| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:26 - Dec 11 with 3635 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 18:59 - Dec 11 by DanTheMan |
I get your point on the "media moulds culture" but I was talking about this specific example. If you think the media is pushing an agenda rather than reacting to a now mainstream trend then it would be pretty hard to prove (especially given the hatred of it veganism from different sources which prefer the status quo).
Lab grown meat is years away an most of the vegans I talk to (a few in the office) wouldn't eat it anyway. It's not very high on their "agenda" as much as promoting plant based diets.
I'm not sure how carbon taxation comes into this, and even then given that the sort of companies that are generally opposed to this are incredibly large fossil fuel companies again I'm not sure how this fits in with control.
Also I've seen no suggestions that other cultures are "wrong" about eating meat, just that the current way we industrially farm animals is unethical according to them, a point I would find incredibly difficult to argue against. Arguments brought up in the article posted. |
Fair enough Dan.
I'm surprised you can't see a connection between carbon taxation and the promotion of a vegan diet, but i'll leave it there with you.
I'm more interested in hearing the opinions of the vegans on the board. I think they see me as someone opposing their decision to be vegans and I'm trying to understand why. Perhaps they've spent most of their time as vegans being defensive about their choice and feel that in criticising Mitchell's article I am anti-vegan - but I'm not? Perhaps they assume I have a contrary opinion about everything. Again, I don't. I have problems with veganism or vegans and broadly support their reasons for their choice. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:30 - Dec 11 with 3628 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:11 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
No. You have re-enforced the point. |
Perhaps you can tell me what a cow's natural environment is then and how anyone could "look after a cow" and it still be in a natural environment. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:31 - Dec 11 with 3627 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:11 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
People don't only adopt a vegan diet for reasons of animal welfare, do they?
People can adopt a vegan diet for reasons of planet sustainability too, can't they? |
The latter category would be better described as eating a plant based diet. And the article on this thread is talking about ethical veganism, not rejecting meat and dairy on environmental grounds. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:31 - Dec 11 with 3627 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:19 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
"One thing you maybe forgetting. "
What have I said that makes you think I've forgotten anything?
"There are not many people that are vegan by birth."
Yep, I imagine the %age is absolutely miniscule - I don't get your point.
"Most of us used to be full on meat eaters. I loved BBQs and rare steaks.
I realized it was wrong."
I'm cool for you to think it's wrong. I don't think it is, but I think we're both decent enough to respect each others' views here.
"Read the article again.
More people are realizing, that a vegan is someone going out of their way, against the norm, to do less harm in the world."
Why? What do you think I've failed to understand? |
Two areas you are missing.
Smoking/Vaping.
It is not my view you should respect. |  | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:38 - Dec 11 with 3617 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:31 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
The latter category would be better described as eating a plant based diet. And the article on this thread is talking about ethical veganism, not rejecting meat and dairy on environmental grounds. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be saying that if someone lives off a diet which is technically vegan, they themselves are not vegan unless there reason for doing so is "ethical veganism". | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:41 - Dec 11 with 3612 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:30 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Perhaps you can tell me what a cow's natural environment is then and how anyone could "look after a cow" and it still be in a natural environment. |
In the same way I have seen elephants in the wild.
And some elephants are protected from hunting, released from traps etc.
They are in the wild, possibly looked after, not farmed, if they drop dead from natural causes, sure feel free to eat it.
Although with elephants, there is some evidence that they may mourn. So in that case, I would wait until the full family has left.
There are a few areas of wild cattle, buffalo are near enough wild hairy cows.
Cows don’t need humans to survive. | | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:48 - Dec 11 with 3606 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:31 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
Two areas you are missing.
Smoking/Vaping.
It is not my view you should respect. |
I'm afraid we seem to be talking at cross purposes here. Something tells me you think I've got an anti vegan agenda and you are defending your position with a well-practised argument.
I'm not.
You haven't really answered my questions and to be honest, I'm even having problems understanding your vaping/smoking analogy, because as far as I can see it isn't really relevant to my views stated in this thread.
I do respect your view. Don't you respect mine? Do you even know what my view is? | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:49 - Dec 11 with 3605 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:38 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be saying that if someone lives off a diet which is technically vegan, they themselves are not vegan unless there reason for doing so is "ethical veganism". |
Unfortunately, when discussions come to the point where you are discussing definitions, I lose interest.
I would recommend the Vegan Society for a definition.
And books by Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Richard Ryder, can help explain the ethics behind being a vegan. I also like some of articles by Yuval Noah Harari. | | | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:59 - Dec 11 with 3602 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:48 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I'm afraid we seem to be talking at cross purposes here. Something tells me you think I've got an anti vegan agenda and you are defending your position with a well-practised argument.
