| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week 11:53 - Nov 19 with 4925 views | StokieBlue |
It's from the Guardian so obviously not everyone's cup of tea but:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/19/brexit-class-labour-conser
It's a good and detailed reposte to those who think the Labour leadership would do (or want to do) any better on Brexit or that we need a GE to get them in to sort it all out.
It's a problem without a solution palatable to all sides.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:41 - Nov 19 with 1031 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 12:30 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. I posted this yesterday.
Extending Article 50 for a People’s Vote is not a formality, and might even be refused. It requires the agreement of all 27 EU members and I would imagine the commision weill extract a heavy price.
From what I have read, the EU will not renegotiate the agreement. It's the only deal in town so a new leader or a new government will make no difference. |
That sentiment was echoed by Herman Van Rompuy this morning on Radio 4.
In short, the deal isn't negotiable. He qualified that by saying that the overall wide points cannot be negotiated but there is room for the detail to be. He qualified that further by stating that he's no longer involved but that is his understanding. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:45 - Nov 19 with 1029 views | Steve_M |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:20 - Nov 19 by homer_123 |
I don't disagree with any of that - just pointing out that, as you have a vote, why you should consider the wider potential implications of being part of the EU.
Being part of the EU isn't merely about trade or movement of people. One of the reasons we have never fully thrown our hat into the ring is because we have some fundamental differences in views of what the long term EU plan is about (it's one of the reasons why the likes of Denmark, for example, rather like us being part of the EU, we are often a voice of reason).
However, I've noticed over the more recent past (Cameron's the most recent example) that our ability to influence from the outside appears to have waned - and therefore begs the question of do we wish to part of the 'wider' EU project?
Are we happy to keep the status quo now but at the cost of finding ourselves involved in something we never really signed up for in terms of how the EU works in the future, especially if we can long influence as we once did? Or is it too late and we are now so small and irrelevant that it no longer maters and we should simply just go all in and be done with it? [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 15:22]
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Yes, that is true and whilst the UK is a member, a significant contributor to the budget and one of a only a few EU countries with a sizeable military (despite the best efforts of Osborne's austerity) we remain able to influence that.
I think one big failing of the Brexiters thinking is to pretend we can ignore the EU once we have left both for trade and politically. That's nonsense, economically damaging in the former case, and politically naive in the latter. It would be like Canada pretending it could avoid a close relationship with the USA.
How much has the UK lost influence in Europe and how much is the projection of our virulently anti-EU media? The expansion to 27, and then 28, countries necessitated some of that but, conversely, weakens the move towards federalism and was thus championed by this country. Majority Voting exists in some areas but on nothing that the UK would consider a vital national interest.
In Cameron's case, he undermined his position by picking needless fights on a political whim, taking the Tories out of the EPP one of the more stupid moves and one that - predictably - wasn't sufficient for half of his party.
Stokey raised some of that in a thread last week, my response to that below and the thread if you missed it:
The UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
I do agree on the second point though, the UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
Is this a logical conclusion drawn from Brexit? by Steve_M 16 Nov 2018 8:29I think it's clearly possible to leave, it's just not possible to leave and stay closely integrated with the EU for trade. For all the talk of Global Britain, trade is heavily weighted by geography and our economy is closely integrated with the rest of the EU after 45 years of membership. It's just to disentangle that is difficult and would take years something that very few Brexiter seem prepared to acknowledge even now.
I do agree on the second point though, the UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:49 - Nov 19 with 1022 views | Steve_M |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:41 - Nov 19 by homer_123 |
That sentiment was echoed by Herman Van Rompuy this morning on Radio 4.
In short, the deal isn't negotiable. He qualified that by saying that the overall wide points cannot be negotiated but there is room for the detail to be. He qualified that further by stating that he's no longer involved but that is his understanding. |
I read that as not applying to a different British request or change in negotiating position, so EEA or a pause for a second referendum might still be possible. There is clearly no better deal to be had - despite the claims from Corbyn, McDonnell and the ERG, this weekend - without the UK changing it's stance there. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:51 - Nov 19 with 1019 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:49 - Nov 19 by Steve_M |
I read that as not applying to a different British request or change in negotiating position, so EEA or a pause for a second referendum might still be possible. There is clearly no better deal to be had - despite the claims from Corbyn, McDonnell and the ERG, this weekend - without the UK changing it's stance there. |
Hmm, that would probably be right.
