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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum 20:47 - Jan 19 with 6963 viewsElderGrizzly

Go on Vince!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/19/ministers-second-brexit-referen
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:41 - Jan 20 with 763 viewsjeera

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:22 - Jan 20 by jeera

Recent noises from the EU council* have included an offer to look at reform and to make an open an invitation to the UK to stay in.

In that respect surely there's no better time to push for further negotiations on the premise that we could be swayed if the deal was right.


*Council/commission/parliament. I get lost with who's who. Does everything really need to be so complicated?


Oh Withnail. You with your cool little avatar and all...

What is you disagree with this time?

If the reasons for the UK wanting to leave the EU could be rectified, what is there to disagree with?

Well it looks like a duck, it sounds like a duck. Nope, dunno what it is.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:45 - Jan 20 with 755 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:36 - Jan 20 by Championship

No deal has to be on the ballot. It has no chance of winning so why not go through the motions?


Then that's pure tokenism. And if by some miracle it did win I can't see Parliament enacting it given that it's simply not viable for a number of reasons. So show some leadership, make the ballot a straight up deal or remain vote and explain to the people why. Then start trying to address the shambles that led to a Brexit vote in the first place.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:47 - Jan 20 with 741 viewspointofblue

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:45 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

Then that's pure tokenism. And if by some miracle it did win I can't see Parliament enacting it given that it's simply not viable for a number of reasons. So show some leadership, make the ballot a straight up deal or remain vote and explain to the people why. Then start trying to address the shambles that led to a Brexit vote in the first place.


It's got to the point where people won't listen though. People are blind and focused on both sides on their own view being right and everyone else being wrong. The lack of compromise within the country itself and with the EU has led us down this path.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:53 - Jan 20 with 730 viewsChampionship

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:45 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

Then that's pure tokenism. And if by some miracle it did win I can't see Parliament enacting it given that it's simply not viable for a number of reasons. So show some leadership, make the ballot a straight up deal or remain vote and explain to the people why. Then start trying to address the shambles that led to a Brexit vote in the first place.


Leave won the referendum. We're lucky that remain would even be on the ballot. Whether it's tokenism or not, it's an empty gesture which would take some of the heat out of the situation. I can't see any reason to exclude it. We either believe in democracy or we don't.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:53 - Jan 20 with 730 viewsDarth_Koont

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:36 - Jan 20 by Championship

No deal has to be on the ballot. It has no chance of winning so why not go through the motions?


But how do you express no-deal and combine it with other types of Leave option?

IMO it needs to be another binary choice of a deal that would get the backing of the HoC versus remaining in the EU for the time being (for a five-year period or so).

And FWIW no-deal is such a monumentally stupid and damaging option it would be utterly irresponsible to have it on the ballot. That is if we all share a duty of care for this country, its citizens and especially an entire future generation that can't even vote but will be affected by it most.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:59 - Jan 20 with 717 viewsChampionship

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:53 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont

But how do you express no-deal and combine it with other types of Leave option?

IMO it needs to be another binary choice of a deal that would get the backing of the HoC versus remaining in the EU for the time being (for a five-year period or so).

And FWIW no-deal is such a monumentally stupid and damaging option it would be utterly irresponsible to have it on the ballot. That is if we all share a duty of care for this country, its citizens and especially an entire future generation that can't even vote but will be affected by it most.


I think it needs to be a two stage referendum or a transferable vote. I don't see any risk from no deal being on the ballot. It will come third and expose how little support there is for such an option. Remain leads in every poll now and demographics get more favourable for remain by the day. Remain would win any style of vote IMO. Once you remove May's deal and ask people to directly vote for no deal or remain it won't even be a contest.

Personally, I don' disagree with your point. The two way option seems fair enough to me. I just wonder if it would take some of the sting out of the situation if hard Brexit was on the ballot. Not trying to appease the far right but exposing the likes of Boris and Farage as having no true support. It would likely cost Boris any chance he has of being Prime Minister so that would be a nice sweetener?
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:01 - Jan 20 with 714 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:53 - Jan 20 by Championship

Leave won the referendum. We're lucky that remain would even be on the ballot. Whether it's tokenism or not, it's an empty gesture which would take some of the heat out of the situation. I can't see any reason to exclude it. We either believe in democracy or we don't.


