| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today 13:40 - Dec 12 with 11018 views | tractordownsouth |
Oh dear |  |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 20:17 - Dec 12 with 2173 views | syntaxerror |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 20:13 - Dec 12 by Oxford_Blue |
They speak sense.
A bad deal is a bad deal.
No deal is fine. |
No deal isn't fine in the long term, in terms of the Irish issue. Eventually a hard border will happen, unless we decide to allow free trade with the entire world.
And that means no protection of any sort for British industry and agriculture, which isn't productive enough to compete with emerging economies. It will make the rich richer and the poor poorer. |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said on 23:34 - Dec 12 with 2117 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 18:39 - Dec 12 by BloomBlue |
Again if you want to believe the fake news from remain then I'm not going to change your mind.
Same as when we had the vote to stay with the £ or take the € , businsses leaders, economists warned about if we stayed with the £ it would result in increased cost, the supply chain from Europe would grind to a halt, thankfully lots of people knew the experts were talking cr$p and voted to keep the £ and project fear were proved wrong ie the supply chain didnt grind to a halt and the fact the experts had lied |
'lots of people knew the experts were talking cr$p'  |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 01:37 - Dec 13 with 2093 views | m14_blue |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 18:39 - Dec 12 by BloomBlue |
Again if you want to believe the fake news from remain then I'm not going to change your mind.
Same as when we had the vote to stay with the £ or take the € , businsses leaders, economists warned about if we stayed with the £ it would result in increased cost, the supply chain from Europe would grind to a halt, thankfully lots of people knew the experts were talking cr$p and voted to keep the £ and project fear were proved wrong ie the supply chain didnt grind to a halt and the fact the experts had lied |
When exactly did people vote to keep the £? |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said on 05:35 - Dec 13 with 2064 views | Benters2 |
| Two of my colleagues have said on 15:26 - Dec 12 by BlueBadger |
Trouble is, those solutions involve doing things that the hardcore gammon element don't like, though. [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 15:28]
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Why can’t you talk to people in a normal way, without getting angry and resulting in childish name calling? | | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 07:29 - Dec 13 with 2046 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 14:48 - Dec 12 by Lord_Lucan |
How EXACTLY does no deal break the Good Friday agreement. |
The GFA works because it removed the border thus making the Irish Nationalists feel they are living in a united Ireland. Unionists happy as still part of the UK. It’s still a fragile peace, divisions aren’t far below the surface. Put a hard border back in and the checks it brings etc. and the illusion of a united Ireland is lost on the Nationalists and a potential return of people killing each other again. |  |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 09:51 - Dec 13 with 2013 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 07:29 - Dec 13 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
The GFA works because it removed the border thus making the Irish Nationalists feel they are living in a united Ireland. Unionists happy as still part of the UK. It’s still a fragile peace, divisions aren’t far below the surface. Put a hard border back in and the checks it brings etc. and the illusion of a united Ireland is lost on the Nationalists and a potential return of people killing each other again. |
Firstly The WTO have said they will not enforce a hard border.
Secondly, I can't find anything in the Good Friday agreement about hard borders, all I can find is free movement of people and that would remain.
So the legal aspect of things I stand by what I have previously said.
Having said that I am the kind of man who reserves the right to change his mind and after speaking with my Northern Irish friend just now it seems there is no option but to have a hard border and this would be a problem
Without a hard border NI would in effect be a cash cow - a smugglers paradise if you like. The only way to stop this is a hard border and according to Paddy a hard border will definitely result in a return to violence. He asked if I were prepared to put my child on the border crossing in uniform - fair point I thought.
I then suggested that an electronic border could be put up for customs purposes but he says that it will be ignored and smugglers are happy if only 50% of their goods get through.
My man in NI is how you say "In the know" so I take on board what he says. He has told me to Google Slab Murphy, which I will do.
So this is going to run and run. A situation without an answer me thinks. |  |
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| Two of my colleagues have said on 09:19 - Dec 14 with 1946 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Two of my colleagues have said on 16:52 - Dec 12 by manchego |
The EU does not want a hard border in Ireland. Are you making stuff up again ? Or just buying into the "EU are bullies" B.S.
