| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 07:43 - Dec 18 with 1957 views | connorscontract |
For those that can't be bothered to read it.
Brexit IS going to happen.
And it's going to be very sh1t indeed.
eg: "We need, urgently, on all sides of the spectrum, to start understanding how being a “third country” is different. And the most naïve of all on this remain the Brexiteers who fantasise about a style of negotiation which is only open to members of the club.
We are indeed, a soon-to-be third country and an opponent and rival, not just a partner, now. Again, that is what Brexit advocates argued for. It is time to accept the consequences.
Some of those will be beyond tiresome. And one of them will be that we shall be, like Switzerland, in a state of permanent negotiations with the EU about something highly intractable, on which they may have more metaphorical tanks than us.
Get used to it!"
But I think we've all had quite enough of experts. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 7:45]
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 07:47 - Dec 18 with 1945 views | Bluefish |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 07:43 - Dec 18 by connorscontract |
For those that can't be bothered to read it.
Brexit IS going to happen.
And it's going to be very sh1t indeed.
eg: "We need, urgently, on all sides of the spectrum, to start understanding how being a “third country” is different. And the most naïve of all on this remain the Brexiteers who fantasise about a style of negotiation which is only open to members of the club.
We are indeed, a soon-to-be third country and an opponent and rival, not just a partner, now. Again, that is what Brexit advocates argued for. It is time to accept the consequences.
Some of those will be beyond tiresome. And one of them will be that we shall be, like Switzerland, in a state of permanent negotiations with the EU about something highly intractable, on which they may have more metaphorical tanks than us.
Get used to it!"
But I think we've all had quite enough of experts. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 7:45]
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Nothing there to disagree with. It always makes me laugh when people point of how big we are, presumably they don't own an atlas. They then point out how big our economy is but again seem to massively overlook the foreign investment that makes it so big and how they are free to go where business is easier for them. |  |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 08:17 - Dec 18 with 1918 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Where does he explain how any of the options are going to make capitalism work for the normal person (and reverse the impacts of the bank bail outs and subsequent austerity)? Maybe we are just at the point where Empires have to fall!......merry Christmas |  |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 09:04 - Dec 18 with 1879 views | connorscontract |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 08:17 - Dec 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Where does he explain how any of the options are going to make capitalism work for the normal person (and reverse the impacts of the bank bail outs and subsequent austerity)? Maybe we are just at the point where Empires have to fall!......merry Christmas |
He doesn't, because that's not what he is talking about, and isn't really his realm. He is a former Civil Servant and Lead Negotiator. He is an expert on negotiations, international law and process. It is for politicians to set the vision, for example including a more humane approach to trade or greater equality in society. It was his job to attempt to deliver the vision.
His central argument is that in placing restrictions on the movement of people as the defining factor of her Post-Brexit vision, May has closed off many options in the negotiations.
And because so much of the agenda and bickering within the Tory party was based on either misunderstanding of the complexities of international trade law, or deliberate lying, the negotiations were always carried out with the EU one, or more, step ahead, and with the outwitted UK Govt playing a reactive role.
He is scathing on the Tory Brexiters lack of understanding of the basics of international trade law.
He is pretty scathing on The People's Vote.
He is utterly contemptuous of May triggering the Article 50 process before having any kind of plan in place.
He reserves his strongest criticism for two central logical inconsistencies at the heart of the Leave argument:
1 that appeals to regaining greater sovereignty are completely undermined when we will trade with the EU based on rules which are made in a Parliament where no British person will sit any longer, and enforced by Courts with no British Judges. We will have less sovereignty. All trade deals undermine sovereignty, and the more powerful player in any agreement usually sets the rules and terms and conditions. Newsflash: the EU is more powerful than the UK, especially with the clock (started by May) ticking.
2 that appeals to future free trade deals are undermined when we are throwing away a free trade deal with our largest trading partner. And claims that we will be able to make lots of great deals elsewhere under WTO terms are ridiculous when the EU has already negotiated many more such deals than any other nation or group of nations, and we will be tearing these up, too.
Where he and I disagree is on the possibility of a Second Vote.
He says it will undermine democracy. I say a post-Brexit crash to follow the 2008 crash and Austerity which has seen a greater than ever regional divide and many areas made poorer whilst the rich have become richer, is a far greater threat.
There is nothing wrong in putting the Deal to the public, especially as Parliament is deadlocked, and most MPs know it to be a bad deal anyway.
If the British people then backed May's Deal, MPs would have a binding obligation to vote for that deal, not the vague "Brexit" which meant many different things to many different people, and was mostly founded on either outright lies, regarding the ease of getting a good deal with Europe and elsewhere, or an ill-founded wish-list of "+++" options. | | | |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 09:45 - Dec 18 with 1856 views | BlueBadger |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 07:43 - Dec 18 by connorscontract |
For those that can't be bothered to read it.
Brexit IS going to happen.
And it's going to be very sh1t indeed.
eg: "We need, urgently, on all sides of the spectrum, to start understanding how being a “third country” is different. And the most naïve of all on this remain the Brexiteers who fantasise about a style of negotiation which is only open to members of the club.
We are indeed, a soon-to-be third country and an opponent and rival, not just a partner, now. Again, that is what Brexit advocates argued for. It is time to accept the consequences.
