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Good point made on the radio this morning 20:18 - Jan 15 with 11940 viewsFixed_It

48% knew what they were voting for and voted for it. 52% voted for different things. So actually, their vote was in effect split. And even now they can't agree. Will of the people? Remain.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:39 - Jan 15 with 1690 viewsSwansea_Blue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:26 - Jan 15 by Guthrum

He didn't say they didn't know. He said they had a variety of different (and not necessarily compatible) ideas of what Leave meant in practical terms.

Not everybody wanted an instant and complete break with all aspects of the EU and no trade deal going forwards.


If there’s one post on this thread Leavers should pay attention to it’s this one^^^

Leave meant different things to different people. We hear a lot of grumblings from the Leave MPs and the press about splitting the Leave vote as if it’s some conspiracy. The Leave vote is and always was split. If anything there’s an argument for saying all Leave options were artificially conflated into a single Leave option.

It’s no good getting the hump when people say we don’t know what Leave means and the Leave side can’t decide what they want. Tonight shows us clearly that’s true. The last 2.5 yrs have shown is that it’s true. The Leave camp and MPs can’t reach us a consensus. If they could we wouldn’t be in this mess.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:50 - Jan 15 with 1674 viewsHerbivore

Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:39 - Jan 15 by Swansea_Blue

If there’s one post on this thread Leavers should pay attention to it’s this one^^^

Leave meant different things to different people. We hear a lot of grumblings from the Leave MPs and the press about splitting the Leave vote as if it’s some conspiracy. The Leave vote is and always was split. If anything there’s an argument for saying all Leave options were artificially conflated into a single Leave option.

It’s no good getting the hump when people say we don’t know what Leave means and the Leave side can’t decide what they want. Tonight shows us clearly that’s true. The last 2.5 yrs have shown is that it’s true. The Leave camp and MPs can’t reach us a consensus. If they could we wouldn’t be in this mess.


Leave means leave.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:11 - Jan 15 with 1666 viewsjaykay

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:29 - Jan 15 by Mullet

At which part of the sentence did I say that?


so i make that the second poster who has seen something in a post,that no one else could see
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 08:11 - Jan 16 with 1599 viewsArnieM

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:22 - Jan 15 by Oxford_Blue

That’s illogical.

How arrogant to claim that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

“Leave” means leave.


Absolutely spot on Oxford . Why can’t these politicians just DO what the people of this Country voted for 2 years ago.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 08:54 - Jan 16 with 1578 viewswitchdoctor

Good point made on the radio this morning on 08:11 - Jan 16 by ArnieM

Absolutely spot on Oxford . Why can’t these politicians just DO what the people of this Country voted for 2 years ago.

LEAVE MEANS LEAVE


Do you think that a lot of M P’s who voted against what the majority of their constituents voted for risk being turfed out at the next general election?...
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 09:04 - Jan 16 with 1569 viewsAndrew4445

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:22 - Jan 15 by Oxford_Blue

That’s illogical.

How arrogant to claim that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

“Leave” means leave.


This is true, so you agree that 'leaving the EU' and becoming a member of the 'EEA' would meet these criteria. This would maintain single market membership, membership of the customs union, and freedom of workers.

Do you agree this is 'leaving the EU' (it definitely meets that definition) and would you be happy with that?
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 09:09 - Jan 16 with 1561 viewsconnorscontract

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:31 - Jan 15 by Fixed_It

Please explain to us what we didn't understand.


Even GlasgowBlue, who loves a bit of politics and is very well-versed in how things work, says quite openly now that he didn't realise the implications of Brexit for The Good Friday Agreement and peace in Northern Ireland.

Or Boris Johnson who said that making a deal with the EU would be easy.

Or Jacob Rees-Mogg who said, even quite recently, that the Irish Border is a red herring.

Oh, and Dominic Raab, a prominent Leave campaigner and MP, who became, for a time, the Cabinet Minister responsible for Brexit, admitted that he didn't have a clue how much trade came through Dover and how difficult it was going to be to implement any additional checks there.

