| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:02 - Dec 11 with 3660 views | DanTheMan |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 16:42 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I think my point is clear.
I'm saying the media is influencing the number of vegans. You're suggesting the media is responding to the number of vegans. |
Ah I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I'm not sure I'd agree but it would be hard to back up either way. You could maybe search for mentions of the word through archives and then match that against polls of people who say they are vegan but it would be a pretty poor method.
I'm not sure what the media would have to gain by making more people vegan though. Why do you think they would want to make people vegan? |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:03 - Dec 11 with 3656 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 16:42 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I think my point is clear.
I'm saying the media is influencing the number of vegans. You're suggesting the media is responding to the number of vegans. |
What makes you say that? And why would they want to do so? It's not like to soya milk lobby is especially powerful. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:06 - Dec 11 with 3652 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 16:52 - Dec 11 by jeera |
It's a fair point you make. We seem to be sometimes making assumptions that movements on our own doorstep, (no pun/insinuation intended), will automatically be mirrored elsewhere.
Try telling the Argentinians that beef is no longer a viable option. |
The article clearly implies "it's the right thing to do, even though we're reluctant to admit it now", and examples are given of other previously minority opinions which are now accepted and unquestioned majority views.
How would the rest of the world survive without us showing everyone how to be civilised? |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:26 - Dec 11 with 3627 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:02 - Dec 11 by DanTheMan |
Ah I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I'm not sure I'd agree but it would be hard to back up either way. You could maybe search for mentions of the word through archives and then match that against polls of people who say they are vegan but it would be a pretty poor method.
I'm not sure what the media would have to gain by making more people vegan though. Why do you think they would want to make people vegan? |
I don't think it's too difficult to prove that the media moulds culture. And just giving a growing movement a platform in the media is usually enough to spark significant change. There's little point in having a chicken or egg discussion.
I don't think the media is trying to make people vegan, I think the media is the vehicle other groups are using to promote veganism. Why? There are lots of reasons connected to promoting lab-grown meat and controlling meat production, carbon taxation and even just vilifying other countries for not being sufficiently "enlightened" or "appropriately" ethical. There are tons of reasons, and all of them are written off as "tin-hattery" until they reach a critical point of acceptance in society. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:37 - Dec 11 with 3613 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:26 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I don't think it's too difficult to prove that the media moulds culture. And just giving a growing movement a platform in the media is usually enough to spark significant change. There's little point in having a chicken or egg discussion.
I don't think the media is trying to make people vegan, I think the media is the vehicle other groups are using to promote veganism. Why? There are lots of reasons connected to promoting lab-grown meat and controlling meat production, carbon taxation and even just vilifying other countries for not being sufficiently "enlightened" or "appropriately" ethical. There are tons of reasons, and all of them are written off as "tin-hattery" until they reach a critical point of acceptance in society. |
There's a reason they're written off as tin hattery. The meat and dairy influence have far more wealth, power and influence than vegan and/or environmental lobbies. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:48 - Dec 11 with 3608 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:37 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
There's a reason they're written off as tin hattery. The meat and dairy influence have far more wealth, power and influence than vegan and/or environmental lobbies. |
At the moment, yes you're right. But the day when we eat meat grown in a lab instead of real meat is no longer totally unthinkable. Anyone can grow a real chicken, but growing meat in a lab is very specialised. Now you can see how food production can be controlled. History is full of examples of people trying to control access to things because it's a way of making money and controlling people.
I think owning a smallholding and growing vegetables and having goats and chickens is the most environmentally friendly and ethical form of existence, but I can see the day when people who grow their own meat will no longer be able to afford to do so. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:51 - Dec 11 with 3602 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:48 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
At the moment, yes you're right. But the day when we eat meat grown in a lab instead of real meat is no longer totally unthinkable. Anyone can grow a real chicken, but growing meat in a lab is very specialised. Now you can see how food production can be controlled. History is full of examples of people trying to control access to things because it's a way of making money and controlling people.
