| Pret a Manger allergy death 10:04 - Sep 26 with 6692 views | Crawfordsboot |
The death of 15 year old Natasha is tragic for all concerned and something that would be devastating for any family. As I understand it from press reports Natasha suffered from a number of allergies and a severe allergy to sesame seeds, to the extent that the family carried epipens in case of a reaction.
Whist not wanting to deny the responsibility for food retailers to label products fully in accordance with the law the press comment appears to me to be somewhat one sided. Where someone has a known severe allergy is there no responsibility on the individual/family not to buy general products on the high street or in an airport where they are likely to encounter a degree of uncertainty about ingredients. Alternatively when buying a product surely someone with such known and severe allergy problems should have been primed to automatically ask for confirmation of ingredients.
It seems to me that responsibility here rests not just with Pret A Manger. |  | | |  |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:53 - Sep 26 with 1950 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:50 - Sep 26 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
If it is purely a case of food allergies why can you not go on holiday?
I can understand why you could not get value going fully inclusive, but there is presumably nothing stopping you going abroad and feeding yourself? How is it any different to doing so at home, once you've sourced the relevant ingredients?
Sorry but there are all manner of people that have suffered the same or greater inconvenience in life. It is terrible I agree, I'd love to be able to take the wife out for a nice meal somewhere but we don't trust anybody else to cook for us. The first time she ever became unwell because of cross contamination was arguably the most we've ever paid for a meal out at one of the poshest places we've been to.
If you can't trust places of that calibre then what chance McDonalds, Harvester or the Royal George! |
"If it is purely a case of food allergies why can you not go on holiday? "
Because I'd have to take every last bit of food with me!! Can you imagine, Heathrow or Leeds/Bradford with my 2 suitcases of food and one of clothes - "open your cases please Madam" - oh ...
I couldn't carry them anyway, spinal problems. |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:57 - Sep 26 with 1944 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:49 - Sep 26 by No9 |
Full laballing on packaged foods in the EU is compulsory (one of the reasons Gove, Fox etc. want out) but I am not sure if it is the case in all restaurants but there are, in many notices asking that you tell the staff of any problems.
Full details on packaged stuffs arriving in the EU is also compulsory.
If they get round it I don't know how but can guess
I know here many of these are ingored particularly in Indian & Chinese retaurants which is why one such owner was jailed for quite a long time |
That was the guy who died?
He had a nut allergy, told the staff but they used ground almonds in the sauce anyway?
This is exactly why we do not eat out unfortunately. How many times have you been to a restaurant and had the wrong thing served or it has been cold or not cooked properly? These are utter basics. The correct food, cooked and warm.
Which is why we do not eat out anymore. With the amount of orders being taken and information flying about, on 3 or 4 occasions (before we stopped) such requests were overlooked and food served with the things that would cause the allergy. A couple of times it was obvious. Other times not. |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:59 - Sep 26 with 1938 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:53 - Sep 26 by Ryorry |
"If it is purely a case of food allergies why can you not go on holiday? "
Because I'd have to take every last bit of food with me!! Can you imagine, Heathrow or Leeds/Bradford with my 2 suitcases of food and one of clothes - "open your cases please Madam" - oh ...
I couldn't carry them anyway, spinal problems. |
If the issue is spinal problems then that is different.
If it is purely a case of food then what is stopping you buying food in Spain, America, France, Germany or India?
We go abroad regularly. We find a local supermarket and buy bread, fruit, vegetables, rice etc and cook meals. Of course it's not as relaxing as just being able to eat out but it's far better than never going on holiday. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:03 - Sep 26 with 1931 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:49 - Sep 26 by No9 |
Full laballing on packaged foods in the EU is compulsory (one of the reasons Gove, Fox etc. want out) but I am not sure if it is the case in all restaurants but there are, in many notices asking that you tell the staff of any problems.
Full details on packaged stuffs arriving in the EU is also compulsory.
If they get round it I don't know how but can guess
I know here many of these are ingored particularly in Indian & Chinese retaurants which is why one such owner was jailed for quite a long time |
Sorry No9 but that is simply not the case.
The loophole is of EU making.
"Sesame is one of 14 allergens that EU regulations stipulate must be listed in pre-packaged food products made off the premises.
But, as with other fast-food providers such as Itsu, Pod and Benugo that prepare their food every day in their own shop kitchens, Pret products do not have to be individually labelled with allergen or ingredient information. The “loophole” is supposed to free small, independent sandwich shops and cafe chains from onerous regulations" |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:05 - Sep 26 with 1930 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:53 - Sep 26 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
At no point has anyone suggested you would be at fault for buying something incorrectly labelled. The point being made was that Pret may have been complying with legal requirements, which means that the law should change, not that they have sold sesame seed bread with a label that lists ingredients but missed that one off. |
But they have, that's the problem.