Some of those will be beyond tiresome. And one of them will be that we shall be, like Switzerland, in a state of permanent negotiations with the EU about something highly intractable, on which they may have more metaphorical tanks than us.
Get used to it!"
But I think we've all had quite enough of experts. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 7:45]
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I'm looking forward to my workload getting SLASHED when we finally leave as those people who could do without experts stop turning up at GP surgeries, calling ambulances and pitching up in A&E. |  |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 09:57 - Dec 18 with 1849 views | factual_blue |
Sadly, he will have lost all the leavers at his first use of a three syllable word. |  |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 14:13 - Dec 18 with 1810 views | Bluerunner |
Sir Ivan Rogers and Richard and Peter North. broadly agree with each other.
Here is Peter North on the Westminster bubble - The politico-media nexus is the cancer at the heart of British society - http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-politico-media-nexus-is-cancer-at.ht
It doesn't matter if you are wrong as long as you agree with the rest of the bubble. | | | |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 14:55 - Dec 18 with 1788 views | No9 |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 08:17 - Dec 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Where does he explain how any of the options are going to make capitalism work for the normal person (and reverse the impacts of the bank bail outs and subsequent austerity)? Maybe we are just at the point where Empires have to fall!......merry Christmas |
As I posted the other day- after brexit the banks will find it easier to screw the taxpayer | | | |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 21:36 - Dec 18 with 1722 views | Weekender |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 09:04 - Dec 18 by connorscontract |
He doesn't, because that's not what he is talking about, and isn't really his realm. He is a former Civil Servant and Lead Negotiator. He is an expert on negotiations, international law and process. It is for politicians to set the vision, for example including a more humane approach to trade or greater equality in society. It was his job to attempt to deliver the vision.
His central argument is that in placing restrictions on the movement of people as the defining factor of her Post-Brexit vision, May has closed off many options in the negotiations.
And because so much of the agenda and bickering within the Tory party was based on either misunderstanding of the complexities of international trade law, or deliberate lying, the negotiations were always carried out with the EU one, or more, step ahead, and with the outwitted UK Govt playing a reactive role.
He is scathing on the Tory Brexiters lack of understanding of the basics of international trade law.
He is pretty scathing on The People's Vote.
He is utterly contemptuous of May triggering the Article 50 process before having any kind of plan in place.
He reserves his strongest criticism for two central logical inconsistencies at the heart of the Leave argument:
1 that appeals to regaining greater sovereignty are completely undermined when we will trade with the EU based on rules which are made in a Parliament where no British person will sit any longer, and enforced by Courts with no British Judges. We will have less sovereignty. All trade deals undermine sovereignty, and the more powerful player in any agreement usually sets the rules and terms and conditions. Newsflash: the EU is more powerful than the UK, especially with the clock (started by May) ticking.
2 that appeals to future free trade deals are undermined when we are throwing away a free trade deal with our largest trading partner. And claims that we will be able to make lots of great deals elsewhere under WTO terms are ridiculous when the EU has already negotiated many more such deals than any other nation or group of nations, and we will be tearing these up, too.
Where he and I disagree is on the possibility of a Second Vote.
He says it will undermine democracy. I say a post-Brexit crash to follow the 2008 crash and Austerity which has seen a greater than ever regional divide and many areas made poorer whilst the rich have become richer, is a far greater threat.
There is nothing wrong in putting the Deal to the public, especially as Parliament is deadlocked, and most MPs know it to be a bad deal anyway.
If the British people then backed May's Deal, MPs would have a binding obligation to vote for that deal, not the vague "Brexit" which meant many different things to many different people, and was mostly founded on either outright lies, regarding the ease of getting a good deal with Europe and elsewhere, or an ill-founded wish-list of "+++" options. |
This is worth a look. https://brexitfactbase.com/pdfs/UKTradeWTO.pdf
Explains the Brexiteer myth of WTO as a simple fall back |  |
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| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 21:45 - Dec 18 with 1712 views | J2BLUE |
| Breakfast Brexit - Ivan Rogers, knows his @rse from his elbow on 07:43 - Dec 18 by connorscontract |
For those that can't be bothered to read it.
Brexit IS going to happen.
And it's going to be very sh1t indeed.
eg: "We need, urgently, on all sides of the spectrum, to start understanding how being a “third country” is different. And the most naïve of all on this remain the Brexiteers who fantasise about a style of negotiation which is only open to members of the club.
We are indeed, a soon-to-be third country and an opponent and rival, not just a partner, now. Again, that is what Brexit advocates argued for. It is time to accept the consequences.
Some of those will be beyond tiresome. And one of them will be that we shall be, like Switzerland, in a state of permanent negotiations with the EU about something highly intractable, on which they may have more metaphorical tanks than us.
Get used to it!"
But I think we've all had quite enough of experts. [Post edited 18 Dec 2018 7:45]
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I'm expecting a second referendum.
Is there any point signing the Independent's petition? Currently has 1.08m signatures. |  |
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| The most firghtening statement is this: on 22:48 - Dec 18 with 1681 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
"Third lesson: Brexit is a process not an event. And the EU, while strategically myopic, is formidably good at process against negotiating opponents. We have to be equally so, or we will get hammered. Repeatedly." |  |
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