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Good point made on the radio this morning 20:18 - Jan 15 with 11592 viewsFixed_It

48% knew what they were voting for and voted for it. 52% voted for different things. So actually, their vote was in effect split. And even now they can't agree. Will of the people? Remain.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:53 - Jan 16 with 1259 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:42 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

Perhaps this is an example of what psychologists used to call "mirrored box" or nowadays "projection". That is to say: someone who thinks they are surrounded by a one-dimensional thickos, is probably a one-dimensional thicko themselves.


You made my irony gland squirt like never before with that one! Arftastic!

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:55 - Jan 16 with 1259 viewscaught-in-limbo

Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:50 - Jan 16 by giant_ullaa

how might that theory apply to you? I;d guess you'd either be sheeperson or a crazed conspirator, but not for me to say really (apologies)


It's a fair question. I'm the psychologist trying to make sense of you all.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:06 - Jan 16 with 1244 viewscaught-in-limbo

Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:53 - Jan 16 by SpruceMoose

You made my irony gland squirt like never before with that one! Arftastic!


It looks like your gland has squirted unnecessarily - that can happen with the insecure.

Do you really think I'd have hung out here for 12 years if you were all one-dimensional thickos. Have a little more belief in yourself. It'll do your self confidence the world of good.
[Post edited 16 Jan 18:07]

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:08 - Jan 16 with 1236 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:06 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

It looks like your gland has squirted unnecessarily - that can happen with the insecure.

Do you really think I'd have hung out here for 12 years if you were all one-dimensional thickos. Have a little more belief in yourself. It'll do your self confidence the world of good.
[Post edited 16 Jan 18:07]


But I know I'm a one dimensional thicko

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:10 - Jan 16 with 1237 viewseireblue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 10:27 - Jan 16 by caught-in-limbo

David Cameron, our PM in 2015, and leader of the remain campaign didn't know what he was doing in putting the future of the country in the hands of the people on a majority (50%+) vote.

If the leader of the Remain campaign himself was so naive, it's a little bit rich to suggest those that voted Leave were the ones who didn't know what they were doing.

But as I've said countless times, our leaders aren't stupid or incompetent. We have been divided by Brexit and been fed an exhausting diet of Brexit nonsense by our leaders through our Press as a distraction. We have swallowed it all.

In 10 years time most of us will realise the UK is no longer a sovereign state and we'll wonder how it all came to pass. Well, it all happened when we were bickering with each other about Brexit.

All of the players who have made this happen have done an excellent job, while we were busy writing them off as incompetent.


I don't see a big problem with having a "weakening" of the sovereign states, if it means a shared and more universal understanding of humans, their responsibilities and rights in the world, that cannot be arbitrarily changed by a state.

By the way, if your premise, is that we have "all swallowed it" and in other posts you talk about people that are puppets.

Are there some posters you think are not fully puppetized and are trying to reach out to?
Be good to know who is on that list.

Do you think your posts will be more influential than the puppet masters?
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:17 - Jan 16 with 1226 viewsMullet

Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:11 - Jan 15 by jaykay

so i make that the second poster who has seen something in a post,that no one else could see


Telling that Brexiteers make no effort to admit they were wrong and misunderstood the most basic of statements though.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:20 - Jan 16 with 1226 viewsgordon

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:22 - Jan 15 by Oxford_Blue

That’s illogical.

How arrogant to claim that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

“Leave” means leave.


Well, we now know that 'leave means leave' doesn't cut it for lots of the people who led the campaign for leave.

Those Conservative MPs who voted leave in the referendum, and by and large were the strongest supporters of the leave campaign, have just voted against leaving the EU in a parliamentary vote.
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What's that in reference to? (n/t) on 18:24 - Jan 16 with 1216 viewsMullet

What's that in reference to? (n/t) on 15:00 - Jan 16 by Dyland



[Post edited 16 Jan 18:26]

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:27 - Jan 16 with 1206 viewscaught-in-limbo

Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:10 - Jan 16 by eireblue

I don't see a big problem with having a "weakening" of the sovereign states, if it means a shared and more universal understanding of humans, their responsibilities and rights in the world, that cannot be arbitrarily changed by a state.

By the way, if your premise, is that we have "all swallowed it" and in other posts you talk about people that are puppets.

Are there some posters you think are not fully puppetized and are trying to reach out to?
Be good to know who is on that list.

Do you think your posts will be more influential than the puppet masters?


It's the federalised United States of Europe with leaders I cannot elect which I have a problem with.

My talk of puppets is aimed at the electorate in general.