"Where someone has a known severe allergy is there no responsibility on the individual/family not to buy general products on the high street or in an airport where they are likely to encounter a degree of uncertainty about ingredients."
"I simply raise the point that there is also an element of personal responsibility in this sort of situation."
"If in fact anyone has allergies that are serious enough to threaten their health let alone life that should lead anyone / family to take extraordinary measure to ensure safety which would often mean not buying anything other than fresh fruit from any retailer."
"I also feel the individual concerned should never risk something so serious on the word of anyone else. "
You yourself have made some good points though, countering that very thing! eg -
"The strange thing here is why they used sesame seeds, a known allergen, in their bread in the first place.
Entirely foreseeable that, even with appropriate signage, a serious issue could occur, which would hammer their reputation far more than some slightly differently tasting bread." | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:13 - Sep 26 with 1921 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 14:59 - Sep 26 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
If the issue is spinal problems then that is different.
If it is purely a case of food then what is stopping you buying food in Spain, America, France, Germany or India?
We go abroad regularly. We find a local supermarket and buy bread, fruit, vegetables, rice etc and cook meals. Of course it's not as relaxing as just being able to eat out but it's far better than never going on holiday. |
It is NOT spinal problems that's the problem, it's the fact that I'd have to take all my own food in the first place. Yes I could buy some local meat, fish, potatoes and olive oil, there might even be some veg I can tolerate such as courgettes & lettuce - but *everything* else I'd have to buy there would be subject to exactly the same risks as buying off supermarket shelves in the UK - in fact riskier, as the manufacturers/retailers would likely be mostly unknown to me.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion advising me you know how to run my life better than I do, but as I said earlier, a self-catering "holiday" isn't really one for me. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:39 - Sep 26 with 1892 views | christiand |
From what I understand from this story, the sesame seeds weren't visible and were blended within the dough of the sandwich. She wouldn't have been able to tell until she had bitten into it and then had a reaction. If the labelling had been completely explicit of all ingredients, then this tragic incident could have been avoided. Appreciate that Pret perhaps weren't in breach legally with their labelling, but this really can't sit right with those that have allergies, especially when ingredients are discreetly used in products? [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 15:46]
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 16:19 - Sep 26 with 1884 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:13 - Sep 26 by Ryorry |
It is NOT spinal problems that's the problem, it's the fact that I'd have to take all my own food in the first place. Yes I could buy some local meat, fish, potatoes and olive oil, there might even be some veg I can tolerate such as courgettes & lettuce - but *everything* else I'd have to buy there would be subject to exactly the same risks as buying off supermarket shelves in the UK - in fact riskier, as the manufacturers/retailers would likely be mostly unknown to me.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion advising me you know how to run my life better than I do, but as I said earlier, a self-catering "holiday" isn't really one for me. |
You're the one that seems to have taken the exception.
We manage perfectly fine abroad. Almost all of the supermarket packaging in Europe has the ingredients in English as well, with allergies highlighted. There are also a large number of brands that are shared with UK supermarkets.
As you seem to have not tried it, I fear you may well have an over-exaggerated sense of danger, which is fully understandable, but if anything only highlights the very point of the OP's post, which is not to risk anything at all where you cannot be certain.
Freshly produced food is going to be a lot riskier than buying something pre-packed. We are very used to taking pre-packed sandwiches to us to the airport to eat when we arrive there or just before and if we need to top up whilst there, it would be something that is pre-packaged and has no chance of having any of her particular allergens in (eg a bag of crisps, an apple or a mars bar).
Not ideal but certainly a lot safer than a freshly prepared sandwich which could have been cross contaminated with anything. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 16:21 - Sep 26 with 1880 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:39 - Sep 26 by christiand |
From what I understand from this story, the sesame seeds weren't visible and were blended within the dough of the sandwich. She wouldn't have been able to tell until she had bitten into it and then had a reaction. If the labelling had been completely explicit of all ingredients, then this tragic incident could have been avoided. Appreciate that Pret perhaps weren't in breach legally with their labelling, but this really can't sit right with those that have allergies, especially when ingredients are discreetly used in products? [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 15:46]
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Exactly this.
It is absolutely ridiculous to mix a known allergen into dough because even if you make a huge song and dance about it being in the bread, someone at some point is going to miss the signs, forget to put the signs out, be in a hurry and not check or simply eat something someone else has bought for them because it looks like normal bread.