"Britain would have to enforce controls on the Irish border if the U.K. leaves the European Union without a deal, Chancellor Philip Hammond said Monday"
"Under World Trade Organization rules, London would have no choice but to reinstate checks."
From the Irish Times:
What backstop has the EU proposed?
Brussels believes a hard border can be avoided and the Belfast Agreement upheld if Northern Ireland remains fully aligned with the EU’s customs union and parts of the single market after Brexit.
This would mean matching the rules north and south of the Border for customs, energy, environmental regulations and laws covering agriculture and fisheries.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:58]
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Not sure what you mean by again - but happy to hold my hands up and admit I got this one wrong |  |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 10:05 - Dec 14 with 1934 views | connorscontract |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 09:51 - Dec 13 by Lord_Lucan |
Firstly The WTO have said they will not enforce a hard border.
Secondly, I can't find anything in the Good Friday agreement about hard borders, all I can find is free movement of people and that would remain.
So the legal aspect of things I stand by what I have previously said.
Having said that I am the kind of man who reserves the right to change his mind and after speaking with my Northern Irish friend just now it seems there is no option but to have a hard border and this would be a problem
Without a hard border NI would in effect be a cash cow - a smugglers paradise if you like. The only way to stop this is a hard border and according to Paddy a hard border will definitely result in a return to violence. He asked if I were prepared to put my child on the border crossing in uniform - fair point I thought.
I then suggested that an electronic border could be put up for customs purposes but he says that it will be ignored and smugglers are happy if only 50% of their goods get through.
My man in NI is how you say "In the know" so I take on board what he says. He has told me to Google Slab Murphy, which I will do.
So this is going to run and run. A situation without an answer me thinks. |
Sorry, I wasn't around to answer your question as to why the GFA would be broken by a No Deal Brexit.
Both you and West Stander make central points.
West Stander points out that much of the GFA is about allowing a symbolic United Ireland to exist in as many ways as possible. I have previously described it as a Quantum Solution: NI is both/and/either/or part of a United Ireland and part of the United Kingdom.
After the GFA Eire passed laws allowing any person who had been or was yet to be born in NI to claim Irish Nationality. So a child born in NI is Schrödinger's citizen: s/he is both and neither British and Irish, and the box is only opened when s/he applies for their first passport.
The GFA doesn't mention borders, as you rightly state. This is because both nations were members of the EU and so freedom of movement of people and goods was already a legal obligation.
However the border was, in places, fenced with barbed wire, had watchtowers looming over it, concrete blocks to filter traffic and armed checkpoints and stop and search for security reasons. These "Security Installations" (they also existed as "Peace Walls" between communities in some cities and towns in NI) are dealt with in the GFA. They are to be removed.
Since then, a farmer from Eire has been able to drive freely to a livestock market in NI without queueing and having guns waved in his/her face, or asked awkward questions or been treated with suspicion. The same for a Sales Rep from Belfast heading South. Or a Hen Party going to Dublin. Or people from Co Cork wanting to visit Antrim etc etc.
If there is a No Deal Brexit then a hard border, as you say, is inevitable. Customs and Passport control. Even if the pre-EU right to travel for Irish Citizens to the North and vice versa is re-established, this wouldn't apply to the thousands of French, Polish or Italians etc etc living in Eire. Or Nigerians or Canadians or whoever. And if No Deal is a "reclaiming control of our borders" Brexit then multiply this.
And, as you rightly point out, No Deal means a different duty and regulatory environment, and the huge potential for smuggling.
So there will be queues at the border, filtering through checkpoints, possibly armed police, suspicious questions.
It will look a lot like how things were pre-GFA. It won't look like a United Ireland to Nationalists. Security installations will need to be built, breaching the GFA. Both in spirit and letter No Deal breaks the GFA on this point.
But there is a bigger one, too
The GFA enshrines certain principles. One is that no change to the legal status of Northern Ireland's citizens can be made without the agreement of both the UK and Irish Governments. And secondly, that any such change must be conditional upon self-determination.
No Deal means that the British and Irish Governments have failed to agree. The bilateral principle at the heart of the GFA is breached.
