| But what about Corbyn eh? 21:53 - Dec 12 with 20514 views | Dubtractor |
Remarkable that today (on here and elsewhere in the interwebz), given the omni shambles that is the conservative party, there a still lots of people who's best response seems to be more or less "but Corbyn?".
A bit desperate isn't it? |  |
| |  |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 11:40 - Dec 15 with 1415 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 10:47 - Dec 15 by Gromheort |
Generally speaking I am a big fan of eliminating the limitations associated with a 2 party system. Given most folk are anti-Tory, it's also gut wrenching that they have an inflated position that allows them to destroy the welfare state, the NHS and any notion of equality of opportunity.
Despite that, we should acknowledge the risks associated with proportional representation. First, coalitions aren't necessarily a good thing. As they scramble for an alliance, for example, that can actually increase the power of the bigoted far right. Second, whilst we suffer from broken manifesto promises, you're guaranteed to have no say as policy outcomes will reflect bargaining behind closed doors.Third, you can still get inflated importance which doesn't reflect electoral success. Imagine, for example, the uselessness involved with the Liberals permanently in government... |
You say that but haven't we seen the Tories "increase the power of the bigoted far right"? They've certainly been held hostage by the threat of UKIP and the lunatic fringe of their own party who in PR countries with coalitions would find themselves more isolated and at least easily identifiable.
And that's not even including the deal with the DUP.
To me it makes sense to stand for clear policies as a party, be transparent about your probable coalition partners, as well as the areas of compromise. All before an election so voters can vote to dial up your influence in the eventual government. The "broad church" of Labour and Conservatives (and perhaps even the LibDems if they ever stretched themselves to become the second-biggest party) means that you don't know what aspect you're really getting in government. |  |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 11:48 - Dec 15 with 1379 views | No9 |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:03 - Dec 13 by footers |
No problem with your pedantry. OK so how about "an organisation that is directly employed by the government used taxpayers' money to discredit the leader of the opposition"?
Whether the tweets were separate or not, they have still attempted to smear Corbyn as being pro-Kremlin, much like those who feared Wilson was a communist. |
There are a number of articles on thsi story. Although Alan Duncan has denied it there has been no actual proof the company (acting on behalf of the F.O.?) did not spend the money as accused.
The anti Corbyn stuff will arise again as the RW become desperate although some in the tories are now saying they must reach out to labour to save Mrs May.
Only in politics do you insult the other side then ask them to hlpe you out of the sh1t |  | | |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 11:55 - Dec 15 with 1385 views | tcblue |
I'm still massively concerned that the opposition party has unresolved and unanswered anti-Semitism questions within it.
And more concerned that large swathes of British public don't seem to be that bothered.
For context in this binary political world without need for nuance, I think the Tories are awful, too. | | | |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:13 - Dec 15 with 1360 views | jaseitfc |
Voted Corbyn is 2017 , think it's plausible to ask questions of him. His silence on brexit is deafening and becoming disingenuous | | | |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:15 - Dec 15 with 1356 views | Gromheort |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 11:40 - Dec 15 by Darth_Koont |
You say that but haven't we seen the Tories "increase the power of the bigoted far right"? They've certainly been held hostage by the threat of UKIP and the lunatic fringe of their own party who in PR countries with coalitions would find themselves more isolated and at least easily identifiable.
And that's not even including the deal with the DUP.
To me it makes sense to stand for clear policies as a party, be transparent about your probable coalition partners, as well as the areas of compromise. All before an election so voters can vote to dial up your influence in the eventual government. The "broad church" of Labour and Conservatives (and perhaps even the LibDems if they ever stretched themselves to become the second-biggest party) means that you don't know what aspect you're really getting in government. |
It's certainly true that a level of dodgyness continues under the two party system. Other than the examples you mention, we can refer to how the Tories grunted to the right when confronted with the rise of NF. We can also refer to fluid membership between the Tories and BNP. However, with PR it is possible that the current UKIP shower could determine the government and therefore have inflated power. Coalitions aren't necessarily going to introduce median voter policies.