It was entirely foreseeable. With gluten you know not to eat bread. I doubt anyone with a sesame seed allergy would think twice about eating what looks like normal bread without seeds on it. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 16:29 - Sep 26 with 1874 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 16:19 - Sep 26 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
You're the one that seems to have taken the exception.
We manage perfectly fine abroad. Almost all of the supermarket packaging in Europe has the ingredients in English as well, with allergies highlighted. There are also a large number of brands that are shared with UK supermarkets.
As you seem to have not tried it, I fear you may well have an over-exaggerated sense of danger, which is fully understandable, but if anything only highlights the very point of the OP's post, which is not to risk anything at all where you cannot be certain.
Freshly produced food is going to be a lot riskier than buying something pre-packed. We are very used to taking pre-packed sandwiches to us to the airport to eat when we arrive there or just before and if we need to top up whilst there, it would be something that is pre-packaged and has no chance of having any of her particular allergens in (eg a bag of crisps, an apple or a mars bar).
Not ideal but certainly a lot safer than a freshly prepared sandwich which could have been cross contaminated with anything. |
Really not sure why you keep having a pop at me, I haven't taken any "exception".
As I've said, I think you've made several good points in the thread (which I upvoted you for).
As far as holidays are concerned, you do what suits you, and I'll do what suits me that I know I'm safe with. I can't eat "normal" bread eg, as it contains flour improver, which has ascorbic acid in, which I can't tolerate. I know what's OK for me in the UK as various supermarkets and retailers do certain brands that are scrupulous with labelling, and I've eaten various of their products, without problem, in the past. Specialist stuff like that isn't common or easy to find though, even in the UK.
And meat/fish/spuds + some veg isn't going to fill me up or provide enough calories/variety/nutrition. [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 16:32]
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 16:57 - Sep 26 with 1847 views | jeera |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:39 - Sep 26 by christiand |
From what I understand from this story, the sesame seeds weren't visible and were blended within the dough of the sandwich. She wouldn't have been able to tell until she had bitten into it and then had a reaction. If the labelling had been completely explicit of all ingredients, then this tragic incident could have been avoided. Appreciate that Pret perhaps weren't in breach legally with their labelling, but this really can't sit right with those that have allergies, especially when ingredients are discreetly used in products? [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 15:46]
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Quite.
It's almost like sneaking poison unsuspectingly into someone's food.
Put that in there and see what happens.
They've been told time and again and it was only a matter of time before someone died. |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:11 - Sep 26 with 1825 views | BloomBlue |
Sorry if I'm being stupid as I don't know the full story but if my daughter had an allergy to sesame then I would never buy her anything bread related, I would have got her a load of fruit and a couple of mars bars.
Yes the shop has some responsibly for labelling correctly but we all have personal responsibility. |  | | |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:21 - Sep 26 with 1817 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:11 - Sep 26 by BloomBlue |
Sorry if I'm being stupid as I don't know the full story but if my daughter had an allergy to sesame then I would never buy her anything bread related, I would have got her a load of fruit and a couple of mars bars.
Yes the shop has some responsibly for labelling correctly but we all have personal responsibility. |
Which the parents took, as has already been said.
Btw, I'd have a pretty violent allergic reaction to any fruit, not to mention Mars Bars! People who don't have any allergies in the family don't seem to get how extremely difficult it is for some of us to find food which can eat be eaten without problem. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:22 - Sep 26 with 1807 views | jeera |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:11 - Sep 26 by BloomBlue |
Sorry if I'm being stupid as I don't know the full story but if my daughter had an allergy to sesame then I would never buy her anything bread related, I would have got her a load of fruit and a couple of mars bars.
Yes the shop has some responsibly for labelling correctly but we all have personal responsibility. |
"The shop". It's a corporation not some 'shop'.
People with allergies should live on Mars bars and fruit?
She could eat bread. Just not bread laced with sesame.
This isn't difficult. | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:31 - Sep 26 with 1805 views | eireblue |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:11 - Sep 26 by BloomBlue |
Sorry if I'm being stupid as I don't know the full story but if my daughter had an allergy to sesame then I would never buy her anything bread related, I would have got her a load of fruit and a couple of mars bars.
Yes the shop has some responsibly for labelling correctly but we all have personal responsibility. |
It isn't a shop that labels something.
It is people employed by the shop.
They have a personal responsibility as well.