Northern Ireland voted to Remain. The principle of self-determination is breached.
Reinstatement of Security Installations at the border
Destruction of the Bi-lateral principle
Enforcement of the will of the English majority over the right to self-determination set out in the GFA.
Three huge ways that a No Deal breaks the GFA.
Ultimately it's not about whether lawyers can prove that this or that clause has been breached. It will be about how the ten most antagonistic Republican former paramilitaries choose to respond when the first checkpoint is built on the border.
As your friend points out, who would want to be the isolated individual in uniform at that Border Post? | | | |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 11:08 - Dec 14 with 1917 views | No9 |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 18:39 - Dec 12 by BloomBlue |
Again if you want to believe the fake news from remain then I'm not going to change your mind.
Same as when we had the vote to stay with the £ or take the € , businsses leaders, economists warned about if we stayed with the £ it would result in increased cost, the supply chain from Europe would grind to a halt, thankfully lots of people knew the experts were talking cr$p and voted to keep the £ and project fear were proved wrong ie the supply chain didnt grind to a halt and the fact the experts had lied |
Who do you buy your electricity / gas from? | | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 11:35 - Dec 14 with 1901 views | blueislander |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 11:08 - Dec 14 by No9 |
Who do you buy your electricity / gas from? |
You are wasting your time asking him anything. He never seems to reply or engage in debate. He just spouts Moggisms. | | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 11:46 - Dec 14 with 1890 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 10:05 - Dec 14 by connorscontract |
Sorry, I wasn't around to answer your question as to why the GFA would be broken by a No Deal Brexit.
Both you and West Stander make central points.
West Stander points out that much of the GFA is about allowing a symbolic United Ireland to exist in as many ways as possible. I have previously described it as a Quantum Solution: NI is both/and/either/or part of a United Ireland and part of the United Kingdom.
After the GFA Eire passed laws allowing any person who had been or was yet to be born in NI to claim Irish Nationality. So a child born in NI is Schrödinger's citizen: s/he is both and neither British and Irish, and the box is only opened when s/he applies for their first passport.
The GFA doesn't mention borders, as you rightly state. This is because both nations were members of the EU and so freedom of movement of people and goods was already a legal obligation.
However the border was, in places, fenced with barbed wire, had watchtowers looming over it, concrete blocks to filter traffic and armed checkpoints and stop and search for security reasons. These "Security Installations" (they also existed as "Peace Walls" between communities in some cities and towns in NI) are dealt with in the GFA. They are to be removed.
Since then, a farmer from Eire has been able to drive freely to a livestock market in NI without queueing and having guns waved in his/her face, or asked awkward questions or been treated with suspicion. The same for a Sales Rep from Belfast heading South. Or a Hen Party going to Dublin. Or people from Co Cork wanting to visit Antrim etc etc.
If there is a No Deal Brexit then a hard border, as you say, is inevitable. Customs and Passport control. Even if the pre-EU right to travel for Irish Citizens to the North and vice versa is re-established, this wouldn't apply to the thousands of French, Polish or Italians etc etc living in Eire. Or Nigerians or Canadians or whoever. And if No Deal is a "reclaiming control of our borders" Brexit then multiply this.
And, as you rightly point out, No Deal means a different duty and regulatory environment, and the huge potential for smuggling.
So there will be queues at the border, filtering through checkpoints, possibly armed police, suspicious questions.
It will look a lot like how things were pre-GFA. It won't look like a United Ireland to Nationalists. Security installations will need to be built, breaching the GFA. Both in spirit and letter No Deal breaks the GFA on this point.
But there is a bigger one, too
The GFA enshrines certain principles. One is that no change to the legal status of Northern Ireland's citizens can be made without the agreement of both the UK and Irish Governments. And secondly, that any such change must be conditional upon self-determination.
No Deal means that the British and Irish Governments have failed to agree. The bilateral principle at the heart of the GFA is breached.
Northern Ireland voted to Remain. The principle of self-determination is breached.
Reinstatement of Security Installations at the border
Destruction of the Bi-lateral principle
Enforcement of the will of the English majority over the right to self-determination set out in the GFA.
