Presented without comment on 08:20 - Jan 30 with 3008 views | Durovigutum | I thought it was going to be a piece on why the British get so excited about snowy weather. Disappointed now... | | | |
Presented without comment on 08:24 - Jan 30 with 2970 views | Herbivore | Sounds like a public health issue to me. | |
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Presented without comment on 08:59 - Jan 30 with 2954 views | Guthrum | Read that and thought of you. Would have posted it if you hadn't already done so. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:07 - Jan 30 with 2918 views | Darth_Koont | "But does middle-class cocaine use really cause knife crime? “To my mind, the focus on middle-class cocaine users is a smokescreen for the failure to deal with the underlying causes of youth crime and violence,” says Prof Alex Stevens, an expert in criminal justice at the University of Kent, and the president of the International Society of the Study of Drug Policy. Since 2011, the coalition and Conservative governments have consistently attempted to link gangs and youth violence to drugs. But while street-level violence may be seen in the dealing of crack cocaine across so called county lines, powdered cocaine has a different supply chain. “Middle-class users don’t get their coke from young kids who are riding motorbikes out of council estates,” Stevens says. “There is violence in that supply chain too, but most of it happens in Latin America.” If the evidence is shaky, why are politicians so keen to connect these dots? “It’s a strategy to keep in people’s minds the link between drugs and black youths,” says Stafford Scott, an anti-racism campaigner based in Tottenham, north London. It also allows them to shirk responsibility for dealing with the real causes of knife crime: “poverty, isolation and marginalisation”. Has Scott ever seen any evidence of cocaine dealing in the communities he works with? “You don’t see powdered cocaine in the ’hood,” he says." | |
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Replied without comment (n/t) on 09:08 - Jan 30 with 2929 views | wkj | | |
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Presented without comment on 09:14 - Jan 30 with 2908 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 08:59 - Jan 30 by Guthrum | Read that and thought of you. Would have posted it if you hadn't already done so. |
Thank you. You never know it may make one or two people reading on here think twice! | |
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Presented without comment on 09:15 - Jan 30 with 2903 views | BackToRussia |
Presented without comment on 09:07 - Jan 30 by Darth_Koont | "But does middle-class cocaine use really cause knife crime? “To my mind, the focus on middle-class cocaine users is a smokescreen for the failure to deal with the underlying causes of youth crime and violence,” says Prof Alex Stevens, an expert in criminal justice at the University of Kent, and the president of the International Society of the Study of Drug Policy. Since 2011, the coalition and Conservative governments have consistently attempted to link gangs and youth violence to drugs. But while street-level violence may be seen in the dealing of crack cocaine across so called county lines, powdered cocaine has a different supply chain. “Middle-class users don’t get their coke from young kids who are riding motorbikes out of council estates,” Stevens says. “There is violence in that supply chain too, but most of it happens in Latin America.” If the evidence is shaky, why are politicians so keen to connect these dots? “It’s a strategy to keep in people’s minds the link between drugs and black youths,” says Stafford Scott, an anti-racism campaigner based in Tottenham, north London. It also allows them to shirk responsibility for dealing with the real causes of knife crime: “poverty, isolation and marginalisation”. Has Scott ever seen any evidence of cocaine dealing in the communities he works with? “You don’t see powdered cocaine in the ’hood,” he says." |
Yeah, I did wonder why chico is posting an article that undermines his argument. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:18 - Jan 30 with 2875 views | Marshalls_Mullet | Easy. Just say no!! | |
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Presented without comment on 09:31 - Jan 30 with 2857 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 09:15 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | Yeah, I did wonder why chico is posting an article that undermines his argument. |
My argument that people shouldn't buy drugs because it fuels the chaos and criminality on our streets and cities and encourages young people to kill each other? Or a different one? | |
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Presented without comment on 09:33 - Jan 30 with 2849 views | BackToRussia |
Presented without comment on 09:31 - Jan 30 by chicoazul | My argument that people shouldn't buy drugs because it fuels the chaos and criminality on our streets and cities and encourages young people to kill each other? Or a different one? |
Yes that one. The one that the article spends a couple of paragraphs questionin. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:35 - Jan 30 with 2827 views | Herbivore |
