| This second vote thing is very dangerous 13:37 - Sep 20 with 14839 views | Lord_Lucan |
Having a second vote after the public has already voiced their will would damage any idea of democracy that we have far more than any damage that Brexit will do.
We lost the vote so we have to move on. The so called Chequers deal is pathetic, it will end up with us keeping all the bad things and stripping the good things.
If we are out we are out and they should have gone for a hard Brexit immediately, Brussels would never compromise with a fair deal otherwise the dominoes would start to fall. Believe me they will want to set up trade deals immediately once the line has been drawn but whilst we are acting like a big girls blouse we are going to get shafted. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:43 - Sep 20 with 5067 views | Vaughan8 |
I am definitely not an expert in this at all, so I have limited knowledge, but a few people who I have spoken to who voted Out said they would now vote In.
The problem with the vote is voting Out, you didn't know what you were actually voting for. Once a deal is in place, you know the pro's and con's
However, its like going through a divorce until the end and then pulling out. Its never going to work. We are going to leave the EU one way or another. I just hope people who voted out don't regret it when we have some hard times, or maybe its all "scaremongering". We will find out! |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:46 - Sep 20 with 5049 views | Radlett_blue |
The first vote was arguably the dangerous event, a complete misjudgement by Cameron.
A referendum is generally advisory rather than binding, which makes sense if the vote is very close. However, yes, another referendum would muddy the waters even further, unless it resulted in a resounding "leave" (the polls got this one badly wrong the first time).
Negotiating with the EU in public was always going to be difficult, especially as there agenda is to make leaving appear so unpalatable that other countries are deterred from trying to secede.
A strong leader with a decisive majority (massive error by May calling an unnecessary election) could have played hard ball with the EU & probably come up with a mcuh better deal. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:49 - Sep 20 with 5029 views | Currie10 |
This. End of.
Did any of us have a FULL idea at what we were voting for? Probably not.
Did the lie campaign talk rubbish with the NHS? Absolutely yes.
Was it down for the government to spend £12 million in leaflets to persude people to vote remain? Absolutely not.
However, it's done.
One thing that was made clear at the time, was it would be a one time event. Please vote.
People have voted, and more people voted leave than remain.
Millions again, didn't even bother doing a vote. You can't make it up. |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:53 - Sep 20 with 5011 views | Swansea_Blue |
Depending on the referendum question it could be very dangerous. Not because it wouldn’t be undemocratic, but because it would be exploited by Leave as being undemocratic and enlarge the divide, further erode trust, strengthen support for extremist parties, etc.
It’s a nightmare topic for any party, which is probably why Labour were largely silent in the run up to the referendum and since. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:54 - Sep 20 with 5008 views | itfcjoe |
The first vote was just such a shambles and the more you look into the more you realise.
The Cambridge Analytica stuff is mad when you see the targetted advertisng on Social media which was almost fake news in it's honesty and the fact that the day of the vote seems to be the only day in the last 18 months if analysts are to be believed where Out was ahead of In makes me not really care if we have to be undemocratic.
Personally I'm more worried about mine and my kids future than upsetting a few little Englanders who have been brainwashed by the likes of Paul Dacre, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees-Mogg into allowing them to further feather their own nest at the expense of everyone else.
I know plenty that have voted out, and most are sensible enough to discuss and would accepth if deal looks terrible - the ones that aren't are barely worth engaging with as they seem more scared about Muslims and spend their days sharing half truths on Facebook about them and going on about the Will of the People and biggest concern about Brexit failing will be immigrants. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:56 - Sep 20 with 4989 views | Darth_Koont |
I don't think any more could be done to damage the idea of British democracy. It's a sham.
Better instead to put the embarrassing charade of Brexit out of its misery before we end up doing real structural damage to the economy.
And by all means let's have a discussion about how we can improve our democracy. The referendum vote itself was a protest against our democracy or at least the effects of it. I'm sure both sides of the Brexit debate in the general public can agree we deserve better "leaders" and representatives. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:00 - Sep 20 with 4977 views | Weekender |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 13:49 - Sep 20 by Currie10 |
This. End of.