He was certainly clear that this deal is it. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 with 1013 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:49 - Nov 19 by Steve_M |
I read that as not applying to a different British request or change in negotiating position, so EEA or a pause for a second referendum might still be possible. There is clearly no better deal to be had - despite the claims from Corbyn, McDonnell and the ERG, this weekend - without the UK changing it's stance there. |
Seems it isn't just the UK side that isn't happy as Spain are now rejecting to the wording with regards to Gibraltar.
They seem to want it reworded to state that all subsequent deal between EU and UK doesn't include Gibraltar'.
If the EU say that all 27 states have to agree to any subsequent trade deal we are going to be trapped in the backstop until eternity. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 with 1010 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 15:45 - Nov 19 by Steve_M |
Yes, that is true and whilst the UK is a member, a significant contributor to the budget and one of a only a few EU countries with a sizeable military (despite the best efforts of Osborne's austerity) we remain able to influence that.
I think one big failing of the Brexiters thinking is to pretend we can ignore the EU once we have left both for trade and politically. That's nonsense, economically damaging in the former case, and politically naive in the latter. It would be like Canada pretending it could avoid a close relationship with the USA.
How much has the UK lost influence in Europe and how much is the projection of our virulently anti-EU media? The expansion to 27, and then 28, countries necessitated some of that but, conversely, weakens the move towards federalism and was thus championed by this country. Majority Voting exists in some areas but on nothing that the UK would consider a vital national interest.
In Cameron's case, he undermined his position by picking needless fights on a political whim, taking the Tories out of the EPP one of the more stupid moves and one that - predictably - wasn't sufficient for half of his party.
Stokey raised some of that in a thread last week, my response to that below and the thread if you missed it:
The UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
I do agree on the second point though, the UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
Is this a logical conclusion drawn from Brexit? by Steve_M 16 Nov 2018 8:29I think it's clearly possible to leave, it's just not possible to leave and stay closely integrated with the EU for trade. For all the talk of Global Britain, trade is heavily weighted by geography and our economy is closely integrated with the rest of the EU after 45 years of membership. It's just to disentangle that is difficult and would take years something that very few Brexiter seem prepared to acknowledge even now.
I do agree on the second point though, the UK has failed to have a proper debate about it's global role, although at least post-referendum it's been markedly better than beforehand, and relative strength in the world. To me, it is markedly better being a larger country in a regional bloc than trying to make headway as an independent nation. Even the military strength that gave Britain an outsize role has weakened as a result of Cameron and Osborne's 'austerity'.
The EU also needs some form of reckoning about how it evolves, the treaties talk of "Ever closer Union" but that becomes harder the larger it gets, it was one reason why the UK was such a strong proponent of enlargement to include eastern Europe. It probably needs to move more towards "variable geometry" allowing different countries different levels of integration.
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I'd like to think that we could still influence that Steve - our situation now though has been hamstring by Cameron but also, I believe, the current situation of wanting to leave.
There is no guarantee that we'd be allowed back into the EU under our existing terms. That needs approval from all members states I believe? I can see the EU exacting a price for our reversal here? It's in their interests to do so, surely?
I'd also agree that we can't ignore the EU, nor any other sizeable market either financially or politically. I would point out that (depending on how you calculate it) we are the 5th or 9th largest economy in the world. It's not like we'd become a pariah state if we left? The EU would still want to trade with us - as would the US and many other nations and Countries.
I posted a while back my views on how the EU has been covered here in the UK - since the 70s it has very much been anti-EU - I agree. It's once the reasons why our view is always somewhat tainted. I think even the most level headed and objective person in the UK is still slightly biased to the negative on the matter of the EU. There is no doubting at all that the continued expansion hasn't helped - agreed.
I take your point about being a larger nation in a Bloc and I think that works if we can influence. it's here I have concerns - I'm no longer sure we can and will influence - our position has so weakened that I'm not 100% sure we can ever get back to the position of our 'special relationship'. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:01 - Nov 19 with 1008 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Seems it isn't just the UK side that isn't happy as Spain are now rejecting to the wording with regards to Gibraltar.
They seem to want it reworded to state that all subsequent deal between EU and UK doesn't include Gibraltar'.
If the EU say that all 27 states have to agree to any subsequent trade deal we are going to be trapped in the backstop until eternity. |
Do the Spanish have any actual legal grounds to stand on though?
It's basically the same as any deal doesn't include Sheffield.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:01 - Nov 19 with 1007 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Seems it isn't just the UK side that isn't happy as Spain are now rejecting to the wording with regards to Gibraltar.
They seem to want it reworded to state that all subsequent deal between EU and UK doesn't include Gibraltar'.