So there's four, right there. Intelligent people. One of whom is an ordinary person who knows more about politics than 99%+ of British people, and the other three are some of the people who lied to the Public about how easy it all would be.
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 09:52 - Jan 16 with 1541 viewsPinewoodblue

Not convinced that Joe Public voted any differently in the referendum than they do in normal elections. Ask people why they voted Labour and you will get lots of different answers . Many will give reasons why they wouldn't vote Conservative. I know a few people who wouldn't vote Conservative because of Maggie Thatcher, some in their early forties who never experienced things first hand.

No different the other way around. How many people would vote Conservative because they don't want Corbyn to be PM?

We were given a straight choice Remain or Leave the majority, for whatever reason, voted to leave. The Scots want another referendum about independence, clammer for second EU referendum and you hasten the end of the UK.

Scots want to leave the union whatever the consequences, people voted to leave the EU in much the same way. Those who voted leave are not responsible for the government's failure to deliver. we

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:04 - Jan 16 with 1526 viewsHerbivore

Good point made on the radio this morning on 09:52 - Jan 16 by Pinewoodblue

Not convinced that Joe Public voted any differently in the referendum than they do in normal elections. Ask people why they voted Labour and you will get lots of different answers . Many will give reasons why they wouldn't vote Conservative. I know a few people who wouldn't vote Conservative because of Maggie Thatcher, some in their early forties who never experienced things first hand.

No different the other way around. How many people would vote Conservative because they don't want Corbyn to be PM?

We were given a straight choice Remain or Leave the majority, for whatever reason, voted to leave. The Scots want another referendum about independence, clammer for second EU referendum and you hasten the end of the UK.

Scots want to leave the union whatever the consequences, people voted to leave the EU in much the same way. Those who voted leave are not responsible for the government's failure to deliver. we


Typical Brexiteer refusing to take responsibility.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:27 - Jan 16 with 1518 viewscaught-in-limbo

David Cameron, our PM in 2015, and leader of the remain campaign didn't know what he was doing in putting the future of the country in the hands of the people on a majority (50%+) vote.

If the leader of the Remain campaign himself was so naive, it's a little bit rich to suggest those that voted Leave were the ones who didn't know what they were doing.

But as I've said countless times, our leaders aren't stupid or incompetent. We have been divided by Brexit and been fed an exhausting diet of Brexit nonsense by our leaders through our Press as a distraction. We have swallowed it all.

In 10 years time most of us will realise the UK is no longer a sovereign state and we'll wonder how it all came to pass. Well, it all happened when we were bickering with each other about Brexit.

All of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job, while we were busy writing them off as incompetent.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:36 - Jan 16 with 1509 viewsPinewoodblue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:27 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

David Cameron, our PM in 2015, and leader of the remain campaign didn't know what he was doing in putting the future of the country in the hands of the people on a majority (50%+) vote.

If the leader of the Remain campaign himself was so naive, it's a little bit rich to suggest those that voted Leave were the ones who didn't know what they were doing.

But as I've said countless times, our leaders aren't stupid or incompetent. We have been divided by Brexit and been fed an exhausting diet of Brexit nonsense by our leaders through our Press as a distraction. We have swallowed it all.

In 10 years time most of us will realise the UK is no longer a sovereign state and we'll wonder how it all came to pass. Well, it all happened when we were bickering with each other about Brexit.

All of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job, while we were busy writing them off as incompetent.


Spot on on both counts. The referendum was lost rather than won and in much the same way we will, in the future, look back on events and realise freedom has been lost.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 11:00 - Jan 16 with 1494 viewscaught-in-limbo

Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:36 - Jan 16 by Pinewoodblue

Spot on on both counts. The referendum was lost rather than won and in much the same way we will, in the future, look back on events and realise freedom has been lost.


If you accept that, then you'll agree that our government has conspired against us. In 10 years time when we see it, and it's too late and our sovereignty is lost, it'll be a case of "conspiracy fact".

