| Austerity is damaging our kids 18:03 - Dec 17 with 7333 views | Mullet |
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/17/many-pupils-in-england-hungry-an
I'm not one to agree wholeheartedly with the Guardian too often, but in this case I don't think the anecdotal evidence is easily dismissed, nor scaremongering.
I've seen this sort of stuff growing year upon year, and am lucky enough to work in a school that has implemented as many things as they can to support families where possible. But that's an imperfect and imprecise tool all too often.
It's part of the puzzle, where those using foodbanks are working and still not getting by and shows that from whichever angle it's approached, this government is shameful in so many damning ways. |  |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:40 - Dec 18 with 3279 views | eireblue |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 06:37 - Dec 18 by Currie10 |
This.
Labour came in with the country not in bad shape in 1997 from memory - quite young at the time.
Went on a massive spending spree, some of it needed granted...........
Tories are going somewhat crazy regarding cuts, however if Labour hadn't overspent for a prolonged period of time, perhaps cut cut cut wouldn't be happening.
Easy to spend though isn't it. |
To extend my comments, in 1997, the problem with "fixing the roof when the sun was shining" as the Tories wanted Labour to do, first, Labour had to rebuild the walls, before having a structure on which to have roof. |  | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:54 - Dec 18 with 3259 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:40 - Dec 18 by eireblue |
To extend my comments, in 1997, the problem with "fixing the roof when the sun was shining" as the Tories wanted Labour to do, first, Labour had to rebuild the walls, before having a structure on which to have roof. |
But as previously stated, Labour inherited an economy left in good shape by Ken Clarke and for the first three years Brown matched Clarke's spending commitments.
It was only in year 4 that Brown cast aside "Prudence" and in 2006 he ignored the internal spending review carried out by his civil servants. |  |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:56 - Dec 18 with 3265 views | CoachRob |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:19 - Dec 17 by BloomBlue |
The government who didn't save when the times were good to fund costs during the bad times? |
Love this comment - government can create money as and when it pleases but this comment suggests the government should open a savings account at Nationwide.
When governments run surpluses private debt explodes - think Great Depression and GFC. |  | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 12:26 - Dec 18 with 3231 views | noggin |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 19:01 - Dec 17 by Currie10 |
As opposed to Blair's ' for the people ' Labour? |
By bringing Labour into this debate, you are presumably defending tory policy? |  |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 12:35 - Dec 18 with 3225 views | baxterbasics |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 19:05 - Dec 17 by BlueBadger |
...when child poverty dropped significantly? |
Yes a helpful decade long spending splurge which is now being paid for. |  |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 12:44 - Dec 18 with 3214 views | eireblue |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:54 - Dec 18 by GlasgowBlue |
But as previously stated, Labour inherited an economy left in good shape by Ken Clarke and for the first three years Brown matched Clarke's spending commitments.
It was only in year 4 that Brown cast aside "Prudence" and in 2006 he ignored the internal spending review carried out by his civil servants. |
I wasn't talking about the economy.
When Tories were saying things like "fix the roof", they weren't talking about the economy.
They were talking about spending. | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 21:30 - Dec 18 with 3150 views | Mullet |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 19:14 - Dec 17 by chicoazul |
You and I have rowed plenty in the past but fair play to you, you're doing the Lord's work right there and I could never do it for more than a week or two without needing an extensive course of therapy. |
It's something you get accustomed to and learn to spot and separate from the other areas of the job. The mosaic of different issues you see over time makes the effects of poverty more like a background factor or influence.
Does pay off seeing the rare kid jump the biggest hurdles on results day though I have to say. | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 21:33 - Dec 18 with 3146 views | Mullet |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 06:37 - Dec 18 by Currie10 |
This.
Labour came in with the country not in bad shape in 1997 from memory - quite young at the time.
Went on a massive spending spree, some of it needed granted...........
Tories are going somewhat crazy regarding cuts, however if Labour hadn't overspent for a prolonged period of time, perhaps cut cut cut wouldn't be happening.