So say no deal wins, we just rip up the Good Friday Agreement and let the economy descend into chaos? If Parliament has no intention of implementing a no deal then it shouldn't be on the ballot.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:02 - Jan 20 with 712 viewsDarth_Koont

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:53 - Jan 20 by Championship

Leave won the referendum. We're lucky that remain would even be on the ballot. Whether it's tokenism or not, it's an empty gesture which would take some of the heat out of the situation. I can't see any reason to exclude it. We either believe in democracy or we don't.


If we believe in democracy then we'd put the likely best option before the people. Which is Remain.

The unknowns in the various Leave options are just too unknown. When our economy (jobs and wages) is more dependent on confidence and certainty than any optimistic predictions of future wealth they become the poorer choices automatically. Even before you address the basic costs and barriers we know they already involve.

As a side note, democracy is an ongoing process. Nothing should ever be set in stone like the previous referendum result based on what we now know.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:03 - Jan 20 with 708 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:47 - Jan 20 by pointofblue

It's got to the point where people won't listen though. People are blind and focused on both sides on their own view being right and everyone else being wrong. The lack of compromise within the country itself and with the EU has led us down this path.


If that's the case then a tokenistic gesture of sticking no deal on the ballot isn't going to do anything to help the situation.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:05 - Jan 20 with 701 viewsChampionship

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:01 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

So say no deal wins, we just rip up the Good Friday Agreement and let the economy descend into chaos? If Parliament has no intention of implementing a no deal then it shouldn't be on the ballot.


It's a fair point but it's so unlikely I just don't see it being an issue.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:06 - Jan 20 with 698 viewsLord_Lucan

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:22 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

Says the man who described the Brexit referendum as 'simple'.


Oh did I now?

What part did I say was simple?

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:08 - Jan 20 with 685 viewsLord_Lucan

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 12:22 - Jan 20 by jeera

Recent noises from the EU council* have included an offer to look at reform and to make an open an invitation to the UK to stay in.

In that respect surely there's no better time to push for further negotiations on the premise that we could be swayed if the deal was right.


*Council/commission/parliament. I get lost with who's who. Does everything really need to be so complicated?


All the more reason not to throw your trump card away.

No?

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:09 - Jan 20 with 686 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 11:16 - Jan 20 by Lord_Lucan

I voted to remain, it's just a personal opinion that leave would win again.

Personally, if there was a second referendum I wouldn't vote - and I would never vote for anything or anyone again.

The original question was in or out, I can't see how it could be any simpler.


Here you go Lucan. If the last 3 years haven't demonstrated that in or out isn't a simple question then I don't know what will.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:11 - Jan 20 with 674 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:05 - Jan 20 by Championship

It's a fair point but it's so unlikely I just don't see it being an issue.


People have been lied to enough over Brexit, pretending now that no deal is a viable option is a continuation of those lies. Time to show some courage and tell the truth.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 with 662 viewspointofblue

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:01 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

So say no deal wins, we just rip up the Good Friday Agreement and let the economy descend into chaos? If Parliament has no intention of implementing a no deal then it shouldn't be on the ballot.


I hate to say it but if No Deal wins we live with the repercussions of No Deal. If we're to have a referendum on Deal v Remain then I think we need a General Election first so a party who is advocating this kind of referendum has the opportunity to win the vote and have public backing.

The argument for Remain was clearly not strong or passionate enough first time around and there may be an opportunity to sell it again - not Project Fear but Project Positive, selling the benefits of the European Union instead of issuing threats of what'll happen if we leave. We may be able to secure guarantees from the European Union over a lack of further integration or a European Army and withdrawing Article 50 on the same terms as before (in relation to the rebate etc.)

The mess has been made clear and only the blind or desperate will ignore the issues which have been born from the negotiations.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 with 662 viewsLord_Lucan

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:09 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

Here you go Lucan. If the last 3 years haven't demonstrated that in or out isn't a simple question then I don't know what will.


In or out is about as simple as you can get - unless of course you are a simpleton of course.

In - we stay in

Out - we leave.

If out then from there you have to negotiate your best terms.

Please advise what I am missing.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:20 - Jan 20 with 647 viewsDarth_Koont

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:11 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

People have been lied to enough over Brexit, pretending now that no deal is a viable option is a continuation of those lies. Time to show some courage and tell the truth.


Maybe we can all unite in wanting our politicians to Tell the Truth.

With far too many politicians lying, playing games and/or putting their careers and their parties first, is it any wonder that there's a political divide in this country?

