| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... 16:09 - Dec 10 with 2520 views | Darth_Koont |
Ireland, with the support of the EU, isn't going to suffer for the actions of a larger neighbour. A neighbour that's historically used to getting its own way.
The backstop won't be negotiable in any real sense. And rightly so for the people both sides of the border.
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:13 - Dec 10 with 2505 views | BlueBadger |
Cobbler would clearly like to see the return of sectarian violence in NI, I see. |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:17 - Dec 10 with 2490 views | giant_stow |
There does seem to be a inescapable clash between keeping the border as open as possible and the UK's right to self-determination.
obviously i hope Brexit is cancelled - problem solved, but surely you can see how a hard brexiter would say sod em'. |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:19 - Dec 10 with 2479 views | BlueBadger |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:17 - Dec 10 by giant_stow |
There does seem to be a inescapable clash between keeping the border as open as possible and the UK's right to self-determination.
obviously i hope Brexit is cancelled - problem solved, but surely you can see how a hard brexiter would say sod em'. |
Because they're ignorant, stupid and don't really give a short stuff about other people? [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:20]
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:20 - Dec 10 with 2471 views | factual_blue |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:13 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Cobbler would clearly like to see the return of sectarian violence in NI, I see. |
Talking cobblers. |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:28 - Dec 10 with 2443 views | giant_stow |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:19 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Because they're ignorant, stupid and don't really give a short stuff about other people? [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:20]
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I'll let a brexit bod argue back to that! [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:29]
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:31 - Dec 10 with 2433 views | BlueBadger |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:28 - Dec 10 by giant_stow |
I'll let a brexit bod argue back to that! [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:29]
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Ironically enough, the arguments in favour of a hard Brexit would merely serve to confirm my point... | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:32 - Dec 10 with 2435 views | homer_123 |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:28 - Dec 10 by giant_stow |
I'll let a brexit bod argue back to that! [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:29]
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Let's face it neither rabid remainers or rabid brexiteers come out of this well.
Sadly, Badgers comments simply illustrate why any reasoned discussion or debate between anyone and everyone isn't possible. [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:32]
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:03 - Dec 10 with 2279 views | connorscontract |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:32 - Dec 10 by homer_123 |
Let's face it neither rabid remainers or rabid brexiteers come out of this well.
Sadly, Badgers comments simply illustrate why any reasoned discussion or debate between anyone and everyone isn't possible. [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:32]
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I don't know what a "rabid remainer" is.
I'm a fully committed remainer. I'm an internationalist. I'd love to have the option to spend a lot of my retirement in Spain. I speak French conversationally, enough German to get by in an emergency and have picked up restaurant Spanish. I have European friends.
Does all that make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bigger, rules based trading bloc who respect workers rights and have tight food safety laws make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bloc big enough to look the USA in the eye when it is run by a volatile egotist and serial contract breaker, rather than beg him for deals in desperation on our own, make me rabid?
Does considering the Northern Ireland peace deal, The Good Friday Agreement, which was brought about by the hard work of both Conservative and Labour Prime Ministers and their teams, the biggest political achievement of the second half of the 20th Century in Britain, and not wanting to throw it away because Jacob Rees-Mogg "reckons" he could then do some great deals for magic beans in far away lands, make me rabid?
Does not wanting a return to sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and the threat of Irish Republican terrorism on the mainland, make me rabid?
I voted remain. I don't think I'm rabid, but you might, but one thing I'm certain of is that you can't pin any of this mess on me.
Leave voters voted for Brexit.
May triggered Article 50, then threw away her majority.
They are to blame for this mess. |  | | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:11 - Dec 10 with 2270 views | Darth_Koont |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:03 - Dec 10 by connorscontract |
I don't know what a "rabid remainer" is.
I'm a fully committed remainer. I'm an internationalist. I'd love to have the option to spend a lot of my retirement in Spain. I speak French conversationally, enough German to get by in an emergency and have picked up restaurant Spanish. I have European friends.
