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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. 11:42 - Jan 20 with 34048 viewsBrixtonBlue

They say the universe started with a big bang... but you can't have something just appearing out of nothing. Therefore, the universe can't have a beginning - and yet must do (because it exists). A paradox.

Similarly, if the universe is expanding (like they say it is), what is it expanding into? And whatever that is, what is on the other side of THAT? Therefore, the universe must go on forever... and yet can't do (everything has an end or edge). Another paradox.

Both of these paradoxes suggest the universe shouldn't exist. Its existence doesn't make sense.

Well surely then, the only logical conclusion is that it DOESN'T exist?!

It's either a figment of our imagination... or a purposely created virtual reality?

I appreciate this last bit isn't a new idea (The Matrix) - but how else do you explain the two paradoxes?

I hope someone can answer soon as I'm off to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich to watch a couple of shows about space and I don't want it to be a waste of time!

I bet Bloots will downarrow this.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:37 - Jan 21 with 4009 viewsBloomBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:28 - Jan 21 by sparks

What has that got to do with it?

Equally though, you are just wrong. There is lots of evidence.


Evidence is about proving it. If man ever lands on the moon and creates water from nothing I'll happily admit your theory is correct.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:41 - Jan 21 with 4002 viewstcblue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:13 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

OK, I get the bit about atheism. But what would you call a belief that there is a god - one called nature - ie a belief in the sheer wondrous complexity of our natural world, which has somehow evolved by chance despite all the odds being against it - just the right distance from the sun, just enough of the right kind of chemicals to create the right kind of atmosphere, water, minerals etc to support life, that created the drive to procreate etc etc etc? Would that be agnosticism? Interested as it's my position!


I don't know how to unpack this really.

Evolved by chance? Despite odds? I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Are you saying you think the earth evolved specifically to create a particular life, rather than the other way around (to quote Jurassic Park, life found a way)?!
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:41 - Jan 21 with 4002 viewsRyorry

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:24 - Jan 21 by sparks

I think you are muddying the waters by calling nature "god". If you call it nature, and revel in it then thats just great- and says nothing about belief in what people usual consider "god" at all.

I dont think we can say that we evolved despite all the odds- we dont know what the odds are. If we weren't in the right place for us to thrive then we wouldnt be here (though something else, adapted differnetly might be...)- and in millions or billions of other star systems, which are not perfect, we (or things like us) probably dont exist.

It reminds me of the Douglas Adams puddle. The puddle looks around and realises the world around fits it perfectly. The hole its in is the perfect shape and size to hold the puddle- so it assumes the hole was made specifically for its benefit...

We dont gain much from the semantic discussion of terms- whats important is what people's actual beliefs are imo. However, the way I (and many atheists) use the terms is this:

A theist is someone who believes in a personal god (i.e. one who is interested in the world and people in it). An atheist rejects that belief. Some atheists would go as far as to say that they believe there is no god, many simply say they do not believe there is.

Agnosticism is about knowledge. One can believe something without claiming to know it. You can have an agnostic theist- someone who believes in god but does claim to "know" its true. You can have an agnostic atheist- one who rejects the belief but doesnt claim absolute knowledge or certainty.


Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I should have said that nature is my god - I don't mean in the sense of a single "being", but the sense that I'm permanently awed & constantly marvelling that we, and the world, exist at all. The only description of that which has ever got close for me, was in one of TS Eliot's less well known poems, 'Marina', with its lines -

"What is this face, less clear and clearer

The pulse in the arm, less strong and stronger –

Given or lent? more distant than stars and nearer than the eye ..."

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tseliot-marina-lyrics.html

I sometimes get moments where I look at my arm and think "am I really alive, do I really exist? Yes - how truly amazing!"

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:43 - Jan 21 with 3994 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:37 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue

Evidence is about proving it. If man ever lands on the moon and creates water from nothing I'll happily admit your theory is correct.


You dont understand evidence. Or scientific theories. Or chemistry, it appears (water being just hydrogen and oxygen...)
[Post edited 21 Jan 2019 19:43]

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:43 - Jan 21 with 3993 viewstcblue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:37 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue

Evidence is about proving it. If man ever lands on the moon and creates water from nothing I'll happily admit your theory is correct.


But man didn't create water on earth. I'm reasonably certain that's the only 'fact' on this thread we will agree on.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:49 - Jan 21 with 3983 viewsRyorry

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:41 - Jan 21 by tcblue

I don't know how to unpack this really.