I'm not.
You haven't really answered my questions and to be honest, I'm even having problems understanding your vaping/smoking analogy, because as far as I can see it isn't really relevant to my views stated in this thread.
I do respect your view. Don't you respect mine? Do you even know what my view is? |
No, it is not cross purposes. I am a vegan, and you are not. To put it more bluntly, it is not my view I care whether you respect or not.
As with many of these discussions, people don’t really understand what a vegan is.
Hence the suggesting, to maybe read in more depth about it, if genuinely interested.
It is what I did.
Smoking/Vaping is the analogy I would use to think about your statement from earlier
“Whole societies or cultures don't make changes to culturally acceptable behaviours practised over decades, if not centuries, because of a sudden realisation that it's no longer the right thing to do.”
Smoking in Ireland, and other places.
And I would also add deference to priests in Ireland, as another example, but smoking is a better one I think. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 22:03]
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:05 - Dec 11 with 3595 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:41 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
In the same way I have seen elephants in the wild.
And some elephants are protected from hunting, released from traps etc.
They are in the wild, possibly looked after, not farmed, if they drop dead from natural causes, sure feel free to eat it.
Although with elephants, there is some evidence that they may mourn. So in that case, I would wait until the full family has left.
There are a few areas of wild cattle, buffalo are near enough wild hairy cows.
Cows don’t need humans to survive. |
Good, you're being less cryptic now but your first two lines still read like they have been generated by a bot.
I'll assume I'm talking to a real person and press on.
You say "Cows don’t need humans to survive", well I think they do. I think they need humans to give them an enormous amount of space and leave them alone if they are to live in their natural environment. I don't think people are going to give cows that luxury, so unfortunately the poor cows will have to be farmed or be allowed to die out.
Unfortunately, unless cows are farmed, I can't see any reason for anyone to prevent them from going extinct. I get the feeling you would consider that as a fair price to pay to avoid future suffering.
In much of the world where there are buffalo, they are either milked, or worked. To my knowledge there are no buffalo in Europe which are neither farmed nor worked. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:10 - Dec 11 with 3584 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:49 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
Unfortunately, when discussions come to the point where you are discussing definitions, I lose interest.
I would recommend the Vegan Society for a definition.
And books by Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Richard Ryder, can help explain the ethics behind being a vegan. I also like some of articles by Yuval Noah Harari. |
LOL, it wasn't me who brought up the point of terminology.
Again, you seem to want to give me an education on veganism. But for the 10th time, I'm cool with vegans and veganism and I respect their choices - but this isn't the point I was making with regards to the OP.
Perhaps this is why threads about veganism go into multiple pages - people are talking at cross purposes. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:12 - Dec 11 with 3580 views | eireblue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:05 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Good, you're being less cryptic now but your first two lines still read like they have been generated by a bot.
I'll assume I'm talking to a real person and press on.
You say "Cows don’t need humans to survive", well I think they do. I think they need humans to give them an enormous amount of space and leave them alone if they are to live in their natural environment. I don't think people are going to give cows that luxury, so unfortunately the poor cows will have to be farmed or be allowed to die out.
Unfortunately, unless cows are farmed, I can't see any reason for anyone to prevent them from going extinct. I get the feeling you would consider that as a fair price to pay to avoid future suffering.
In much of the world where there are buffalo, they are either milked, or worked. To my knowledge there are no buffalo in Europe which are neither farmed nor worked. |
Game over when you play the bot, not the auto generated message. | | | |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:22 - Dec 11 with 3570 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:59 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
No, it is not cross purposes. I am a vegan, and you are not. To put it more bluntly, it is not my view I care whether you respect or not.
As with many of these discussions, people don’t really understand what a vegan is.
Hence the suggesting, to maybe read in more depth about it, if genuinely interested.
It is what I did.
Smoking/Vaping is the analogy I would use to think about your statement from earlier
“Whole societies or cultures don't make changes to culturally acceptable behaviours practised over decades, if not centuries, because of a sudden realisation that it's no longer the right thing to do.”
Smoking in Ireland, and other places.