Easy to spend though isn't it. |
At the risk of being pedantic/mean-spirited to you, that doesn't in any way address what I asked you about the education policies you objected to.
Or at least meet me halfway and link them to spending vs austerity in the context of 1997 onwards and the actions of say Gove recently, so I can see why we disagree. | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:03 - Dec 18 with 3114 views | jjblue84 |
One can only wonder what those benefits are being spent on, if not the children!! |  | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:08 - Dec 18 with 3108 views | Mullet |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:03 - Dec 18 by jjblue84 |
One can only wonder what those benefits are being spent on, if not the children!! |
At the risk of being precious etc. Any chance you can take your brand of saying fcuk all but bringing down a thread elsewhere?
That, or say full well what you mean. | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:16 - Dec 18 with 3093 views | jjblue84 |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:08 - Dec 18 by Mullet |
At the risk of being precious etc. Any chance you can take your brand of saying fcuk all but bringing down a thread elsewhere?
That, or say full well what you mean. |
For the hard of hearing, what are all the benefits being spent on to make children go hungry in this age of riches? This isn’t Dickensian Britain or Africa, and it’s shameful to pretend it is!! | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:18 - Dec 18 with 3089 views | itfcjoe |
Sadly people don’t care, more worried about ideaology than the problems staring them in the face.
Even worse of all, that applies to the Labour Party at the moment too |  |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:49 - Dec 18 with 3066 views | No9 |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:36 - Dec 18 by GlasgowBlue |
A Couple of points re your post.
Cutting the higher rate of income tax from 50pc to 45pc helped increase the amount of tax revenue raised from the richest. 50pc was a political stunt from Gordon Brown because the rate was just 40pc for 12 years 11 months of the 13 years of New Labour
Of course Labour weren’t responsible for the global financial crisis but the deficit Brown was running at the time was a massive contributor to the UK recession.
When Labour came to power in 1997 Brown followed Ken Clarke's spending plans for 3 years and ran a surplus. Then in 2000 he committed massive public spending to create masses of people dependant on that government.
From 2000-2007 the size of the state grew from 37% to 50%.
But he couldn't get enough tax to fund the project so he increased Britain’s national debt by 43%. There was no deficit in 2000 but by 2005/6 Brown ran up a boom-time deficit of 3% of GDP , the maximum allowed under EU rules. It was pure financial mismanagement.
From the IFS:
"Looking at the UK’s debt levels, in 2007 we had the eleventh highest level of debt (or seventeenth lowest) when compared with the other 26 OECD countries for which data are available. Between 1997 and 2007, 16 OECD countries (out of 23 for which data are available) experienced larger declines in their ratio of debt to national income than the UK (using the OECD’s measure of “general government net financial liabilities”, which differs somewhat from the Treasury’s preferred measure, “public sector net debt”).
On the eve of the financial crisis, the UK had one of the largest structural budget deficits among either the G7 or the OECD countries and a higher level of public sector debt than most other OECD countries, though lower than most other G7 countries. Most OECD governments did more to reduce their structural deficit during the period from 1997 to 2007 than Labour did. This fiscal position formed the backdrop to the financial crisis."
And Tony Blair: ‘We should also accept that from 2005 onwards Labour was insufficiently vigorous in limiting or eliminating the potential structural deficit. The failure to embrace the Fundamental SavingsReview of 2005-6 was, in retrospect, a much bigger error than I ever thought at the time.’
So:
a) Debt increased in real terms by £500billion during Labour's years in office
b) Debt as a share of GDP was higher when Labour left office than when they took power in 1997
c) The IFS says that "Most OECD governments did more to reduce their structural deficit during the period from 1997 to 2007 than Labour did. This fiscal position formed the backdrop to the financial crisis."
I think the blame for the UK recession of 2007/08 can be laid squarely at Brown's door and it’s the reason we had to have a period of austerity.