Three huge ways that a No Deal breaks the GFA.
Ultimately it's not about whether lawyers can prove that this or that clause has been breached. It will be about how the ten most antagonistic Republican former paramilitaries choose to respond when the first checkpoint is built on the border.
As your friend points out, who would want to be the isolated individual in uniform at that Border Post? |
Cracking post that, thanks for the clear explanation.
Although I can't help but think that if you only believed a bit more...  |  |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 11:57 - Dec 14 with 1882 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 10:05 - Dec 14 by connorscontract |
Sorry, I wasn't around to answer your question as to why the GFA would be broken by a No Deal Brexit.
Both you and West Stander make central points.
West Stander points out that much of the GFA is about allowing a symbolic United Ireland to exist in as many ways as possible. I have previously described it as a Quantum Solution: NI is both/and/either/or part of a United Ireland and part of the United Kingdom.
After the GFA Eire passed laws allowing any person who had been or was yet to be born in NI to claim Irish Nationality. So a child born in NI is Schrödinger's citizen: s/he is both and neither British and Irish, and the box is only opened when s/he applies for their first passport.
The GFA doesn't mention borders, as you rightly state. This is because both nations were members of the EU and so freedom of movement of people and goods was already a legal obligation.
However the border was, in places, fenced with barbed wire, had watchtowers looming over it, concrete blocks to filter traffic and armed checkpoints and stop and search for security reasons. These "Security Installations" (they also existed as "Peace Walls" between communities in some cities and towns in NI) are dealt with in the GFA. They are to be removed.
Since then, a farmer from Eire has been able to drive freely to a livestock market in NI without queueing and having guns waved in his/her face, or asked awkward questions or been treated with suspicion. The same for a Sales Rep from Belfast heading South. Or a Hen Party going to Dublin. Or people from Co Cork wanting to visit Antrim etc etc.
If there is a No Deal Brexit then a hard border, as you say, is inevitable. Customs and Passport control. Even if the pre-EU right to travel for Irish Citizens to the North and vice versa is re-established, this wouldn't apply to the thousands of French, Polish or Italians etc etc living in Eire. Or Nigerians or Canadians or whoever. And if No Deal is a "reclaiming control of our borders" Brexit then multiply this.
And, as you rightly point out, No Deal means a different duty and regulatory environment, and the huge potential for smuggling.
So there will be queues at the border, filtering through checkpoints, possibly armed police, suspicious questions.
It will look a lot like how things were pre-GFA. It won't look like a United Ireland to Nationalists. Security installations will need to be built, breaching the GFA. Both in spirit and letter No Deal breaks the GFA on this point.
But there is a bigger one, too
The GFA enshrines certain principles. One is that no change to the legal status of Northern Ireland's citizens can be made without the agreement of both the UK and Irish Governments. And secondly, that any such change must be conditional upon self-determination.
No Deal means that the British and Irish Governments have failed to agree. The bilateral principle at the heart of the GFA is breached.
Northern Ireland voted to Remain. The principle of self-determination is breached.
Reinstatement of Security Installations at the border
Destruction of the Bi-lateral principle
Enforcement of the will of the English majority over the right to self-determination set out in the GFA.
Three huge ways that a No Deal breaks the GFA.
Ultimately it's not about whether lawyers can prove that this or that clause has been breached. It will be about how the ten most antagonistic Republican former paramilitaries choose to respond when the first checkpoint is built on the border.
As your friend points out, who would want to be the isolated individual in uniform at that Border Post? |
Unfortunately I haven't got time to reply in detail but as you will see from the post you replied to I have had a rethink anyway.
A hard border is not required by WTO, they have said this and technically free movement can remain.
The problem is the criminal activity and smuggling and from talking to matey a hard border seems the only option to prevent mayhem - and this in turn will (again according to matey) kick off the RA.
Also without a hard border it will be possible for Eire smugglers to transport all sorts of agricultural items banned in EU but in future not in UK, hormone injected beef and the like.
Your penultimate paragraph sums it up.