And I would also add deference to priests in Ireland, as another example, but smoking is a better one I think. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 22:03]
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Unfortunately, I don't think your smoking / vaping analogy is a very good one. Yes, people did "make changes to culturally acceptable behaviours practised over decades" but not because of a sudden realisation that they were doing the wrong thing, nor because there was irrefutable evidence that smoking was bad for them, nor because the price of cigarettes rose so dramatically, but because they were prohibited from smoking in many public places and establishments were fined for allowing smoking on their premises. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:25 - Dec 11 with 3566 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:12 - Dec 11 by eireblue |
Game over when you play the bot, not the auto generated message. |
I really don't see the difference. And now we're back to definitions again. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:38 - Dec 11 with 3555 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:22 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Unfortunately, I don't think your smoking / vaping analogy is a very good one. Yes, people did "make changes to culturally acceptable behaviours practised over decades" but not because of a sudden realisation that they were doing the wrong thing, nor because there was irrefutable evidence that smoking was bad for them, nor because the price of cigarettes rose so dramatically, but because they were prohibited from smoking in many public places and establishments were fined for allowing smoking on their premises. |
"because they were prohibited from smoking in many public places and establishments were fined for allowing smoking on their premises."
I think his point was "And was this caused by vaping companies?"
It's just as logical conclusion as you wondering if veganism is being pushed by lab-grown meat entrepreneurs.
Maybe there is no conspiracy. Maybe the whimsical article in the OP was just David Mitchell's own lighthearted views. Maybe he's not promoting anything. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:43 - Dec 11 with 3549 views | jeera |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 20:55 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
I have not compared homeopathy to veganism, nor have I expressed any view on homeopathy so I'm not sure what your point it?
Is it International Poor Comprehension Day today? |
What is Intentional Poor Comprehension Day? |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:51 - Dec 11 with 3537 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:38 - Dec 11 by BrixtonBlue |
"because they were prohibited from smoking in many public places and establishments were fined for allowing smoking on their premises."
I think his point was "And was this caused by vaping companies?"
It's just as logical conclusion as you wondering if veganism is being pushed by lab-grown meat entrepreneurs.
Maybe there is no conspiracy. Maybe the whimsical article in the OP was just David Mitchell's own lighthearted views. Maybe he's not promoting anything. |
To be fair, I've said on more than one occasion in this thread that I think there is a pro vegan agenda being pushed and that I don't know who is behind it.
In reality there could be tons of interest groups and almost certainly it is not one alone - people have picked the lab-meat comment from a list of others and have taken that apart as if it's my theory in isolation. I never suggested such a thing.
I'm surprised no one is echoing my point that vegans have gone from being totally ignored or ridiculed to ethically sound planet savers in the media. That for me is the story, not "understanding what it means to be an ethical vegan".
As a "minority group member" in just about every aspect of my life, I know from experience that it's easy to be on the defensive when people express opinions about topics close to your heart - I think that explains all the misinterpretations to my comments from nearly everybody in this thread. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:56 - Dec 11 with 3530 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:43 - Dec 11 by jeera |
What is Intentional Poor Comprehension Day? |
InterNATIONal Poor Comprehension Day is the day in the year when everybody across all nations decides to show really poor levels of comprehension of what others say.
It normally falls in the middle of Sense of Humour Bypass Week.
EDIT: Permission to whoosh myself, please.
Well played. [Post edited 11 Dec 2018 23:00]
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:00 - Dec 11 with 3524 views | BrixtonBlue |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:51 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
To be fair, I've said on more than one occasion in this thread that I think there is a pro vegan agenda being pushed and that I don't know who is behind it.
In reality there could be tons of interest groups and almost certainly it is not one alone - people have picked the lab-meat comment from a list of others and have taken that apart as if it's my theory in isolation. I never suggested such a thing.
I'm surprised no one is echoing my point that vegans have gone from being totally ignored or ridiculed to ethically sound planet savers in the media. That for me is the story, not "understanding what it means to be an ethical vegan".
As a "minority group member" in just about every aspect of my life, I know from experience that it's easy to be on the defensive when people express opinions about topics close to your heart - I think that explains all the misinterpretations to my comments from nearly everybody in this thread. |
I haven't misinterpreted anything you've said.
You have suggested there might be a conspiracy going on - that veganism is being pushed for some benefit to someone else (you wondered about lab-meat). This implies David Mitchell is in some way part of this conspiracy.
Maybe veganism isn't being pushed. Maybe it's just naturally evolved into something more popular and is thus popping up in the media more.
There are lots of things that are popular in the media. Are they all part of their own conspiracies and being deliberately pushed? | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:12 - Dec 11 with 3515 views | monytowbray |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:00 - Dec 11 by BrixtonBlue |
I haven't misinterpreted anything you've said.
You have suggested there might be a conspiracy going on - that veganism is being pushed for some benefit to someone else (you wondered about lab-meat). This implies David Mitchell is in some way part of this conspiracy.
Maybe veganism isn't being pushed. Maybe it's just naturally evolved into something more popular and is thus popping up in the media more.