I think owning a smallholding and growing vegetables and having goats and chickens is the most environmentally friendly and ethical form of existence, but I can see the day when people who grow their own meat will no longer be able to afford to do so. |
Ah yes, I'd forgotten that you think lab grown meat will be used as a form of population control. I don't and also don't see the promotion of veganism as in any way relevant to that in any case. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 18:08]
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:55 - Dec 11 with 3598 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:51 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
Ah yes, I'd forgotten that you think lab grown meat will be used as a form of population control. I don't and also don't see the promotion of veganism as in any way relevant to that in any case. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 18:08]
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No, I don't think lab grown meat WILL be used as a form of population control. I think it COULD be used as a form of food control and I think it's totally unnecessary when there are perfectly acceptable real meat alternatives available. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:11 - Dec 11 with 3580 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:55 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
No, I don't think lab grown meat WILL be used as a form of population control. I think it COULD be used as a form of food control and I think it's totally unnecessary when there are perfectly acceptable real meat alternatives available. |
Totally unnecessary? Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion. Not that it especially bothers me, as a vegan I wouldn't touch the stuff anyway which is why I'm not sure why you think pushing the vegan agenda may be linked to lab grown meat. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 18:11]
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:42 - Dec 11 with 3567 views | monytowbray |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:11 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
Totally unnecessary? Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion. Not that it especially bothers me, as a vegan I wouldn't touch the stuff anyway which is why I'm not sure why you think pushing the vegan agenda may be linked to lab grown meat. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 18:11]
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It’s a big stretch to think some big illuminati businessmen are pushing a vegan agenda via big media to have a punt on lab grown meat. If anything it’s big business getting a hammering from mostly small-to-medium blog/news sites that are openly vegan. The media has a field day if they get a stick to beat veganism with and the meat/dairy industry is trying to pass laws to say anything that isn’t from an animal can’t call itself an animal product.
It’s some very big tin hattery to say otherwise on the concept that some Soros-like figure investing in lab meat is brainwashing us for a punt on making some money in a long winded game. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:44 - Dec 11 with 3559 views | SpruceMoose |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:42 - Dec 11 by monytowbray |
It’s a big stretch to think some big illuminati businessmen are pushing a vegan agenda via big media to have a punt on lab grown meat. If anything it’s big business getting a hammering from mostly small-to-medium blog/news sites that are openly vegan. The media has a field day if they get a stick to beat veganism with and the meat/dairy industry is trying to pass laws to say anything that isn’t from an animal can’t call itself an animal product.
It’s some very big tin hattery to say otherwise on the concept that some Soros-like figure investing in lab meat is brainwashing us for a punt on making some money in a long winded game. |
Unless owning an actual chicken that I can keep in my back garden and eat whenever I please is made illegal I won't be worried. They'll have to take my cold dead chicken from my cold dead hands. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:59 - Dec 11 with 3553 views | DanTheMan |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 17:26 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I don't think it's too difficult to prove that the media moulds culture. And just giving a growing movement a platform in the media is usually enough to spark significant change. There's little point in having a chicken or egg discussion.
I don't think the media is trying to make people vegan, I think the media is the vehicle other groups are using to promote veganism. Why? There are lots of reasons connected to promoting lab-grown meat and controlling meat production, carbon taxation and even just vilifying other countries for not being sufficiently "enlightened" or "appropriately" ethical. There are tons of reasons, and all of them are written off as "tin-hattery" until they reach a critical point of acceptance in society. |
I get your point on the "media moulds culture" but I was talking about this specific example. If you think the media is pushing an agenda rather than reacting to a now mainstream trend then it would be pretty hard to prove (especially given the hatred of it veganism from different sources which prefer the status quo).
Lab grown meat is years away an most of the vegans I talk to (a few in the office) wouldn't eat it anyway. It's not very high on their "agenda" as much as promoting plant based diets.
I'm not sure how carbon taxation comes into this, and even then given that the sort of companies that are generally opposed to this are incredibly large fossil fuel companies again I'm not sure how this fits in with control.
Also I've seen no suggestions that other cultures are "wrong" about eating meat, just that the current way we industrially farm animals is unethical according to them, a point I would find incredibly difficult to argue against. Arguments brought up in the article posted. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:05 - Dec 11 with 3530 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:11 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
Totally unnecessary? Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion. Not that it especially bothers me, as a vegan I wouldn't touch the stuff anyway which is why I'm not sure why you think pushing the vegan agenda may be linked to lab grown meat. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 18:11]
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"Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion."
Really? Are you saying that all meat production is cruel and hugely environmentally damaging? Because I'm not. I said there are alternatives.
I don't think there's anything too unusual about suggesting that pushing a vegan agenda MAY be linked (among other things) to lab produced meat. I think that saying something MAY be linked to something else is hardly the stuff of fantasy. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:23 - Dec 11 with 3510 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:05 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
"Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion."
Really? Are you saying that all meat production is cruel and hugely environmentally damaging? Because I'm not. I said there are alternatives.
I don't think there's anything too unusual about suggesting that pushing a vegan agenda MAY be linked (among other things) to lab produced meat. I think that saying something MAY be linked to something else is hardly the stuff of fantasy. |
Not all meat production, no, but most of it. And your alternative of everyone having a smallholding and rearing their own isn't especially realistic as an alternative.
Personally I do think it's a bit unusual to suggest that two entirely unrelated things may be linked when there is no real evidence of any kind of link or even a feasible hypothesis as to why they'd be linked. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:27 - Dec 11 with 3505 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:05 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
"Current meat production is both cruel and hugely environmentally damaging so I'd dispute that assertion."