Does all that make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bigger, rules based trading bloc who respect workers rights and have tight food safety laws make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bloc big enough to look the USA in the eye when it is run by a volatile egotist and serial contract breaker, rather than beg him for deals in desperation on our own, make me rabid?
Does considering the Northern Ireland peace deal, The Good Friday Agreement, which was brought about by the hard work of both Conservative and Labour Prime Ministers and their teams, the biggest political achievement of the second half of the 20th Century in Britain, and not wanting to throw it away because Jacob Rees-Mogg "reckons" he could then do some great deals for magic beans in far away lands, make me rabid?
Does not wanting a return to sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and the threat of Irish Republican terrorism on the mainland, make me rabid?
I voted remain. I don't think I'm rabid, but you might, but one thing I'm certain of is that you can't pin any of this mess on me.
Leave voters voted for Brexit.
May triggered Article 50, then threw away her majority.
They are to blame for this mess. |
Homer has an issue with the EU.
Although how he still has more of an issue with the EU than with our own so-called representatives and democratic system is anyone's guess. | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:34 - Dec 10 with 2244 views | StNeotsBlue |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:19 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Because they're ignorant, stupid and don't really give a short stuff about other people? [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:20]
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I'm a Labour voter but you seem to ignore the fact that Corbyn was pro leave.
I voted remain but feel a lot of the current mess is down to a lack of leadership from both sides of the House. The Tories take the brunt as they are wearing the captains armband at the moment but Labour have been equally culpable as there has been no clear message as to why we should stay or go from day one.
[Post edited 10 Dec 2018 23:45]
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:51 - Dec 10 with 2207 views | jaseitfc |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 16:19 - Dec 10 by BlueBadger |
Because they're ignorant, stupid and don't really give a short stuff about other people? [Post edited 10 Dec 2018 16:20]
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That sounds quite ignorant in itself.
Attitudes like this really make you see why we lost the first referendum | | | |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:01 - Dec 11 with 2191 views | jeera |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:51 - Dec 10 by jaseitfc |
That sounds quite ignorant in itself.
Attitudes like this really make you see why we lost the first referendum |
It is a problem that people will rebel if they feel they're not being listened to.
Even if they're unsure what it is they're rebelling against.
I despair at some of the things I see posted on the likes of FB; people I usually like.
Most of it really is embarrassing nonsense, but I understand they feel that way because they've been told to shut up maybe once too often. That's the trouble with politics and politicians though, people feel ignored with worthless views and sooner or later will grasp their chance to be heard.
Our last 2 successive governments are to blame. Blair with his ever-patronising tone, and Cameron with his. |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:13 - Dec 11 with 2174 views | BlueBadger |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:34 - Dec 10 by StNeotsBlue |
I'm a Labour voter but you seem to ignore the fact that Corbyn was pro leave.
I voted remain but feel a lot of the current mess is down to a lack of leadership from both sides of the House. The Tories take the brunt as they are wearing the captains armband at the moment but Labour have been equally culpable as there has been no clear message as to why we should stay or go from day one.
[Post edited 10 Dec 2018 23:45]
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I think I've been pretty clear on my views as to how the Dear Leader has been approaching the whole clusterf*ck whilst apparently in 'opposition'. | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:16 - Dec 11 with 2167 views | BlueBadger |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:51 - Dec 10 by jaseitfc |
That sounds quite ignorant in itself.