People don't like to recognise our leaders work in this way because they are scared or being labelled "conspiracy theorists", "unpatriotic" or even just "Vlad". Our leaders know this, that's why so much effort is invested in conflating stupid stuff like flat-earthers with genuine conspiracies.

The masses have always fallen in line rather that point out glaringly obvious truths, because where else would these expressions/sayings come from:






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Good point made on the radio this morning on 11:06 - Jan 16 with 1492 viewsRamRob

I'm sure there are a fair few of the 48% that voted remain because they didn't know what leave meant, some may now feel with certain options they may vote leave

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I suggest it's far more simple than that on 11:07 - Jan 16 with 1491 viewsDyland

Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:27 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

David Cameron, our PM in 2015, and leader of the remain campaign didn't know what he was doing in putting the future of the country in the hands of the people on a majority (50%+) vote.

If the leader of the Remain campaign himself was so naive, it's a little bit rich to suggest those that voted Leave were the ones who didn't know what they were doing.

But as I've said countless times, our leaders aren't stupid or incompetent. We have been divided by Brexit and been fed an exhausting diet of Brexit nonsense by our leaders through our Press as a distraction. We have swallowed it all.

In 10 years time most of us will realise the UK is no longer a sovereign state and we'll wonder how it all came to pass. Well, it all happened when we were bickering with each other about Brexit.

All of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job, while we were busy writing them off as incompetent.


Cameron and his cronies genuinely didn't believe or understand that over 50% would vote leave.

Occam's razor.

Your argument here that "all of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job..." is based on a false premise and made up to fit your wider world view.

I agree with much of your opinions regarding manipulation and misdirection btw, and just saying... :)

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I suggest it's far more simple than that on 11:19 - Jan 16 with 1477 viewscaught-in-limbo

I suggest it's far more simple than that on 11:07 - Jan 16 by Dyland

Cameron and his cronies genuinely didn't believe or understand that over 50% would vote leave.

Occam's razor.

Your argument here that "all of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job..." is based on a false premise and made up to fit your wider world view.

I agree with much of your opinions regarding manipulation and misdirection btw, and just saying... :)


You quote Occam's razor like it's some sort of waterproof law. I suggest you look up what it actually is try and explain away stuff like the Reichstag fire.

In fact you've played the Occam's razor card to make events fit your wider world view.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 11:23 - Jan 16 with 1475 viewsBangor31

Good point made on the radio this morning on 09:09 - Jan 16 by connorscontract

Even GlasgowBlue, who loves a bit of politics and is very well-versed in how things work, says quite openly now that he didn't realise the implications of Brexit for The Good Friday Agreement and peace in Northern Ireland.

Or Boris Johnson who said that making a deal with the EU would be easy.

Or Jacob Rees-Mogg who said, even quite recently, that the Irish Border is a red herring.

Oh, and Dominic Raab, a prominent Leave campaigner and MP, who became, for a time, the Cabinet Minister responsible for Brexit, admitted that he didn't have a clue how much trade came through Dover and how difficult it was going to be to implement any additional checks there.

So there's four, right there. Intelligent people. One of whom is an ordinary person who knows more about politics than 99%+ of British people, and the other three are some of the people who lied to the Public about how easy it all would be.


leaving the EU is a very easy thing to do, there no lie is saying that.

getting a deal that appears to appease the largest amount of the British public as possible is a whole different ball game.
[Post edited 16 Jan 11:26]
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I suggest it's far more simple than that on 13:45 - Jan 16 with 1431 viewsDyland

I suggest it's far more simple than that on 11:19 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

You quote Occam's razor like it's some sort of waterproof law. I suggest you look up what it actually is try and explain away stuff like the Reichstag fire.

In fact you've played the Occam's razor card to make events fit your wider world view.


Your first paragraph is irrelevant to the point in hand. If anything I often agree with you re control and manipulation, as I said.

Second paragraph. Not really. I'm just pointing out the current Brexit farce was most likely not engineered. Now we are in this situation various elements are using it in the way you suggest, and on that point I don't wholly disagree with you.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:50 - Jan 16 with 1428 viewsjaseitfc

So what type of remain did you vote for?