Did any of us have a FULL idea at what we were voting for? Probably not.
Did the lie campaign talk rubbish with the NHS? Absolutely yes.
Was it down for the government to spend £12 million in leaflets to persude people to vote remain? Absolutely not.
However, it's done.
One thing that was made clear at the time, was it would be a one time event. Please vote.
People have voted, and more people voted leave than remain.
Millions again, didn't even bother doing a vote. You can't make it up. |
All this 'its done' and 'end of' is weak. Its not an argument to persevere with something if that something looks likely to have a detrimental effect. Reversing a decision on the basis of new information is sensible, carrying on regardless of evidence is not.
Ireland have had plenty of second referendums on EU issues without fuss.
P.S I have no idea whether there is sufficient new information or evidence to justify a reversal of the decision or even ask the question. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:00 - Sep 20 with 4975 views | Pinewoodblue |
Nothing here for anyone to disagree with....well said.
Would I be right in thinking you import goods from outside the EU? Will these imports, to your knowledge, be subject to lower duty post Brexit? |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:04 - Sep 20 with 4959 views | Currie10 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:00 - Sep 20 by Weekender |
All this 'its done' and 'end of' is weak. Its not an argument to persevere with something if that something looks likely to have a detrimental effect. Reversing a decision on the basis of new information is sensible, carrying on regardless of evidence is not.
Ireland have had plenty of second referendums on EU issues without fuss.
P.S I have no idea whether there is sufficient new information or evidence to justify a reversal of the decision or even ask the question. |
It would take the absolute michael out of people if we go down the second referendum approach.
Why stop there, why not do the same at the next general election incase people ' aren't sure' again. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:06 - Sep 20 with 4953 views | SpruceMoose |
I think we need to look at the actual terms of our leaving, and then decide. I think anything else is akin to crapping your pants and refusing to go have a wipe. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:07 - Sep 20 with 4965 views | Steve_M |
I think it's more dangerous to crash out of the EU without a deal and decimate what's left of British manufacturing and agriculture. I don't see the repercussions of that being a happy benign society.
The reason there is no deal yet is because May has three mutually incompatible objectives and forcing a hard border in Ireland is also dangerous for reasons obvious to anyone except the more ignorant Brexiters. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 14:34 - Sep 20 with 4886 views | Guthrum |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:07 - Sep 20 by Steve_M |
I think it's more dangerous to crash out of the EU without a deal and decimate what's left of British manufacturing and agriculture. I don't see the repercussions of that being a happy benign society.
The reason there is no deal yet is because May has three mutually incompatible objectives and forcing a hard border in Ireland is also dangerous for reasons obvious to anyone except the more ignorant Brexiters. |
A yes/no public (or even Parliamentary) vote on the deal is the thing most likely to result in a crash exit.
Not only will the hard Brexiteers vote against it, but so will those who don't think it goes far enough and some who are opposed to the whole thing. Thus the result will be "rejection" and the clock runs out of time with nothing agreed. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 14:40 - Sep 20 with 4856 views | SpruceMoose |
| Unfortunately on 14:34 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
A yes/no public (or even Parliamentary) vote on the deal is the thing most likely to result in a crash exit.
Not only will the hard Brexiteers vote against it, but so will those who don't think it goes far enough and some who are opposed to the whole thing. Thus the result will be "rejection" and the clock runs out of time with nothing agreed. |
So what happens then? The chosen few, like myself, escape and the rest...
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:49 - Sep 20 with 4837 views | The_Last_Baron |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:07 - Sep 20 by Steve_M |
I think it's more dangerous to crash out of the EU without a deal and decimate what's left of British manufacturing and agriculture. I don't see the repercussions of that being a happy benign society.
The reason there is no deal yet is because May has three mutually incompatible objectives and forcing a hard border in Ireland is also dangerous for reasons obvious to anyone except the more ignorant Brexiters. |
It's not crashing our Sir, it's moving to WTO rules.
We voted to leave the European Union and that's what we will do, one way or another. If this Government want to stitch us up and reman in all but name there will be dire consequences. The fight will go on and it'll be messy but we will one day leave, if not before the European Union collapses itself.