I have been to places and asked for non-dairy stuff, and have been asked is it for allergy reasons or or just being a vegan, since they can't guarantee no allergic reaction. |  | | |
| on 00:23 - Sep 27 with 1743 views | _ |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 00:33 - Sep 27 with 1739 views | Ryorry |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:31 - Sep 26 by eireblue |
It isn't a shop that labels something.
It is people employed by the shop.
They have a personal responsibility as well.
I have been to places and asked for non-dairy stuff, and have been asked is it for allergy reasons or or just being a vegan, since they can't guarantee no allergic reaction. |
Re your last para, I've never actually been asked that question re whether my non-dairy need is because of allergy or veganism, nor been given that reply. Would be interested to know whereabouts you were when you got those responses?
We shouldn't overlook the more fundamental issue of course -
https://www.allergyuk.org/information-and-advice/statistics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28260260
Should add that if ever I start feeling a bit sorry for myself, I remember pretty sharpish that there are people, incl kids, all over the world who don't have anything to eat at all at all, plus others who have insufficient to keep them adequately nourished - not to mention clean water likewise. | |
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| on 09:16 - Sep 27 with 1692 views | _ |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 18:21 - Sep 26 by Ryorry |
Which the parents took, as has already been said.
Btw, I'd have a pretty violent allergic reaction to any fruit, not to mention Mars Bars! People who don't have any allergies in the family don't seem to get how extremely difficult it is for some of us to find food which can eat be eaten without problem. |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 09:40 - Sep 27 with 1689 views | Bueller |
Am I missing something with sesame bread though? Would you not see it on the bread or notice it may have it in it visually as it does not look like normal white bread does it? All Prets sandwiches are wrapped in clear plastic.
Or is it a case the bread was contaminated with sesame?
Before anyone jumps down my throat it is tragic but there are several posts on here of people with allergies and they comment how they have to be vigilant etc which is a shame they cannot trust labels. Without knowing they details just seems they were not at all vigilant when it sounds she had a serious allergy. |  | | |
| on 09:42 - Sep 27 with 1685 views | _ |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 09:40 - Sep 27 by Bueller |
Am I missing something with sesame bread though? Would you not see it on the bread or notice it may have it in it visually as it does not look like normal white bread does it? All Prets sandwiches are wrapped in clear plastic.
Or is it a case the bread was contaminated with sesame?
Before anyone jumps down my throat it is tragic but there are several posts on here of people with allergies and they comment how they have to be vigilant etc which is a shame they cannot trust labels. Without knowing they details just seems they were not at all vigilant when it sounds she had a serious allergy. |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 09:43 - Sep 27 with 1684 views | Bueller |
Thank you for clearing up was not sure. | | | |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 09:56 - Sep 27 with 1681 views | caught-in-limbo |
Of course, good information must be available for people to make informed decisions but when the risk is such that you're effectively putting your life in another person's hands, it's best to avoid those situations if you can.
Sure, legally Prêt a Manger may be in the wrong but it's no real victory for the family if the company is found guilty and fined. |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 10:10 - Sep 27 with 1666 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 09:56 - Sep 27 by caught-in-limbo |
Of course, good information must be available for people to make informed decisions but when the risk is such that you're effectively putting your life in another person's hands, it's best to avoid those situations if you can.
Sure, legally Prêt a Manger may be in the wrong but it's no real victory for the family if the company is found guilty and fined. |
As I mentioned on the first page, if I had such allergies I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to eat any food other than what I prepared myself.
However insufficient the law is Pret seems to have operated within it but I can't equate how someone with allergies so severe could risk human error anyway.
We have all seen the results of kebabs containing pork, steaks being Zebu and so on | |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 11:00 - Sep 27 with 1644 views | WeWereZombies |
| Pret a Manger allergy death on 15:03 - Sep 26 by Lord_Lucan |
Sorry No9 but that is simply not the case.
The loophole is of EU making.
"Sesame is one of 14 allergens that EU regulations stipulate must be listed in pre-packaged food products made off the premises.
But, as with other fast-food providers such as Itsu, Pod and Benugo that prepare their food every day in their own shop kitchens, Pret products do not have to be individually labelled with allergen or ingredient information. The “loophole” is supposed to free small, independent sandwich shops and cafe chains from onerous regulations" |
It's not just fast food outlets, if you go in the Co-op (supposedly good with food) and look at the freshly baked bread you will be hard pushed to find a complete list of ingredients, I had to email them to find out if they used palm oil when baking. They do. |  |
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| Pret a Manger allergy death on 11:06 - Sep 27 with 1640 views | Ryorry |
I replied to things I was challenged on, shocking I know  | |
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