I'm not trying to reach out to anyone, but I'm not against being reached out to, if that's what people want to do.

I'm not trying to be influential, I post what I think and I'm interested in what others think, irrespective of the beliefs which define them. I've grown out of being concerned about what others think of me. I don't equate my own happiness or sanity with the number of people who agree with me - I'd probably be pretty miserable if I did.

I'm not too sure what point you're trying to make.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 19:25 - Jan 16 with 1169 viewsDavidDymondSuperfan

Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:55 - Jan 16 by Oxford_Blue

That’s an easy one.

I don’t want to be part of an increasingly centralised and political union, run by individuals I can’t elect or remove.

I don’t want to be subject to rules and laws made other than by the courts and judges in my own country.

I don’t want to be part of a union whose accounts haven’t been audited or signed off for years and which doesn’t respect democracy - just look at Barnier’s suggestion that Brexit should be called off.

I don’t want to have no control over my country’s borders.

I want to be able to forge new trade deals around the world.


https://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/21787/0216-euco-conclusions.pdf - We have it written in black and white with the EU that in the event of closer union between EU Member States, we would not be expected to join in with such integration, and would subsequently not be discriminated against as a result of such non-committal. We would simply opt out of a proposed 'United States of Europe' like we did with the single currency and the Schengen.

- The British head of the relevant department has to agree to any rules that get passed. If we don't we have a veto. Any rules that get passed are done with our blessing, and so in effect, 'your own county' has passed these laws.

EU accounts - Never heard of this issue before, so absolutely fair play on you for bringing it to attention. I haven't a clue about this, so i can't really pass comment.

https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/ Britain already had, and continues to have, control over it's borders. If you want to say that our government doesn't exert this control well enough, then that's fair enough, but surely that would be a domestic issue? What our government does/doesn't do is not the blame of Brussels.

I want to be able to make trade deals so we should walk away from each and every single one of these trade deals ( http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreemen as well as the free trade that we already have with other EU member states.
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:40 - Jan 16 with 1137 viewsOxford_Blue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 19:25 - Jan 16 by DavidDymondSuperfan

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/21787/0216-euco-conclusions.pdf - We have it written in black and white with the EU that in the event of closer union between EU Member States, we would not be expected to join in with such integration, and would subsequently not be discriminated against as a result of such non-committal. We would simply opt out of a proposed 'United States of Europe' like we did with the single currency and the Schengen.

- The British head of the relevant department has to agree to any rules that get passed. If we don't we have a veto. Any rules that get passed are done with our blessing, and so in effect, 'your own county' has passed these laws.

EU accounts - Never heard of this issue before, so absolutely fair play on you for bringing it to attention. I haven't a clue about this, so i can't really pass comment.

https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/ Britain already had, and continues to have, control over it's borders. If you want to say that our government doesn't exert this control well enough, then that's fair enough, but surely that would be a domestic issue? What our government does/doesn't do is not the blame of Brussels.

I want to be able to make trade deals so we should walk away from each and every single one of these trade deals ( http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreemen as well as the free trade that we already have with other EU member states.


The reality is that the EU is moving towards ever closer union and it is untenable for Britain to remain in the club but not go along with the journey. Inevitably in 5,10,15 years we would be under pressure to be part of what would at that stage be a United States of Europe. We would have to join, or leave.

In relation to primacy of EU law, I am afraid you are simply mistaken. Regulations have immediate effect, without any legislation being passed by Parliament. Directives have to be implemented but member states can enact their own legislation to do so. The ECJ is supreme over our own courts (as long as we are a member of the EU). Just look at the Factortame case.

EU accounts. Look into this. It’s astonishing. The EU is a deeply undemocratic institution. The Commission is not elected yet wields significant power. When Denmark and Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty, the EU ignored the views of the people.

Borders - free movement of EU citizens is enshrined in the Lisbon and Rome treaties. We can not prevent an EU national from moving here.

Trade - we can not negotiate independent bilateral trade deals on our own because we are in the customs union.
[Post edited 16 Jan 20:41]
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:45 - Jan 16 with 1128 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:40 - Jan 16 by Oxford_Blue

The reality is that the EU is moving towards ever closer union and it is untenable for Britain to remain in the club but not go along with the journey. Inevitably in 5,10,15 years we would be under pressure to be part of what would at that stage be a United States of Europe. We would have to join, or leave.

In relation to primacy of EU law, I am afraid you are simply mistaken. Regulations have immediate effect, without any legislation being passed by Parliament. Directives have to be implemented but member states can enact their own legislation to do so. The ECJ is supreme over our own courts (as long as we are a member of the EU). Just look at the Factortame case.