Brexit Derangement Syndrome is biting hard as the end of March approaches. |  |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:51 - Sep 20 with 4828 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:00 - Sep 20 by Pinewoodblue |
Nothing here for anyone to disagree with....well said.
Would I be right in thinking you import goods from outside the EU? Will these imports, to your knowledge, be subject to lower duty post Brexit? |
I import goods from outside and inside EU and I may be a bit thick but on certain subjects I have half a clue what I am talking about.
Goods from outside EU will almost undoubtedly stay the same. Take China for example which is obviously the main port of export, different goods have different duty percentages depending on many factors but our goods are 6.5% and I would imagine they would stay the same.
Goods we import from Germany and Italy are currently duty free. If Germany decide to impose a 10% duty fee on goods then we (if we have any sense) will do the same on their cars so I expect everything to stay as 0%
There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S
There are as many untruths from remain as their are leave. It may not come as a surprise but even so called experts don't know what they are talking about, they either don't understand or they have a personal agenda. We are dealing with politicians who haven't a clue about business. | |
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| Unfortunately on 14:53 - Sep 20 with 4816 views | pickles110564 |
| Unfortunately on 14:40 - Sep 20 by SpruceMoose |
So what happens then? The chosen few, like myself, escape and the rest...
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The chosen few? You really are up yourself! |  | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:54 - Sep 20 with 4806 views | factual_blue |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:06 - Sep 20 by SpruceMoose |
I think we need to look at the actual terms of our leaving, and then decide. I think anything else is akin to crapping your pants and refusing to go have a wipe. |
I imagine a downvote for your analogy is as good as saying 'I've done that'. |  |
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| Unfortunately on 14:57 - Sep 20 with 4793 views | Guthrum |
| Unfortunately on 14:40 - Sep 20 by SpruceMoose |
So what happens then? The chosen few, like myself, escape and the rest...
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A no deal exit won't be as bad as the worst predictions, nor will it bear out the positive fantasies of the most sanguine hard Brexiteers.
There will be an economic impact, which will last for several years, at least. Predictions I trust (from pro-Brexit sources, as it happens) suggest a 2% drop in GDP, equivalent to a recession. Won't be pleasant, but neither will it be outright disaster.
Our diplomatic position in the world will still be dependent upon others, but more the President of the USA than the Council of Europe. Chances are we'll just become a little bit more irrelevant (except perhaps as a target for Russian and Iranian accusations based on old emnities). Some of that will depend on whether we can keep our permanent seat on the UN Security Council - which is an ongoing (if little talked about) issue nothing to do with Brexit. | |
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| Unfortunately on 14:59 - Sep 20 with 4768 views | BOjK |
| Unfortunately on 14:57 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
A no deal exit won't be as bad as the worst predictions, nor will it bear out the positive fantasies of the most sanguine hard Brexiteers.
There will be an economic impact, which will last for several years, at least. Predictions I trust (from pro-Brexit sources, as it happens) suggest a 2% drop in GDP, equivalent to a recession. Won't be pleasant, but neither will it be outright disaster.
Our diplomatic position in the world will still be dependent upon others, but more the President of the USA than the Council of Europe. Chances are we'll just become a little bit more irrelevant (except perhaps as a target for Russian and Iranian accusations based on old emnities). Some of that will depend on whether we can keep our permanent seat on the UN Security Council - which is an ongoing (if little talked about) issue nothing to do with Brexit. |
2% of GDP is pretty severe. If it is that. Are you volunteering to be amongst the sector who lose their jobs? Or are you just arguing about other people's livelihoods? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 15:04]
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:00 - Sep 20 with 4760 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:51 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I import goods from outside and inside EU and I may be a bit thick but on certain subjects I have half a clue what I am talking about.
Goods from outside EU will almost undoubtedly stay the same. Take China for example which is obviously the main port of export, different goods have different duty percentages depending on many factors but our goods are 6.5% and I would imagine they would stay the same.