I am conflicted mind you. I also think that a PR system could eliminate consensus politics (such as New Labour just offering austerity-lite). Small parties can be a catalyst for innovation and radical focus. Green involvement, for example, could stop the general slide back to environmental inaction that characterises all recent governments. |  | | |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:27 - Dec 15 with 1339 views | Herbivore |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:13 - Dec 15 by jaseitfc |
Voted Corbyn is 2017 , think it's plausible to ask questions of him. His silence on brexit is deafening and becoming disingenuous |
Agreed. Labour's lack of anything like a position, other than wanting to force a GE, is pretty appalling. It's not their job to be negotiating Brexit but they could at least be holding the government to account more effectively and offering a genuine alternative. |  |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:35 - Dec 15 with 1332 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:15 - Dec 15 by Gromheort |
It's certainly true that a level of dodgyness continues under the two party system. Other than the examples you mention, we can refer to how the Tories grunted to the right when confronted with the rise of NF. We can also refer to fluid membership between the Tories and BNP. However, with PR it is possible that the current UKIP shower could determine the government and therefore have inflated power. Coalitions aren't necessarily going to introduce median voter policies.
I am conflicted mind you. I also think that a PR system could eliminate consensus politics (such as New Labour just offering austerity-lite). Small parties can be a catalyst for innovation and radical focus. Green involvement, for example, could stop the general slide back to environmental inaction that characterises all recent governments. |
Yeah, I think there are pros and cons having up-front coalitions and consensus umbrella parties.
But your second paragraph is key. Currently, there seems to be limited opportunity to provide alternatives to the electorate (more likely they'll be shot down in the committee stage within a big party). And this lack of a direct link between politicians and voters is a huge problem. This coupled with the majority of votes not even counting creates the sort of environment where a country can swing over to populism and actually put the loons in power as with Trump.
That hasn't yet resulted in us electing a Trumpian government but, with the current widespread support in the UK for throwback right-wing politics, we're getting closer. We can see how it elevates a Rees-Mogg, UKIP or a Tommy Robinson to a position of excessive influence in our society. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:43 - Dec 15 with 1322 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:27 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
Agreed. Labour's lack of anything like a position, other than wanting to force a GE, is pretty appalling. It's not their job to be negotiating Brexit but they could at least be holding the government to account more effectively and offering a genuine alternative. |
I disagree with Corbyn's view on Brexit and whether a GE is the right way to go. But on the other hand, it's by letting the Tories and the government unravel rather than letting them close ranks, that we've reached the absurdity of Brexit.
So-called political debate in this country seems to prop up the silliness rather than reveal it, letting these clowns play at politics and avoid dealing with reality. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:49 - Dec 15 with 1312 views | Herbivore |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:43 - Dec 15 by Darth_Koont |
I disagree with Corbyn's view on Brexit and whether a GE is the right way to go. But on the other hand, it's by letting the Tories and the government unravel rather than letting them close ranks, that we've reached the absurdity of Brexit.
So-called political debate in this country seems to prop up the silliness rather than reveal it, letting these clowns play at politics and avoid dealing with reality. |
His strategy isn't winning him any admirers though. The opposition to this shambolic Tory government should be streaking ahead in the polls and nailed on to win the next GE. That's not the case with Labour. I get that it's hard when 90% of the mainstream media is against you but when you're not really showing any kind of leadership or offering much in the way of an alternative you aren't going to impress anyone. The way they are stood by hoping to pounce and narrowly win a GE just comes across as rank cynical politicking. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:57 - Dec 15 with 1292 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:49 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
His strategy isn't winning him any admirers though. The opposition to this shambolic Tory government should be streaking ahead in the polls and nailed on to win the next GE. That's not the case with Labour. I get that it's hard when 90% of the mainstream media is against you but when you're not really showing any kind of leadership or offering much in the way of an alternative you aren't going to impress anyone. The way they are stood by hoping to pounce and narrowly win a GE just comes across as rank cynical politicking. |
Agreed re: the last line.
But not sure really about what Labour could do that wouldn't suck them down into the Brexit mud and perhaps even derail the slow journey back to reality. Without them doing anything, the chances of a second referendum and perhaps even a simple decision to Remain have got closer than at any time. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:59 - Dec 15 with 1288 views | BackToRussia |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:49 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
His strategy isn't winning him any admirers though. The opposition to this shambolic Tory government should be streaking ahead in the polls and nailed on to win the next GE. That's not the case with Labour. I get that it's hard when 90% of the mainstream media is against you but when you're not really showing any kind of leadership or offering much in the way of an alternative you aren't going to impress anyone. The way they are stood by hoping to pounce and narrowly win a GE just comes across as rank cynical politicking. |
Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU, he's stuck between sticking to his principles on it which would be to broadly follow Brexit and his party and the centre left in this country who are almost pro a second referendum. And of course he has to attack the government too, but in a way he's almost an ideological supporter of May's deal. His attacks against May lately have looked a little hollow to me. Like he's having to put on a performance. Some of what you ascribe as lack of leadership in a way is just him being caught up in this.