EU accounts. Look into this. It’s astonishing. The EU is a deeply undemocratic institution. The Commission is not elected yet wields significant power. When Denmark and Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty, the EU ignored the views of the people.

Borders - free movement of EU citizens is enshrined in the Lisbon and Rome treaties. We can not prevent an EU national from moving here.

Trade - we can not negotiate independent bilateral trade deals on our own because we are in the customs union.
[Post edited 16 Jan 20:41]


If you're trying to sell me closer integration with Europe then you're doing well. I think we need more of most of that lovely stuff you mention!

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:46 - Jan 16 with 1130 viewsOxford_Blue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 18:10 - Jan 16 by eireblue

I don't see a big problem with having a "weakening" of the sovereign states, if it means a shared and more universal understanding of humans, their responsibilities and rights in the world, that cannot be arbitrarily changed by a state.

By the way, if your premise, is that we have "all swallowed it" and in other posts you talk about people that are puppets.

Are there some posters you think are not fully puppetized and are trying to reach out to?
Be good to know who is on that list.

Do you think your posts will be more influential than the puppet masters?


Don’t you understand that the EU is driven by a deeply
Federalist idelogy which places institutions and control by unelected bureaucrats ahead of the rule of law and basic notions of democracy.

It doesn’t stand for egalitarian values. It won’t give you what you seem to think it will.

Nation states and democracy allows for accountability and the rule of law.
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:48 - Jan 16 with 1125 viewsSpruceMoose

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:46 - Jan 16 by Oxford_Blue

Don’t you understand that the EU is driven by a deeply
Federalist idelogy which places institutions and control by unelected bureaucrats ahead of the rule of law and basic notions of democracy.

It doesn’t stand for egalitarian values. It won’t give you what you seem to think it will.

Nation states and democracy allows for accountability and the rule of law.


"It doesn’t stand for egalitarian values. It won’t give you what you seem to think it will. "

You say that, but it has already given me lots of nice things for me to enjoy...

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 21:07 - Jan 16 with 1120 viewsOxford_Blue

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:45 - Jan 16 by SpruceMoose

If you're trying to sell me closer integration with Europe then you're doing well. I think we need more of most of that lovely stuff you mention!


Fine - but I don’t want it which is why I voted to leave and why we are going to leave.
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:20 - Jan 16 with 1088 viewsjaseitfc

Good point made on the radio this morning on 13:53 - Jan 16 by SpruceMoose

It was clear that membership 'as is' was what was being offered. What leaving meant on the other hand... nobody knows!


What membership as is-is never solid, henceforth multiple treaties have been ratified since our original membership referendum

Since the referendum we've seen the EU move towards fiscal union and creation of an EU military..... as a remainer that's not what i voted for
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:25 - Jan 16 with 1083 viewsjaseitfc

Good point made on the radio this morning on 14:25 - Jan 16 by blueislander

That is nonsense. There was never any question of our status within the EU would change if we voted to remain.
The negotiations have shown just how highly the EU values our membership, and we should have made a much greater effort to change those things, such as the waste of money the sheer weight of bureaucracy is .
Maybe after the latest shenanigans we may still have a chance to do that, but I won’t hold my breath.


Our membership has changed multiple times since the first referendum, & could easily change again now. Especially as there is need for ever closer union, specifically on economic policy and security

I daresay the EU military idea would still be hot if we voted remain , as would the creation of a Finance Minister, which wouldn't really impact us as were not in the eurozone but still nonetheless would changes to our membership
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:30 - Jan 16 with 1080 viewsjaseitfc

Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:29 - Jan 16 by Herbivore

You're certain? I'd be interested to see your evidence base on this one.


The fact that there were 16 million remain voters is evidence enough

Not all 16 million people have identical reasoning for voting remain...
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:33 - Jan 16 with 1077 viewsjaseitfc

Good point made on the radio this morning on 17:35 - Jan 16 by Herbivore

That's your evidence? Oh dear.


I'm willing to guess .... I don't know you or Oxford blue but I'm gonna guess that he has actually engaged with a variety of people of diverse political persuasions, and you've likely spent time doubled down in the echo chamber

He has came across reasonable
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:25 - Jan 16 with 1060 viewsHerbivore

Good point made on the radio this morning on 22:33 - Jan 16 by jaseitfc

I'm willing to guess .... I don't know you or Oxford blue but I'm gonna guess that he has actually engaged with a variety of people of diverse political persuasions, and you've likely spent time doubled down in the echo chamber

He has came across reasonable


What you mean is he agrees with you.