You may recall it was Brown’s Chancellor, Alistair Darling, who said that if re-elected Labour planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-mar |
There are those who don't agree with you.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/11/27/the-tories-created-two-thirds-of-
Is this bloke more qualified to make the assessment than you ? |  | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 07:51 - Dec 19 with 3010 views | GlasgowBlue |
What dies that have to do with the recession of 2008 which is what was being discussed.
I used figures from the IFS and quoted them. You often use and quote the IFS. | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:53 - Dec 19 with 2978 views | eireblue |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 07:51 - Dec 19 by GlasgowBlue |
What dies that have to do with the recession of 2008 which is what was being discussed.
I used figures from the IFS and quoted them. You often use and quote the IFS. |
In terms of what is being discussed, e.g. the current economic model adopted by the current and previous government seems to be damaging....
It is often proposed that the Tories are more fiscally responsible.
Tories like to have smaller states, and lower taxation, since this leads to better outcomes.
However the evidence presented, I don't know if it is accurate BTW, assuming it is, is that the Tories seem to borrow more nad repay debt less.
But the Tories do, to me, seem consistently to have a bias to a smaller state and less taxation.
If they consistently pursue such a policy bias, and this tends to result in more spending and less debt repayment, and worse outcomes for people, e.g. as illustrated by child poverty figures before and now.
Well maybe there is something fundamentally wrong?
And maybe the austerity or the degree of austerity that was constructed with that flawed bias, was also, well wrong? | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 11:24 - Dec 19 with 2946 views | CoachRob |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:53 - Dec 19 by eireblue |
In terms of what is being discussed, e.g. the current economic model adopted by the current and previous government seems to be damaging....
It is often proposed that the Tories are more fiscally responsible.
Tories like to have smaller states, and lower taxation, since this leads to better outcomes.
However the evidence presented, I don't know if it is accurate BTW, assuming it is, is that the Tories seem to borrow more nad repay debt less.
But the Tories do, to me, seem consistently to have a bias to a smaller state and less taxation.
If they consistently pursue such a policy bias, and this tends to result in more spending and less debt repayment, and worse outcomes for people, e.g. as illustrated by child poverty figures before and now.
Well maybe there is something fundamentally wrong?
And maybe the austerity or the degree of austerity that was constructed with that flawed bias, was also, well wrong? |
Great point - much of the obsession around fiscal consolidation comes from work done by American Robert Barro that suggests people adjust to the government tax and spend. These decisions are intergenerational. Kenneth Rogoff also wrote a flawed paper on government debt and curtailed growth.
It is absurd nonsense but those on the right cling to it like geocentric astronomers. It is interesting to see politicians like Raab now advocating fiscal stimulus in contravention of this crazy policy.
The right believe that all innovation comes from the private sector and that the government sector is useless. Think about Farage talking about cost of HIV drugs to demonised immigrants and then research how these drugs came about. | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 11:31 - Dec 19 with 2945 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Not just school-related. One of the first Tory cuts when there was a coalition was council youth services which were utterly devastated and ceased to exist. In Essex the county council cut youth services to zero years before finally ending free meals for council staff in the council cafeteria | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 11:36 - Dec 19 with 2937 views | Bogblue |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:36 - Dec 18 by GlasgowBlue |
A Couple of points re your post.
Cutting the higher rate of income tax from 50pc to 45pc helped increase the amount of tax revenue raised from the richest. 50pc was a political stunt from Gordon Brown because the rate was just 40pc for 12 years 11 months of the 13 years of New Labour
Of course Labour weren’t responsible for the global financial crisis but the deficit Brown was running at the time was a massive contributor to the UK recession.
When Labour came to power in 1997 Brown followed Ken Clarke's spending plans for 3 years and ran a surplus. Then in 2000 he committed massive public spending to create masses of people dependant on that government.
From 2000-2007 the size of the state grew from 37% to 50%.
But he couldn't get enough tax to fund the project so he increased Britain’s national debt by 43%. There was no deficit in 2000 but by 2005/6 Brown ran up a boom-time deficit of 3% of GDP , the maximum allowed under EU rules. It was pure financial mismanagement.