There are lots of things that are popular in the media. Are they all part of their own conspiracies and being deliberately pushed? |
I wanna know what major papers and news sites are pushing vegan agendas so i can subscribe. Most news sources seem obsessed with finding obscure holes to imply we’re hypocrites or claiming we’re all violent militants who may stab you in the night for having chicken for dinner. |  |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:17 - Dec 11 with 3512 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 21:38 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be saying that if someone lives off a diet which is technically vegan, they themselves are not vegan unless there reason for doing so is "ethical veganism". |
There is a difference between being a vegan and eating a plant based diet. I'm not sure what you're struggling with here. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:21 - Dec 11 with 3508 views | Herbivore |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 22:51 - Dec 11 by caught-in-limbo |
To be fair, I've said on more than one occasion in this thread that I think there is a pro vegan agenda being pushed and that I don't know who is behind it.
In reality there could be tons of interest groups and almost certainly it is not one alone - people have picked the lab-meat comment from a list of others and have taken that apart as if it's my theory in isolation. I never suggested such a thing.
I'm surprised no one is echoing my point that vegans have gone from being totally ignored or ridiculed to ethically sound planet savers in the media. That for me is the story, not "understanding what it means to be an ethical vegan".
As a "minority group member" in just about every aspect of my life, I know from experience that it's easy to be on the defensive when people express opinions about topics close to your heart - I think that explains all the misinterpretations to my comments from nearly everybody in this thread. |
Or you've just been talking gubbins maybe? | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:39 - Dec 11 with 3499 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:00 - Dec 11 by BrixtonBlue |
I haven't misinterpreted anything you've said.
You have suggested there might be a conspiracy going on - that veganism is being pushed for some benefit to someone else (you wondered about lab-meat). This implies David Mitchell is in some way part of this conspiracy.
Maybe veganism isn't being pushed. Maybe it's just naturally evolved into something more popular and is thus popping up in the media more.
There are lots of things that are popular in the media. Are they all part of their own conspiracies and being deliberately pushed? |
I don't agree with your use of the word "conspiracy", not because you have necessarily used it incorrectly, but because it is usually used incorrectly and has come to mean something else. I deliberately avoided the word but you have applied it to my comments.
I would say that my own diet is largely vegan. I certainly eat one vegan meal a day, sometimes two. I have no qualms about buying cow's milk however, which I buy raw from a local farmer. The meat I buy is also from small local farmers, I know what the animals eat and how they live (but not how they die).
I appreciate the enormous efforts that having a vegan lifestyle entails, and I only know the half of it, - the diet side.
The commitment towards a vegan existence is not taken lightly - it certainly doesn't bear the hallmarks of being a fad. While veganism isn't new, I suspect the number of vegans has risen exponentially in the last few years and that surprises me in view of the efforts required to live such a lifestyle. There is certainly a lot of vegan lifestyle promotion going on, especially in the UK, and it's true that promoting a vegan lifestyle goes against the interests of big business. So, I'm a little curious as to why the media is giving such a generous platform to veganism.
Print media is not high profit and is often loss making, For that reason the press generally looks after its sponsors (preferring not to promote stuff which is anathema to the interests of big business).
All profit-making businesses do what they can create the conditions where profits are maximised - influencing public opinion through the media is an obvious part of their marketing strategy - you don't have to see it as a conspiracy to accept that. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 00:14 - Dec 12 with 3483 views | caught-in-limbo |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 23:17 - Dec 11 by Herbivore |
There is a difference between being a vegan and eating a plant based diet. I'm not sure what you're struggling with here. |
I'm not struggling at all. I realise that if you're a leathers-wearing Harley rider who eats a plant-based diet, you're not a vegan. I am trying to understand the extent of the word vegan especially with regards to the term "vegan diet". Ethical vegans seem keen to call the food part of their existence "vegan" but don't extend the same terminally to people who eat the same food but carry leather handbags. Here in the Basque Country, "vegan" restaurants are popping up everywhere, and while they're not packed with bikers, they are popular with the leather boots and leather handbag brigade.
I'm interested in the media - I follow it very closely, and I'm very sensitive to what they talk about and why.
I'm just exploring the language of veganism here in this thread. | |
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| I'm just going to leave this here... on 08:49 - Dec 12 with 3437 views | jjblue84 |
| I'm just going to leave this here... on 14:09 - Dec 11 by DanTheMan |
OK, specifically which rights of "others" have been infringed by a hospital offering vegan meals as a choice? |
It’s not a choice, the law is being threatened...one day it will sink in... |  | | |
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