Goods we import from Germany and Italy are currently duty free. If Germany decide to impose a 10% duty fee on goods then we (if we have any sense) will do the same on their cars so I expect everything to stay as 0%
There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S
There are as many untruths from remain as their are leave. It may not come as a surprise but even so called experts don't know what they are talking about, they either don't understand or they have a personal agenda. We are dealing with politicians who haven't a clue about business. |
I have missed you Lord, always sensible posts that cover both sides.
I am going on Saturday, first time for over two seasons, quite excited actually. | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:01 - Sep 20 with 4746 views | pickles110564 |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:00 - Sep 20 by Pinewoodblue |
Nothing here for anyone to disagree with....well said.
Would I be right in thinking you import goods from outside the EU? Will these imports, to your knowledge, be subject to lower duty post Brexit? |
So none of the remainers have anything to gain by saying in the EU? | | | |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 with 4736 views | BOjK |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 14:51 - Sep 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I import goods from outside and inside EU and I may be a bit thick but on certain subjects I have half a clue what I am talking about.
Goods from outside EU will almost undoubtedly stay the same. Take China for example which is obviously the main port of export, different goods have different duty percentages depending on many factors but our goods are 6.5% and I would imagine they would stay the same.
Goods we import from Germany and Italy are currently duty free. If Germany decide to impose a 10% duty fee on goods then we (if we have any sense) will do the same on their cars so I expect everything to stay as 0%
There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S
There are as many untruths from remain as their are leave. It may not come as a surprise but even so called experts don't know what they are talking about, they either don't understand or they have a personal agenda. We are dealing with politicians who haven't a clue about business. |
"There are many things that are over-talked and under-talked re Brexit, one of the "Remain" scare storys is that the lorrys will be queued up for miles because of customs. I can't see this happening, I had a container come into Southampton from Shanghai on Monday, the goods are always customs cleared before the boat docks. I don't know how many containers the vessel discharged at Soton but container ships can carry 20,000 containers these days so I am sure customs can deal with a load of HGV,S"
Clearly we can put the infrastructure in place to manage the flow of goods between us and Europe smoothly, but we can't do it overnight. And we can only start when we have agreed what the new arrangement will be.
Just flicking the Vs at Europe, deparing with no deal and no transition period *will* cause this kind of disruption, surely. Even if we are prepared to let any good from Europe in without any checking, you can be reasonably sure the Europeans won't. Hence queues of Lorries in Kent while we untangle the mess. | |
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| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:04 - Sep 20 with 4729 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second vote thing is very dangerous on 15:00 - Sep 20 by pickles110564 |
I have missed you Lord, always sensible posts that cover both sides.
I am going on Saturday, first time for over two seasons, quite excited actually. |
You're a great guy Pickles, have a great day.
I gave this place a wide birth for a while because it resembled an asylum, there are some interesting things on here but sometimes every now and then TWTD completely eats itself and it isn't a great place to be.
Once I read that my new grandson wasn't necessarily a boy despite having a pair of balls and a cock I thought I'd have a break. [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 18:45]
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| Unfortunately on 15:05 - Sep 20 with 4728 views | Guthrum |
| Unfortunately on 14:59 - Sep 20 by BOjK |
2% of GDP is pretty severe. If it is that. Are you volunteering to be amongst the sector who lose their jobs? Or are you just arguing about other people's livelihoods? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 15:04]
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I wasn't in favour of Brexit at all and would now prefer to leave (if we have to) with some kind of deal in place.
Another recession is likely to hit me just as badly as the last one did, resulting in losing my business, having to start again from scratch and leaving me with considerable debt.
I'm merely making the point that we won't become Somalia (or Norway) overnight. | |
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| Unfortunately on 15:08 - Sep 20 with 4702 views | pickles110564 |
| Unfortunately on 14:59 - Sep 20 by BOjK |
2% of GDP is pretty severe. If it is that. Are you volunteering to be amongst the sector who lose their jobs? Or are you just arguing about other people's livelihoods? [Post edited 20 Sep 2018 15:04]
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What about the jobs that have been created since the vote took place?
Remember all the scaremongering on how we would implode?
None of that happened and makes no one believe your side of the debate. | | | |
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