Evolved by chance? Despite odds? I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Are you saying you think the earth evolved specifically to create a particular life, rather than the other way around (to quote Jurassic Park, life found a way)?!


"Are you saying you think the earth evolved specifically to create a particular life?"

Absolutely not! I just think that everything having happened/evolved as it has (whether by chance or not) is absolutely miraculous. There are hundreds of amazing facts about how if there'd been a millionth of a part less chemical x, or if planet earth had fractionally less or more tilted, or if molecule y had been absent etc etc etc. - never mind the combination of all of them - life on earth would never have happened. I'll try to find some of them later.

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:52 - Jan 21 with 3978 viewsBloomBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:43 - Jan 21 by sparks

You dont understand evidence. Or scientific theories. Or chemistry, it appears (water being just hydrogen and oxygen...)
[Post edited 21 Jan 2019 19:43]


Should easy to create on the moon or mars then
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:54 - Jan 21 with 3973 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:52 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue

Should easy to create on the moon or mars then


Already there...

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:56 - Jan 21 with 3966 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:49 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

"Are you saying you think the earth evolved specifically to create a particular life?"

Absolutely not! I just think that everything having happened/evolved as it has (whether by chance or not) is absolutely miraculous. There are hundreds of amazing facts about how if there'd been a millionth of a part less chemical x, or if planet earth had fractionally less or more tilted, or if molecule y had been absent etc etc etc. - never mind the combination of all of them - life on earth would never have happened. I'll try to find some of them later.


The point being that there are billions and billions of stars, with (probably) many more planets. We might be a unique planet, though I doubt it.

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:01 - Jan 21 with 3958 viewsRyorry

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:56 - Jan 21 by sparks

The point being that there are billions and billions of stars, with (probably) many more planets. We might be a unique planet, though I doubt it.


If there is/are other/s, then I'd see those as miraculous too!

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:02 - Jan 21 with 3954 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:01 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

If there is/are other/s, then I'd see those as miraculous too!


I understand that entirely.

I just dont think we can say the odds are against it. We could easily be one planet in a billion.

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:04 - Jan 21 with 3950 viewstcblue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:54 - Jan 21 by sparks

Already there...


Look what Jesus did
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:53 - Jan 21 with 3932 viewsRyorry

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:02 - Jan 21 by sparks

I understand that entirely.

I just dont think we can say the odds are against it. We could easily be one planet in a billion.


Not sure I understand you there - do you mean if there are billions of planets out there, one of them's bound to end up with the right conditions?

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:57 - Jan 21 with 3928 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:53 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

Not sure I understand you there - do you mean if there are billions of planets out there, one of them's bound to end up with the right conditions?


There are two limbs to it:

1- pretty much as you say. If this was the only planet then perhaps we could say that its amazing that it happens to have ideal conditions. But its one of billions, in all likelihood. Some of them are likely to have good conditions for our type of life. And our type of life would only happen on the planets which are hospitable to it, so its no coincidence that we exist on this planet which is hospitable to our development.

2- The type of life which could evolve must depend entirely on the environment. If this planet had very different conditions, then perhaps another type of life would have evolved, and be asking the same questions?

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:00 - Jan 21 with 3924 viewsBloomBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:54 - Jan 21 by sparks

Already there...


In theory.

Yes there are lots of theories how we have vast amounts of water on the earth and no other planet we can see has it. The main theory is the water was already in the rocks, but even scientist admit that's a theory which has many challenges to prove. Especially what forced the water from the rocks, one theory is meteorites smashing into earth but scientists accept the issue with that is the earth heat would've evaporated it. That's always the problem with the theory. We have so much water on earth now the water cycle creates more water but when earth was formed there wasn't that volume of water

It was God who create the earth with huge amounts of water
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:01 - Jan 21 with 3924 viewsStokieBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:01 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

If there is/are other/s, then I'd see those as miraculous too!


It's not miraculous though.

It's wonderful yes, but at the base level is physics.

Confusing wonderful with miraculous is why we have this issue.

SB

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:04 - Jan 21 with 3923 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:00 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue

In theory.