Really? Are you saying that all meat production is cruel and hugely environmentally damaging? Because I'm not. I said there are alternatives.
I don't think there's anything too unusual about suggesting that pushing a vegan agenda MAY be linked (among other things) to lab produced meat. I think that saying something MAY be linked to something else is hardly the stuff of fantasy. |
Non-vegans sometimes seem to misunderstand what being a vegan is about.
Yes, all meat production is cruel.
If you look after a cow, in its natural environment for 20 years, it gets to use its milk for its own calves, and it drops dead, from natural causes, feel free to eat it.
If you are not doing that, yep it is cruel.
That’s what being a vegan is.
Vegans don’t push a human agenda.
Many of us advocate for animals that don’t have the voice of a human, but share the same evolutionary capacities.
So vegans “push” an animal agenda.
If you do want to think about vegans as non-meat eaters.
Then there is an interesting analogy to think about.
There are lots more non-smokers about.
That isn’t because there are more vaping companies. |  | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:34 - Dec 11 with 3491 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:42 - Dec 11 by monytowbray |
It’s a big stretch to think some big illuminati businessmen are pushing a vegan agenda via big media to have a punt on lab grown meat. If anything it’s big business getting a hammering from mostly small-to-medium blog/news sites that are openly vegan. The media has a field day if they get a stick to beat veganism with and the meat/dairy industry is trying to pass laws to say anything that isn’t from an animal can’t call itself an animal product.
It’s some very big tin hattery to say otherwise on the concept that some Soros-like figure investing in lab meat is brainwashing us for a punt on making some money in a long winded game. |
Crikey! What's normal profit seeking business got to do with illuminati and George Soros?
I offered "lab grown meat" as one of "tons of reasons" why a vegan agenda might be being pushed right now. But you seem to have taken that one thing as being my reason for trying to understand why a vegan agenda is being promoted.
I've got no problem with vegans or discussions on veganism. Until today, I've only entered one thread on veganism in the forum. But the reactions from you and Herbivore to my comments seem very defensive and has even resulted in you (both) misreading/misinterpreting what I said.
The point I'm making is little more than this: the media has in recent years changed its stance on veganism quite dramatically. Veganism was roundly ridiculed in much the same way as homeopathic medicine is. I think there must be a reason for this. I'm not sure exactly what it is, so I suggested a few possibilities, but I really am in the dark about it. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:46 - Dec 11 with 3484 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:23 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
Not all meat production, no, but most of it. And your alternative of everyone having a smallholding and rearing their own isn't especially realistic as an alternative.
Personally I do think it's a bit unusual to suggest that two entirely unrelated things may be linked when there is no real evidence of any kind of link or even a feasible hypothesis as to why they'd be linked. |
woah, woah, woah!
Where did I suggest "everyone having a smallholding and rearing their own" meat as an alternative?
It's impossible to have an exchange of ideas with someone totally misrepresents what you say and who reads "could" as "will".
Lab grown meat has been hailed as a more sustainable meat supply for the long-term future, and one reason for adopting a vegan diet is planet sustainability. I really don't understand how you can claim these things as "entirely unrelated".
I have no problem with vegans in the slightest, but your reactionary remarks and tendency to read plain moderate English into extreme opinions is not helpful. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 20:51]
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:48 - Dec 11 with 3478 views | SpruceMoose |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:34 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Crikey! What's normal profit seeking business got to do with illuminati and George Soros?
I offered "lab grown meat" as one of "tons of reasons" why a vegan agenda might be being pushed right now. But you seem to have taken that one thing as being my reason for trying to understand why a vegan agenda is being promoted.
I've got no problem with vegans or discussions on veganism. Until today, I've only entered one thread on veganism in the forum. But the reactions from you and Herbivore to my comments seem very defensive and has even resulted in you (both) misreading/misinterpreting what I said.
The point I'm making is little more than this: the media has in recent years changed its stance on veganism quite dramatically. Veganism was roundly ridiculed in much the same way as homeopathic medicine is. I think there must be a reason for this. I'm not sure exactly what it is, so I suggested a few possibilities, but I really am in the dark about it. |
Well, let's be honest, veganism has the ability to keep you alive, whereas homeopathic medicine doesn't. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:55 - Dec 11 with 3469 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:48 - Dec 11 by SpruceMoose |
Well, let's be honest, veganism has the ability to keep you alive, whereas homeopathic medicine doesn't. |
I have not compared homeopathy to veganism, nor have I expressed any view on homeopathy so I'm not sure what your point it?
Is it International Poor Comprehension Day today? | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:59 - Dec 11 with 3460 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:34 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Crikey! What's normal profit seeking business got to do with illuminati and George Soros?