If the EU say that all 27 states have to agree to any subsequent trade deal we are going to be trapped in the backstop until eternity. |
Indeed - hasn't Turkey been in one for about 20 years? | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:04 - Nov 19 with 1002 views | homer_123 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:01 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
Do the Spanish have any actual legal grounds to stand on though?
It's basically the same as any deal doesn't include Sheffield.
SB |
No different SB but does that mean Spain have to approve though? | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:06 - Nov 19 with 997 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:01 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
Do the Spanish have any actual legal grounds to stand on though?
It's basically the same as any deal doesn't include Sheffield.
SB |
They don't need legal grounds they just need to say no Wasn't the Spanish claims to Gibraltar seen from day one as a potential agreement. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:08 - Nov 19 with 996 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:04 - Nov 19 by homer_123 |
No different SB but does that mean Spain have to approve though? |
I just mean it's not a valid reason to object and I doubt it's legally sound.
It would be the same as German saying they wanted Felixstowe excluded because their cars get imported there.
It's just Spain being petty whilst whistling with their hands in their pockets when their African enclaves are mentioned.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:10 - Nov 19 with 995 views | chicoazul |
The most annoying thing about Brexit is that it has made me admire May's character and seeming-indefatigability. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:13 - Nov 19 with 982 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Seems it isn't just the UK side that isn't happy as Spain are now rejecting to the wording with regards to Gibraltar.
They seem to want it reworded to state that all subsequent deal between EU and UK doesn't include Gibraltar'.
If the EU say that all 27 states have to agree to any subsequent trade deal we are going to be trapped in the backstop until eternity. |
Yet when Gib & Ireland were brought up before the referendum it was going to be easy peasy |  | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:14 - Nov 19 with 979 views | chicoazul |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:00 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Seems it isn't just the UK side that isn't happy as Spain are now rejecting to the wording with regards to Gibraltar.
They seem to want it reworded to state that all subsequent deal between EU and UK doesn't include Gibraltar'.
If the EU say that all 27 states have to agree to any subsequent trade deal we are going to be trapped in the backstop until eternity. |
Spain will almost definitely do what the Germans and French tell them to. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:14 - Nov 19 with 977 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:08 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
I just mean it's not a valid reason to object and I doubt it's legally sound.
It would be the same as German saying they wanted Felixstowe excluded because their cars get imported there.
It's just Spain being petty whilst whistling with their hands in their pockets when their African enclaves are mentioned.
SB |
Spain are apparent pointing out that any subsequent agreement can only include Gibraltar with Spain's approval. A Spanish veto if you will.
No way can May agree to that. | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:15 - Nov 19 with 974 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:14 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Spain are apparent pointing out that any subsequent agreement can only include Gibraltar with Spain's approval. A Spanish veto if you will.
No way can May agree to that. |
Yes and it's a silly position which will get shouted down by the other 26 members.
They voted 99% to stay part of the UK in 2002 - the EU loves a bit of democracy right?
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 16:16]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:21 - Nov 19 with 964 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:14 - Nov 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Spain are apparent pointing out that any subsequent agreement can only include Gibraltar with Spain's approval. A Spanish veto if you will.
No way can May agree to that. |
If Gib leaves the EU with the UK it will be the end for Gib
It can't survive without Spain | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:23 - Nov 19 with 960 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:15 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
Yes and it's a silly position which will get shouted down by the other 26 members.
They voted 99% to stay part of the UK in 2002 - the EU loves a bit of democracy right?
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 16:16]
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How can Gibralter contuinue to function if it leaves the EU with the UK? | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:29 - Nov 19 with 952 views | StokieBlue |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:23 - Nov 19 by No9 |
How can Gibralter contuinue to function if it leaves the EU with the UK? |
In the same way the UK will continue to function?
It's also nothing to do with what we were discussing.
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 16:29]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:31 - Nov 19 with 948 views | chicoazul |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:21 - Nov 19 by No9 |
If Gib leaves the EU with the UK it will be the end for Gib
It can't survive without Spain |
Why not? | |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:34 - Nov 19 with 942 views | footers |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:31 - Nov 19 by chicoazul |
Why not? |
It's a sh1thole, absolute sh1thole. I hope Spain take it back after Brexit. |  |
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| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:44 - Nov 19 with 933 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:29 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue |
In the same way the UK will continue to function?
It's also nothing to do with what we were discussing.
SB [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 16:29]
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It has everything to do with brexit. why would it not have? Gib relies on hundreds of Spanish crossing an open border every day to make the place work. | | | |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:46 - Nov 19 with 931 views | No9 |
| Pretty much sums up what was highlighted on here last week on 16:31 - Nov 19 by chicoazul |
Why not? |
How can it without Spanish workers | | | |
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