Membership as is
Ever closer union ... EU army, finance minister
Full out federalism

This idea is ridiculous, as is yours of the leave vote
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:53 - Jan 16 with 1420 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:50 - Jan 16 by jaseitfc

So what type of remain did you vote for?

Membership as is
Ever closer union ... EU army, finance minister
Full out federalism

This idea is ridiculous, as is yours of the leave vote


It was clear that membership 'as is' was what was being offered. What leaving meant on the other hand... nobody knows!

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:54 - Jan 16 with 1422 viewsDyland

Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:50 - Jan 16 by jaseitfc

So what type of remain did you vote for?

Membership as is
Ever closer union ... EU army, finance minister
Full out federalism

This idea is ridiculous, as is yours of the leave vote


Fair point.

If anything though, our current inability to agree what we DO want from Brexit (EDIT: and deliver anything coherent through our political system) shows maybe we'd be better off in exactly that, a federal super state.

:)
[Post edited 16 Jan 13:57]

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:56 - Jan 16 with 1419 viewsradiogaga

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:22 - Jan 15 by Oxford_Blue

That’s illogical.

How arrogant to claim that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

“Leave” means leave.


I think the underlying point is that while 52% did vote to leave, there was no universal definition of how the 52% wanted the exit to be done (i.e. a hard Brexit, a soft Brexit, a no deal Brexit). Quite obviously, 52% of the British Public did not vote for a no deal Brexit. I am pretty certain that the bumper 4% majority who want to leave no longer exists. If it does, they have kept very quiet.

I find it absurd that the vote was even put to the people in the first place, with absolutely no research having been carried out into the possible consequences that may occur if Brexit took place. It meant that the will of the people, as it is referred to, was based entirely on assumptions and lies that people wanted to hear. Unfortunately, the majority lack in substance. Also, we are all talking about strongly disagreeing on the subject as though it's some kind of surprise. It was 52-48 in favour, shock horror. It is almost like there was never a sufficient enough majority that voted to leave the EU.
[Post edited 16 Jan 13:57]

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:25 - Jan 16 with 1396 viewsblueislander

Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:50 - Jan 16 by jaseitfc

So what type of remain did you vote for?

Membership as is
Ever closer union ... EU army, finance minister
Full out federalism

This idea is ridiculous, as is yours of the leave vote


That is nonsense. There was never any question of our status within the EU would change if we voted to remain.
The negotiations have shown just how highly the EU values our membership, and we should have made a much greater effort to change those things, such as the waste of money the sheer weight of bureaucracy is .
Maybe after the latest shenanigans we may still have a chance to do that, but I won’t hold my breath.
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If anything, that's the other way round on 14:37 - Jan 16 with 1387 viewsDyland

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:30 - Jan 15 by jjblue84

48% didn’t have a clue of how the country is currently run, which has been played out over the last two years!!


but it's not binary is it, i.e. not everyone in the 48% who voted remain like everything about the EU and don't want continued negotiations and reform, and not everyone in the 52% who voted leave welcome the impasse or Brexit under any circumstances.

Put simply, not every Remainer is a libtard snowflake, and not every Leaver a gammon faced intractable racist.

Fvkc me I hate people.

COYFB

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:42 - Jan 16 with 1376 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:25 - Jan 16 by blueislander

That is nonsense. There was never any question of our status within the EU would change if we voted to remain.
The negotiations have shown just how highly the EU values our membership, and we should have made a much greater effort to change those things, such as the waste of money the sheer weight of bureaucracy is .
Maybe after the latest shenanigans we may still have a chance to do that, but I won’t hold my breath.


We were one foot in, one foot out for too long. We would have been far better to actually fully embrace things and change the parts we didn't like from the inside.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:44 - Jan 16 with 1373 viewsblueislander

Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:42 - Jan 16 by SpruceMoose

We were one foot in, one foot out for too long. We would have been far better to actually fully embrace things and change the parts we didn't like from the inside.


Exactamente mon cher Spruce as Poirot would have said.
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