It's a mess. | |
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| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:41 - Dec 14 with 1849 views | BlueNomad |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 15:36 - Dec 12 by BloomBlue |
10 years ago we suffered one of our worst recessions while being part of the EU, so staying in the EU won't stop a recession. Obviously project fear have fooled you with their fake news |
Caused largely by the behaviour of US banks |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:46 - Dec 14 with 1843 views | BlueNomad |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 10:05 - Dec 14 by connorscontract |
Sorry, I wasn't around to answer your question as to why the GFA would be broken by a No Deal Brexit.
Both you and West Stander make central points.
West Stander points out that much of the GFA is about allowing a symbolic United Ireland to exist in as many ways as possible. I have previously described it as a Quantum Solution: NI is both/and/either/or part of a United Ireland and part of the United Kingdom.
After the GFA Eire passed laws allowing any person who had been or was yet to be born in NI to claim Irish Nationality. So a child born in NI is Schrödinger's citizen: s/he is both and neither British and Irish, and the box is only opened when s/he applies for their first passport.
The GFA doesn't mention borders, as you rightly state. This is because both nations were members of the EU and so freedom of movement of people and goods was already a legal obligation.
However the border was, in places, fenced with barbed wire, had watchtowers looming over it, concrete blocks to filter traffic and armed checkpoints and stop and search for security reasons. These "Security Installations" (they also existed as "Peace Walls" between communities in some cities and towns in NI) are dealt with in the GFA. They are to be removed.
Since then, a farmer from Eire has been able to drive freely to a livestock market in NI without queueing and having guns waved in his/her face, or asked awkward questions or been treated with suspicion. The same for a Sales Rep from Belfast heading South. Or a Hen Party going to Dublin. Or people from Co Cork wanting to visit Antrim etc etc.
If there is a No Deal Brexit then a hard border, as you say, is inevitable. Customs and Passport control. Even if the pre-EU right to travel for Irish Citizens to the North and vice versa is re-established, this wouldn't apply to the thousands of French, Polish or Italians etc etc living in Eire. Or Nigerians or Canadians or whoever. And if No Deal is a "reclaiming control of our borders" Brexit then multiply this.
And, as you rightly point out, No Deal means a different duty and regulatory environment, and the huge potential for smuggling.
So there will be queues at the border, filtering through checkpoints, possibly armed police, suspicious questions.
It will look a lot like how things were pre-GFA. It won't look like a United Ireland to Nationalists. Security installations will need to be built, breaching the GFA. Both in spirit and letter No Deal breaks the GFA on this point.
But there is a bigger one, too
The GFA enshrines certain principles. One is that no change to the legal status of Northern Ireland's citizens can be made without the agreement of both the UK and Irish Governments. And secondly, that any such change must be conditional upon self-determination.
No Deal means that the British and Irish Governments have failed to agree. The bilateral principle at the heart of the GFA is breached.
Northern Ireland voted to Remain. The principle of self-determination is breached.
Reinstatement of Security Installations at the border
Destruction of the Bi-lateral principle
Enforcement of the will of the English majority over the right to self-determination set out in the GFA.
Three huge ways that a No Deal breaks the GFA.
Ultimately it's not about whether lawyers can prove that this or that clause has been breached. It will be about how the ten most antagonistic Republican former paramilitaries choose to respond when the first checkpoint is built on the border.
As your friend points out, who would want to be the isolated individual in uniform at that Border Post? |
All this just so there are fewer "immygrunts" at the doctor's in Clacton.................... | | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:51 - Dec 14 with 1839 views | SonOfSpock |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 14:57 - Dec 12 by BlueBadger |
A legally enforced hard border between NI and the ROI as per WTO rules. |
the WTO army are going to roll in and erect a border now are they |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:56 - Dec 14 with 1833 views | Argyle_blue |
It's a false dichotomy.. No deal is a 'bad deal' and a worse 'bad deal' than what they are calling a 'bad deal' |  | | |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:56 - Dec 14 with 1832 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two of my colleagues have said " no deal is better than a bad deal" to me today on 12:51 - Dec 14 by SonOfSpock |
the WTO army are going to roll in and erect a border now are they |
They have said they won't enforce it, that part is bullsyt | |
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