Also, when you say that Labour should be streaking ahead in the polls - is that really fair when Corbyn's Labour policies are far to the Left of New Labour, which has enjoyed the biggest success in the polls? He was always likely to struggle to convince a nation of "centrists", unless, ironically, he had the charm of Blair. |  |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:00 - Dec 15 with 1284 views | Herbivore |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 12:57 - Dec 15 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed re: the last line.
But not sure really about what Labour could do that wouldn't suck them down into the Brexit mud and perhaps even derail the slow journey back to reality. Without them doing anything, the chances of a second referendum and perhaps even a simple decision to Remain have got closer than at any time. |
In unconvinced on that point to be honest, and I'm even less convinced that Labour can take any credit for it (with the exception perhaps of Keir Starmer) if it does go that way. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:06 - Dec 15 with 1272 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:00 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
In unconvinced on that point to be honest, and I'm even less convinced that Labour can take any credit for it (with the exception perhaps of Keir Starmer) if it does go that way. |
I dunno. Personally, I think it's giving Theresa May and her party the rope to hang themselves that's got us where we are.
As opposition to the madness of Davis et al, Labour would have been the ones floating a very similar deal to the one May ended up having to deliver. And while it's a semi-sensible deal that tries to resolve an awful situation, it's not helped her at all. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:47 - Dec 15 with 1237 views | Herbivore |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:06 - Dec 15 by Darth_Koont |
I dunno. Personally, I think it's giving Theresa May and her party the rope to hang themselves that's got us where we are.
As opposition to the madness of Davis et al, Labour would have been the ones floating a very similar deal to the one May ended up having to deliver. And while it's a semi-sensible deal that tries to resolve an awful situation, it's not helped her at all. |
But if the deal is essentially pretty close to what they want then why not say as much? Why not support May to try and tweak it instead of sitting on the sidelines waiting for an implosion? Brexit is the most important thing that's happened in the UK in my lifetime, I expect more from the opposition than keeping quiet, playing politics and hoping it all goes tits up. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 14:04 - Dec 15 with 1217 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 13:47 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
But if the deal is essentially pretty close to what they want then why not say as much? Why not support May to try and tweak it instead of sitting on the sidelines waiting for an implosion? Brexit is the most important thing that's happened in the UK in my lifetime, I expect more from the opposition than keeping quiet, playing politics and hoping it all goes tits up. |
The deal isn't going anywhere. Pretty clear that's what the EU will accept and "getting assurances on the detail" is just stalling for time and trying to save face.
So in practical terms it doesn't matter. The HoC are not going to approve a no-deal so we're looking as if it's going to be a question even of remaining. I don't think remaining would have been possible if it had become the usual adversarial red v blue nonsense.
So personally I think it's going fine. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 14:07 - Dec 15 with 1212 views | Herbivore |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 14:04 - Dec 15 by Darth_Koont |
The deal isn't going anywhere. Pretty clear that's what the EU will accept and "getting assurances on the detail" is just stalling for time and trying to save face.
So in practical terms it doesn't matter. The HoC are not going to approve a no-deal so we're looking as if it's going to be a question even of remaining. I don't think remaining would have been possible if it had become the usual adversarial red v blue nonsense.
So personally I think it's going fine. |
If it goes that way, and I have my doubts, it's more by luck than judgement. | |
| |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 14:12 - Dec 15 with 1204 views | Darth_Koont |
| But what about Corbyn eh? on 14:07 - Dec 15 by Herbivore |
If it goes that way, and I have my doubts, it's more by luck than judgement. |
Maybe. But I don't get what could have been done to bring about a soft Brexit or even a stab at remaining by active pressure.
And FWIW I don't think a GE is as important as sorting out Brexit as this will set the scene for the next 10-20 years — as much if not more than government policies during this time. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