This whole business has highlighted how our political system (and the media that reports on it/enables it) is institutionally dishonest and needs reform.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:20 - Jan 20 with 647 viewsartsbossbeard

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 by Lord_Lucan

In or out is about as simple as you can get - unless of course you are a simpleton of course.

In - we stay in

Out - we leave.

If out then from there you have to negotiate your best terms.

Please advise what I am missing.


Missed a trick by not referring to the negotiations as "the shake it all about"

Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:21 - Jan 20 with 642 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 by pointofblue

I hate to say it but if No Deal wins we live with the repercussions of No Deal. If we're to have a referendum on Deal v Remain then I think we need a General Election first so a party who is advocating this kind of referendum has the opportunity to win the vote and have public backing.

The argument for Remain was clearly not strong or passionate enough first time around and there may be an opportunity to sell it again - not Project Fear but Project Positive, selling the benefits of the European Union instead of issuing threats of what'll happen if we leave. We may be able to secure guarantees from the European Union over a lack of further integration or a European Army and withdrawing Article 50 on the same terms as before (in relation to the rebate etc.)

The mess has been made clear and only the blind or desperate will ignore the issues which have been born from the negotiations.


If we revoke Article 50 nothing changes regards the terms of our membership. That has already been clarified.

I think the idea of enacting no deal is bonkers to be honest.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:30 - Jan 20 with 613 viewspointofblue

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:21 - Jan 20 by Herbivore

If we revoke Article 50 nothing changes regards the terms of our membership. That has already been clarified.

I think the idea of enacting no deal is bonkers to be honest.


I agree - I just think repressing it in a refendum will just increase the liklihood of a No Deal exit further down the line.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:31 - Jan 20 with 610 viewsDarth_Koont

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 by Lord_Lucan

In or out is about as simple as you can get - unless of course you are a simpleton of course.

In - we stay in

Out - we leave.

If out then from there you have to negotiate your best terms.

Please advise what I am missing.


Even if our best Leave deal is a deal where we leave the EU in name only? Like a Norway deal that basically keep things as they are re: access to the single market, customs union and the four freedoms.

I'm up for that and it would be within your framework of a simple understanding of the previous referendum.

But if you can find even 10% of Leavers (and even a lot of Remainers) who would agree to this "simple" solution then good luck. Half of them think their vote was leaving the EU, the single market, the customs union and the ECJ. So they clearly didn't understand what they were voting for.
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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:36 - Jan 20 with 599 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:16 - Jan 20 by Lord_Lucan

In or out is about as simple as you can get - unless of course you are a simpleton of course.

In - we stay in

Out - we leave.

If out then from there you have to negotiate your best terms.

Please advise what I am missing.


On paper it looks simple, sure. The reality is very different though. Nobody had any real idea what leaving looked like.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:36 - Jan 20 with 597 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:30 - Jan 20 by pointofblue

I agree - I just think repressing it in a refendum will just increase the liklihood of a No Deal exit further down the line.


Disagree.

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:40 - Jan 20 with 594 viewsLord_Lucan

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:31 - Jan 20 by Darth_Koont

Even if our best Leave deal is a deal where we leave the EU in name only? Like a Norway deal that basically keep things as they are re: access to the single market, customs union and the four freedoms.

I'm up for that and it would be within your framework of a simple understanding of the previous referendum.

But if you can find even 10% of Leavers (and even a lot of Remainers) who would agree to this "simple" solution then good luck. Half of them think their vote was leaving the EU, the single market, the customs union and the ECJ. So they clearly didn't understand what they were voting for.


Whether the question was broad enough is irrelevant because it was what it was - in black and white. In fact I think most leavers voted on a complete crash out.

People who now move the goalposts are disingenuousness - and in any case it's really nothing to do with us, we lost.

How would you have liked it if we had won and then the BREXITERS started crying about a 2nd referendum because the original one didn't say on what basis should we remain?

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Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:43 - Jan 20 with 580 viewsHerbivore

Ministers considering a 2nd referendum on 13:40 - Jan 20 by Lord_Lucan

Whether the question was broad enough is irrelevant because it was what it was - in black and white. In fact I think most leavers voted on a complete crash out.

People who now move the goalposts are disingenuousness - and in any case it's really nothing to do with us, we lost.

How would you have liked it if we had won and then the BREXITERS started crying about a 2nd referendum because the original one didn't say on what basis should we remain?


Jesus wept.

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