Attitudes like this really make you see why we lost the first referendum |
No, attitudes like(and I'm paraphrasing somewhat here) 'god aren;t foreigners terrible, we could fund the NHS even though every vote I've ever taken shows that up as a lie, there's fairies and unicorns to come if you vote for us and did I mention that I hate foreigners' are the reason that Leave won. | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:19 - Dec 11 with 2158 views | StNeotsBlue |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:16 - Dec 11 by BlueBadger |
No, attitudes like(and I'm paraphrasing somewhat here) 'god aren;t foreigners terrible, we could fund the NHS even though every vote I've ever taken shows that up as a lie, there's fairies and unicorns to come if you vote for us and did I mention that I hate foreigners' are the reason that Leave won. |
Well quite. But people like yourself taking such a patronising and one-eyed view are equally unhelpful. | | | |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:37 - Dec 11 with 2139 views | XYZ |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:19 - Dec 11 by StNeotsBlue |
Well quite. But people like yourself taking such a patronising and one-eyed view are equally unhelpful. |
I like to see racists "called out" at every opportunity myself.
Why should we be sensitive to their feelings? | | | |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 01:00 - Dec 11 with 2117 views | StNeotsBlue |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 00:37 - Dec 11 by XYZ |
I like to see racists "called out" at every opportunity myself.
Why should we be sensitive to their feelings? |
On this thread where are the racists? | | | |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 01:29 - Dec 11 with 2089 views | XYZ |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 01:00 - Dec 11 by StNeotsBlue |
On this thread where are the racists? |
I didn't say there were or were not - I was supporting the acceptability of calling out racism.
Badger made the point that votes made for racist reasons have caused the problems over the UK land border with Ireland.
Cause and effect. | | | |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 07:56 - Dec 11 with 1946 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/07/brexit-referendum-remain-leave-corbyn-racism-
" Why should the European Union do tomorrow the opposite of what it has been doing for the past forty-three years? Don’t the terms of Cameron’s February 19 deal – terms that would have been put into effect had Remain won – further confirm that the European Union is ready to make as many concessions as it needs to as long as it can further entrench neoliberal policies?
How credible is it to claim that staying in would improve social standards when everyone knows that the EUÂ is designed to relentlessly promote its founding principle of “free and undistorted competition,” a principle that entails free movement for capital, the deregulation of the labor market, and the privatization of public services?
And if there was the slightest possibility that a Remain vote could trigger the relaxation of austerity policies, why then was Remain almost unanimously supported by the City, big business, and of course by David Cameron and the majority of his Cabinet and Parliamentary Party – with the generous help of guests like Obama and the usual European Union extras?" |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:06 - Dec 11 with 1942 views | homer_123 |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:03 - Dec 10 by connorscontract |
I don't know what a "rabid remainer" is.
I'm a fully committed remainer. I'm an internationalist. I'd love to have the option to spend a lot of my retirement in Spain. I speak French conversationally, enough German to get by in an emergency and have picked up restaurant Spanish. I have European friends.
Does all that make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bigger, rules based trading bloc who respect workers rights and have tight food safety laws make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bloc big enough to look the USA in the eye when it is run by a volatile egotist and serial contract breaker, rather than beg him for deals in desperation on our own, make me rabid?
Does considering the Northern Ireland peace deal, The Good Friday Agreement, which was brought about by the hard work of both Conservative and Labour Prime Ministers and their teams, the biggest political achievement of the second half of the 20th Century in Britain, and not wanting to throw it away because Jacob Rees-Mogg "reckons" he could then do some great deals for magic beans in far away lands, make me rabid?
Does not wanting a return to sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and the threat of Irish Republican terrorism on the mainland, make me rabid?
I voted remain. I don't think I'm rabid, but you might, but one thing I'm certain of is that you can't pin any of this mess on me.
Leave voters voted for Brexit.
May triggered Article 50, then threw away her majority.
They are to blame for this mess. |
Hey connor.
No, none of those things make you a 'rabid remainer' in any sense at all. I completely respect all the points and observations you make in your post.
The point I'm raising is two fold.
1. There are, absolutely, people on either side that are completely staunch in their views but their is a difference between having a strong view and/ or opinions but being open to others perspectives and viewpoints. In this debate (and to be fair in life in general) - people struggle immensely with this - it's their 'world view' or not at all - there is no longer room for debate, discussion and even attempting to see things from other peoples point of view. It's here where I, honestly, believe that we have people who are 'rabid' on both sides - who simply shout, vent and holler their position and views without thought or regard for other perspectives.