You're both conflating having differing reasons for wanting to remain with there being a substantive difference in what they were voting for. Our continued membership of the EU was something known, nothing was on the table in terms of any great change to our existing membership. The 48% voted for that continuation. Whether they did so because they value political union, freedom of movement or shared security is irrelevant. Our membership provides all those things and you decide whether, on the whole, you accept that.

That's not the same for a leave vote. Someone wanting to avoid political union but to keep economic ties and freedom of movement is voting for something very different than someone whose sole concern is to end free movement. They couldn't know whether a leave vote would provide their version of Brexit because what Brexit might look like wasn't at all clear. That's a significant difference.

It's false equivalence and a really poor argument to suggest remain voters were voting with the same uncertainty or with the same divergence of desired outcomes as leave voters. That simply isn't true.

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:34 - Jan 16 with 1051 viewsDaz

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:27 - Jan 15 by Fixed_It

Although I'm not convinced they all knew what they were voting for (misleading claims on the sides of buses etc muddied the waters), the point made is that some were voting about immigration, some about sovereignty, some about bent bananas etc. Even now, many Brexiteers want different things. The Remain side knew exactly what they were voting for.


Silly point your trying to make. You really think remain people Want the same from the EU. Brexit people agreed to leave and remainers to stay simple as. How they want it is going to be different on both sides.

Even David Cameron tried to get his deal to stay before it went to a vote. Bet we all didn't agree on that

Plus there was the lies on both sides as you said which convinced some people which way to vote so no not a valid point being raised on this post. People on both side will always have different reasons



Herbivore you can't down vote human nature
[Post edited 16 Jan 23:48]

help not more football

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Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:52 - Jan 16 with 1023 viewsgosblue

Can anyone explain to me in simple terms please, what was the point of today’s vote.
0
Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:55 - Jan 16 with 1021 viewsDaz

Good point made on the radio this morning on 23:52 - Jan 16 by gosblue

Can anyone explain to me in simple terms please, what was the point of today’s vote.


Labour trying to get elected to government.

help not more football

0

Good point made on the radio this morning on 02:12 - Jan 17 with 983 viewsMonkaz

But then you could say that Remainers had three opportunities to vote against leaving the EU:

2015 - General election, Cameron promised a referendum (CON won election)
2016 - EU referendum, voters favoured leave 52% to 48% remain
2017 - General election, Conservative and Labour both have policies in manifesto stating that it was their policy to ensure the UK left the European Union. (They were the two biggest parties voted for)

MPs also had the opportunity to stop Brexit but strangely ...
They voted to trigger article 50.

People who call for a second referendum are delusional! Especially when they say “we now know what it’s going to be like” ... we don’t ask for a second chance to vote our MP in because “we know what they are like now” and we certainly shouldn’t be like Scotland and try and hold referendum after referendum until they get the “right”.

Rant over lol
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Good point made on the radio this morning on 07:36 - Jan 17 with 959 viewsDavidDymondSuperfan

Good point made on the radio this morning on 20:40 - Jan 16 by Oxford_Blue

The reality is that the EU is moving towards ever closer union and it is untenable for Britain to remain in the club but not go along with the journey. Inevitably in 5,10,15 years we would be under pressure to be part of what would at that stage be a United States of Europe. We would have to join, or leave.

In relation to primacy of EU law, I am afraid you are simply mistaken. Regulations have immediate effect, without any legislation being passed by Parliament. Directives have to be implemented but member states can enact their own legislation to do so. The ECJ is supreme over our own courts (as long as we are a member of the EU). Just look at the Factortame case.

EU accounts. Look into this. It’s astonishing. The EU is a deeply undemocratic institution. The Commission is not elected yet wields significant power. When Denmark and Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty, the EU ignored the views of the people.

Borders - free movement of EU citizens is enshrined in the Lisbon and Rome treaties. We can not prevent an EU national from moving here.

Trade - we can not negotiate independent bilateral trade deals on our own because we are in the customs union.
[Post edited 16 Jan 20:41]


The difference here is, I used sources, whereas you’re just making baseless claims.

Yeah sure, we can’t make our own trade deals right now, but considering the EU negotiators have had our pants down at every turn in the past 2 years, do you honestly think that we’ll get better deals by ourselves than those that we currently have as part of the EU? I don’t, considering that the rest of the world knows we would be desperate for literally anything, so the deals would be heavily weighted in their favour.
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