Yes there are lots of theories how we have vast amounts of water on the earth and no other planet we can see has it. The main theory is the water was already in the rocks, but even scientist admit that's a theory which has many challenges to prove. Especially what forced the water from the rocks, one theory is meteorites smashing into earth but scientists accept the issue with that is the earth heat would've evaporated it. That's always the problem with the theory. We have so much water on earth now the water cycle creates more water but when earth was formed there wasn't that volume of water

It was God who create the earth with huge amounts of water


Lots of planets are thought to have water. Mars for a start.

More to the point, even if there was merit in your suggestion that there is some great mystery here, the rational answer is not "god". That is the classic "god of the gaps" argument, or an "argument from igonrance fallacy".

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:13 - Jan 21 with 3915 viewstcblue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:04 - Jan 21 by sparks

Lots of planets are thought to have water. Mars for a start.

More to the point, even if there was merit in your suggestion that there is some great mystery here, the rational answer is not "god". That is the classic "god of the gaps" argument, or an "argument from igonrance fallacy".


Not thought to, Mars and our moon have been confirmed to have ice. Mars is also (using radar which can analyse the surface as well as near surface) believed to have liquid water underground, and the moon has transient liquid water depending on atmospheric conditions.

A whole host of further planets, moons and comets also have ice. Our planet is unique only in having large amounts of liquid surface water, that we know of.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:15 - Jan 21 with 3912 viewssparks

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:13 - Jan 21 by tcblue

Not thought to, Mars and our moon have been confirmed to have ice. Mars is also (using radar which can analyse the surface as well as near surface) believed to have liquid water underground, and the moon has transient liquid water depending on atmospheric conditions.

A whole host of further planets, moons and comets also have ice. Our planet is unique only in having large amounts of liquid surface water, that we know of.


Quite.

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:18 - Jan 21 with 3902 viewsBrixtonBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:00 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue

In theory.

Yes there are lots of theories how we have vast amounts of water on the earth and no other planet we can see has it. The main theory is the water was already in the rocks, but even scientist admit that's a theory which has many challenges to prove. Especially what forced the water from the rocks, one theory is meteorites smashing into earth but scientists accept the issue with that is the earth heat would've evaporated it. That's always the problem with the theory. We have so much water on earth now the water cycle creates more water but when earth was formed there wasn't that volume of water

It was God who create the earth with huge amounts of water


I thought water came from the air rather than rocks?

I bet Bloots will downarrow this.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:18 - Jan 21 with 3902 viewsOxford_Blue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:13 - Jan 21 by Ryorry

OK, I get the bit about atheism. But what would you call a belief that there is a god - one called nature - ie a belief in the sheer wondrous complexity of our natural world, which has somehow evolved by chance despite all the odds being against it - just the right distance from the sun, just enough of the right kind of chemicals to create the right kind of atmosphere, water, minerals etc to support life, that created the drive to procreate etc etc etc? Would that be agnosticism? Interested as it's my position!


Given the billions of billions of stars, if only 1000 could support life the odds would be fantastically low.

That’s exactly what the odds are.

The universe is so vast. It’s incomprehensible.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:19 - Jan 21 with 3897 viewsHerbivore

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:13 - Jan 21 by tcblue

Not thought to, Mars and our moon have been confirmed to have ice. Mars is also (using radar which can analyse the surface as well as near surface) believed to have liquid water underground, and the moon has transient liquid water depending on atmospheric conditions.

A whole host of further planets, moons and comets also have ice. Our planet is unique only in having large amounts of liquid surface water, that we know of.


The ice planet Hoth is made almost entirely of ice, for example.

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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:23 - Jan 21 with 3883 viewsOxford_Blue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 20:02 - Jan 21 by sparks

I understand that entirely.

I just dont think we can say the odds are against it. We could easily be one planet in a billion.


Exactly. Given there are billions of billions of stars, if one in a billion could support life there would be thousands of planets with life on.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:27 - Jan 21 with 3875 viewsBrixtonBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:23 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue

Exactly. Given there are billions of billions of stars, if one in a billion could support life there would be thousands of planets with life on.


There are 300 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone, of which our sun is just one.

And there are billions of galaxies.

I bet Bloots will downarrow this.
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Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:29 - Jan 21 with 3871 viewsBloomBlue

Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 21:19 - Jan 21 by Herbivore

The ice planet Hoth is made almost entirely of ice, for example.


Correct but the Hoth planet is many astronomical miles away from a sun which is why it doesn't melt plus its not in our galaxy I forget which one but it's in a galaxy far, far away
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