2. Badges post (Badge, I don't mean to pick on you or offend you). This post illustrates a wider concern I have about how we, as people and individuals, now position and views others who have a differing perspective to our own - it's the wording and phrasing which is so negative and deoragtory. Again, I respect the fact that Badge has that view and I also respect the fact Badge has the right to express those views but, for me at least, it's these sorts of posts, which is not unique to TWTD but social media and wider media outlets in general that stifle debate, discussion, openess and proper thinking and debate as it stigmatises etc.
Finally, just a final thought '...but one thing I'm certain of is that you can't pin any of this mess on me'. That's a really interesting comment. Genuinely interested as to what you mean by this?
My view is that those that wish us to remain within the EU are partly at fault for the mess we are in. But this goes back a long way in British history. In short, the EU, within the UK media space is, again, talked about, typically, in nothing but negative narrative. In addition, I believe it is well documented that Cameron and the remain party and also those that felt so strongly we should remain, completely mis-read the political landscape and wider general feeling within the UK and absolutely didn't do enough to position remain as the best choice - it's certainly one of the factors why remain didn't win.
So, I would say that, remainers are absolutely partly to blame for where we are at. Of course, this might not be you personally connor. But the wider remain campaign utterly failed in the very first instance. | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:12 - Dec 11 with 1938 views | homer_123 |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:11 - Dec 10 by Darth_Koont |
Homer has an issue with the EU.
Although how he still has more of an issue with the EU than with our own so-called representatives and democratic system is anyone's guess. |
Hey DK.
All good?
If I may, can I ask you to indicate where I have said that I have a bigger issue with the EU than our own democratic system?
I think I've made my views pretty clear. The reason we are in this mess is down to the fact that we, as a country, are paying the price for an internal political issue that Cameron decided to try and resolve with a referundum. It should never have taken place - in addition, Cameron assumed Remain would win and utterly mis-read the UK and wider political landscape.
My latest post yesterday said that this is a whole clustf*ck of a situation made worse by our inept, ineffective PM and sitting party. This is made worse by a useless opposition party, the lack of any other political options. As I say, I've been clear.
You've made an incorrect assumption that concerns I have with the EU outweighing concerns I have about our own, broken, political system.
I've stated before, I do have genuine concerns about where the EU is headed, what our role in that future should be and that it should be discussed and debated but in the current climate (and even before the referendum) it's a subject that, sadly, cannot be debated fairly within the UK.
As always, appreciate discussing with you.
H. | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:25 - Dec 11 with 1912 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:12 - Dec 11 by homer_123 |
Hey DK.
All good?
If I may, can I ask you to indicate where I have said that I have a bigger issue with the EU than our own democratic system?
I think I've made my views pretty clear. The reason we are in this mess is down to the fact that we, as a country, are paying the price for an internal political issue that Cameron decided to try and resolve with a referundum. It should never have taken place - in addition, Cameron assumed Remain would win and utterly mis-read the UK and wider political landscape.
My latest post yesterday said that this is a whole clustf*ck of a situation made worse by our inept, ineffective PM and sitting party. This is made worse by a useless opposition party, the lack of any other political options. As I say, I've been clear.
You've made an incorrect assumption that concerns I have with the EU outweighing concerns I have about our own, broken, political system.
I've stated before, I do have genuine concerns about where the EU is headed, what our role in that future should be and that it should be discussed and debated but in the current climate (and even before the referendum) it's a subject that, sadly, cannot be debated fairly within the UK.
As always, appreciate discussing with you.
H. |
Good work Homer......but deep down they know you are thick and racist!  ....and chose to ignore all of this...and more.
http://hurryupharry.org/2018/05/09/55-arguments-for-lexit/ | |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:47 - Dec 11 with 1893 views | Kropotkin123 |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 23:03 - Dec 10 by connorscontract |
I don't know what a "rabid remainer" is.