I offered "lab grown meat" as one of "tons of reasons" why a vegan agenda might be being pushed right now. But you seem to have taken that one thing as being my reason for trying to understand why a vegan agenda is being promoted.
I've got no problem with vegans or discussions on veganism. Until today, I've only entered one thread on veganism in the forum. But the reactions from you and Herbivore to my comments seem very defensive and has even resulted in you (both) misreading/misinterpreting what I said.
The point I'm making is little more than this: the media has in recent years changed its stance on veganism quite dramatically. Veganism was roundly ridiculed in much the same way as homeopathic medicine is. I think there must be a reason for this. I'm not sure exactly what it is, so I suggested a few possibilities, but I really am in the dark about it. |
One thing you maybe forgetting.
There are not many people that are vegan by birth.
Most of us used to be full on meat eaters. I loved BBQs and rare steaks.
I realized it was wrong.
The internet made it much easier to communicate with other vegans, and be a vegan, through very early internet shopping sites.
Read the article again.
More people are realizing, that a vegan is someone going out of their way, against the norm, to do less harm in the world.
There has been a lot of criticism of the way certain vegan organizations raise awareness, using celebraties, undercover operations, social media, silly PR stunts etc.
Maybe the simple answer is, those campaigns are helping. | | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:07 - Dec 11 with 3453 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:27 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
Non-vegans sometimes seem to misunderstand what being a vegan is about.
Yes, all meat production is cruel.
If you look after a cow, in its natural environment for 20 years, it gets to use its milk for its own calves, and it drops dead, from natural causes, feel free to eat it.
If you are not doing that, yep it is cruel.
That’s what being a vegan is.
Vegans don’t push a human agenda.
Many of us advocate for animals that don’t have the voice of a human, but share the same evolutionary capacities.
So vegans “push” an animal agenda.
If you do want to think about vegans as non-meat eaters.
Then there is an interesting analogy to think about.
There are lots more non-smokers about.
That isn’t because there are more vaping companies. |
"If you look after a cow, in its natural environment for 20 years, it gets to use its milk for its own calves, and it drops dead, from natural causes, feel free to eat it. "
As I understand it, a species reared over decades for farming has no natural environment.
Your point seems to fall apart there. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:07 - Dec 11 with 3452 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:46 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
woah, woah, woah!
Where did I suggest "everyone having a smallholding and rearing their own" meat as an alternative?
It's impossible to have an exchange of ideas with someone totally misrepresents what you say and who reads "could" as "will".
Lab grown meat has been hailed as a more sustainable meat supply for the long-term future, and one reason for adopting a vegan diet is planet sustainability. I really don't understand how you can claim these things as "entirely unrelated".
I have no problem with vegans in the slightest, but your reactionary remarks and tendency to read plain moderate English into extreme opinions is not helpful. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 20:51]
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The issue here is that you don't understand veganism if you think it has any relevance to lab grown meat. There are other issues too but I won't go into those. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:11 - Dec 11 with 3443 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:07 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
"If you look after a cow, in its natural environment for 20 years, it gets to use its milk for its own calves, and it drops dead, from natural causes, feel free to eat it. "
As I understand it, a species reared over decades for farming has no natural environment.
Your point seems to fall apart there. |
No. You have re-enforced the point. | | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:11 - Dec 11 with 3443 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:07 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
The issue here is that you don't understand veganism if you think it has any relevance to lab grown meat. There are other issues too but I won't go into those. |
People don't only adopt a vegan diet for reasons of animal welfare, do they?
People can adopt a vegan diet for reasons of planet sustainability too, can't they? | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:19 - Dec 11 with 3434 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:59 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
One thing you maybe forgetting.
There are not many people that are vegan by birth.
Most of us used to be full on meat eaters. I loved BBQs and rare steaks.
I realized it was wrong.
The internet made it much easier to communicate with other vegans, and be a vegan, through very early internet shopping sites.
Read the article again.
More people are realizing, that a vegan is someone going out of their way, against the norm, to do less harm in the world.
There has been a lot of criticism of the way certain vegan organizations raise awareness, using celebraties, undercover operations, social media, silly PR stunts etc.
Maybe the simple answer is, those campaigns are helping. |
"One thing you maybe forgetting. "
What have I said that makes you think I've forgotten anything?
"There are not many people that are vegan by birth."
Yep, I imagine the %age is absolutely miniscule - I don't get your point.
"Most of us used to be full on meat eaters. I loved BBQs and rare steaks.
I realized it was wrong."
I'm cool for you to think it's wrong. I don't think it is, but I think we're both decent enough to respect each others' views here.
"Read the article again.
More people are realizing, that a vegan is someone going out of their way, against the norm, to do less harm in the world."
Why? What do you think I've failed to understand? | |
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