From the IFS:
"Looking at the UK’s debt levels, in 2007 we had the eleventh highest level of debt (or seventeenth lowest) when compared with the other 26 OECD countries for which data are available. Between 1997 and 2007, 16 OECD countries (out of 23 for which data are available) experienced larger declines in their ratio of debt to national income than the UK (using the OECD’s measure of “general government net financial liabilities”, which differs somewhat from the Treasury’s preferred measure, “public sector net debt”).
On the eve of the financial crisis, the UK had one of the largest structural budget deficits among either the G7 or the OECD countries and a higher level of public sector debt than most other OECD countries, though lower than most other G7 countries. Most OECD governments did more to reduce their structural deficit during the period from 1997 to 2007 than Labour did. This fiscal position formed the backdrop to the financial crisis."
And Tony Blair: ‘We should also accept that from 2005 onwards Labour was insufficiently vigorous in limiting or eliminating the potential structural deficit. The failure to embrace the Fundamental SavingsReview of 2005-6 was, in retrospect, a much bigger error than I ever thought at the time.’
So:
a) Debt increased in real terms by £500billion during Labour's years in office
b) Debt as a share of GDP was higher when Labour left office than when they took power in 1997
c) The IFS says that "Most OECD governments did more to reduce their structural deficit during the period from 1997 to 2007 than Labour did. This fiscal position formed the backdrop to the financial crisis."
I think the blame for the UK recession of 2007/08 can be laid squarely at Brown's door and it’s the reason we had to have a period of austerity.
You may recall it was Brown’s Chancellor, Alistair Darling, who said that if re-elected Labour planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-mar |
Someone said that this tory government had increased the national debt more than all the last labour governments put together. If that person is about, can they please repost the figures! | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 14:49 - Dec 19 with 2887 views | Mullet |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 21:33 - Dec 18 by Mullet |
At the risk of being pedantic/mean-spirited to you, that doesn't in any way address what I asked you about the education policies you objected to.
Or at least meet me halfway and link them to spending vs austerity in the context of 1997 onwards and the actions of say Gove recently, so I can see why we disagree. |
I'll take that as a no given your response to my next post. Very telling. | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 14:52 - Dec 19 with 2884 views | Mullet |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 22:16 - Dec 18 by jjblue84 |
For the hard of hearing, what are all the benefits being spent on to make children go hungry in this age of riches? This isn’t Dickensian Britain or Africa, and it’s shameful to pretend it is!! |
All depends. Bedsits and similar "cheap" accommodation have started massively overcharging and leaving people with very little.
Poor social provision and community means you have parents trapped in cycles of drink and drugs, exacerbated by "failure" and lack of coping skills. Mental health, crime untackled and anti-social behaviour all collide in these places.
Undoubtedly people make poor choices and when you have fcuk all that impacts you and your family more I'd argue. But what good is sneering blame and an extra line of judgement here? | |
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| Austerity is damaging our kids on 14:53 - Dec 19 with 2880 views | jjblue84 |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 14:52 - Dec 19 by Mullet |
All depends. Bedsits and similar "cheap" accommodation have started massively overcharging and leaving people with very little.
Poor social provision and community means you have parents trapped in cycles of drink and drugs, exacerbated by "failure" and lack of coping skills. Mental health, crime untackled and anti-social behaviour all collide in these places.
Undoubtedly people make poor choices and when you have fcuk all that impacts you and your family more I'd argue. But what good is sneering blame and an extra line of judgement here? |
The good is that if you continue to spend money on what you can’t afford, you will end up with far worse a situation now! It’s not sneering to point out the obvious! | | | |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 15:35 - Dec 19 with 2847 views | chicoazul |
| Austerity is damaging our kids on 09:56 - Dec 18 by CoachRob |
Love this comment - government can create money as and when it pleases but this comment suggests the government should open a savings account at Nationwide.
When governments run surpluses private debt explodes - think Great Depression and GFC. |
Lots of people think this country's monetary policy should be run the way a 50s housewife ran a household. Because that would be an excellent way to run a highly complex £1trn economy. |  |
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