I'm a fully committed remainer. I'm an internationalist. I'd love to have the option to spend a lot of my retirement in Spain. I speak French conversationally, enough German to get by in an emergency and have picked up restaurant Spanish. I have European friends.
Does all that make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bigger, rules based trading bloc who respect workers rights and have tight food safety laws make me rabid?
Does wanting to be part of a bloc big enough to look the USA in the eye when it is run by a volatile egotist and serial contract breaker, rather than beg him for deals in desperation on our own, make me rabid?
Does considering the Northern Ireland peace deal, The Good Friday Agreement, which was brought about by the hard work of both Conservative and Labour Prime Ministers and their teams, the biggest political achievement of the second half of the 20th Century in Britain, and not wanting to throw it away because Jacob Rees-Mogg "reckons" he could then do some great deals for magic beans in far away lands, make me rabid?
Does not wanting a return to sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and the threat of Irish Republican terrorism on the mainland, make me rabid?
I voted remain. I don't think I'm rabid, but you might, but one thing I'm certain of is that you can't pin any of this mess on me.
Leave voters voted for Brexit.
May triggered Article 50, then threw away her majority.
They are to blame for this mess. |
Part of the reason why there is a big clash is because the EU inherently gives to some and not to others. It increases competition amongst the population with lower income.
Eg Millions of low income workers came to the UK since joining the EU, they mainly took low income work. They worked hard, did well, got their rewards. But this was at the expense of lower income workers, by increasing supply at a lower wage, demand and wages are kept in check.
At the same time, those that are privileged enough to take advantage economically and culturally, such as yourself or even myself, benefited. Eg International retirement (free movement), language learning and international trade. These are concerns that richer people in society have.
The argument will come back that that lower income section of society will get more in subsidies, etc. Whilst that may be true, it isn't what they experience, what they feel. They have experienced almost a decade of cuts coupled with zero hour contracts and competition for work.
A "rabid" remainer or leaver is simply someone who refuses to contemplate that someone on either side might have valid reason for their opinion. Half the country are not racist. Those protesting for or against appear equally stupid and often bigoted to me.
For the record I am abstained from voting, as I don't think it should be put to a vote. It is a question or micro and macros economics that very few people in this country will have a clue about, including myself. The most disappointing thing is how badly represented either viewpoint is in parliament. |  |
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| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 09:54 - Dec 11 with 1843 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| One key value of the EU to member states is at play here ... on 08:47 - Dec 11 by Kropotkin123 |
Part of the reason why there is a big clash is because the EU inherently gives to some and not to others. It increases competition amongst the population with lower income.
Eg Millions of low income workers came to the UK since joining the EU, they mainly took low income work. They worked hard, did well, got their rewards. But this was at the expense of lower income workers, by increasing supply at a lower wage, demand and wages are kept in check.
At the same time, those that are privileged enough to take advantage economically and culturally, such as yourself or even myself, benefited. Eg International retirement (free movement), language learning and international trade. These are concerns that richer people in society have.
The argument will come back that that lower income section of society will get more in subsidies, etc. Whilst that may be true, it isn't what they experience, what they feel. They have experienced almost a decade of cuts coupled with zero hour contracts and competition for work.
A "rabid" remainer or leaver is simply someone who refuses to contemplate that someone on either side might have valid reason for their opinion. Half the country are not racist. Those protesting for or against appear equally stupid and often bigoted to me.
For the record I am abstained from voting, as I don't think it should be put to a vote. It is a question or micro and macros economics that very few people in this country will have a clue about, including myself. The most disappointing thing is how badly represented either viewpoint is in parliament. |
Excellent post ....... the EU is a neo liberal/conservative capitalist institution with lots of 'middle ground' (in a Macron sense) fanboys!
Cognitive dissonance everywhere! The Emperor has no clothes ! | |
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