Presented without comment on 09:33 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | Yes that one. The one that the article spends a couple of paragraphs questionin. |
It's almost like he didn't read or absorb that bit. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:37 - Jan 30 with 2843 views | itfcjoe | I'm amazed how prevalent it has got in the last couple of years, it really has increased massively. Just from personal experience I've been on a couple of stag dos recently... First one - we get to first pub after landing in Poland and some blokes nip outside and start doing a load. Turned out one bloke had just put a load in his sock as we travelled there - through the airport with body scanners etc. How stupid. Next one - bloke turns up to the airport at 8 in the morning, realises he has some in his wallet and just goes and does it in the bathroom as doesn't want to travel with it. Then we get there and the next day a few guys get hold of some. How is it all organised? I'm obviously so naive to it. A couple of weeks ago was in a town centre pub and someone was just openly talking to either a dealer or mate and putting their order in. This is in a decent establishment and no one really batted an eyelid as was clearly audible. Police turn a blind eye to it now, with funding cuts - I know that for a fact | |
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Presented without comment on 09:38 - Jan 30 with 2835 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 09:33 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | Yes that one. The one that the article spends a couple of paragraphs questionin. |
You're acting like questioning things is a bad thing. I dont mind it being questioned, at all. Debate is healthy, I know this can be difficult for several people to get their heads around. I will say that I am particularly interested in the line "There is violence in that supply chain too, but most of it happens in Latin America.” from the Professor I presume you are referring to. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:40 - Jan 30 with 2814 views | Darth_Koont |
Presented without comment on 09:31 - Jan 30 by chicoazul | My argument that people shouldn't buy drugs because it fuels the chaos and criminality on our streets and cities and encourages young people to kill each other? Or a different one? |
Maybe that you try to connect all drugs to all crime. Stop drug-related crime and its causes by all means as well as tackling abuse and addiction. But as these quotes indicate there are bigger problems that are being swept under the carpet when you take a blanket approach to drugs and the chaos and criminality on our streets. An obsession with a direct cause-effect is misleading and dangerous. And lets a lot more responsible people off the hook. Like certain politicians and voters with an utter disdain for the underprivileged in this country. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:40 - Jan 30 with 2821 views | Guthrum |
Presented without comment on 09:07 - Jan 30 by Darth_Koont | "But does middle-class cocaine use really cause knife crime? “To my mind, the focus on middle-class cocaine users is a smokescreen for the failure to deal with the underlying causes of youth crime and violence,” says Prof Alex Stevens, an expert in criminal justice at the University of Kent, and the president of the International Society of the Study of Drug Policy. Since 2011, the coalition and Conservative governments have consistently attempted to link gangs and youth violence to drugs. But while street-level violence may be seen in the dealing of crack cocaine across so called county lines, powdered cocaine has a different supply chain. “Middle-class users don’t get their coke from young kids who are riding motorbikes out of council estates,” Stevens says. “There is violence in that supply chain too, but most of it happens in Latin America.” If the evidence is shaky, why are politicians so keen to connect these dots? “It’s a strategy to keep in people’s minds the link between drugs and black youths,” says Stafford Scott, an anti-racism campaigner based in Tottenham, north London. It also allows them to shirk responsibility for dealing with the real causes of knife crime: “poverty, isolation and marginalisation”. Has Scott ever seen any evidence of cocaine dealing in the communities he works with? “You don’t see powdered cocaine in the ’hood,” he says." |
But, as the article goes on to point out, if the knife-crime is more around the supply of crack rather than powder cocaine in the UK, then there is still a considerable amount of violence in the production and supply chain, particularly in South America. Not sure the Albanian mafia are much more pleasant than knife gangs in London. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:42 - Jan 30 with 2813 views | BackToRussia |
Presented without comment on 09:38 - Jan 30 by chicoazul | You're acting like questioning things is a bad thing. I dont mind it being questioned, at all. Debate is healthy, I know this can be difficult for several people to get their heads around. I will say that I am particularly interested in the line "There is violence in that supply chain too, but most of it happens in Latin America.” from the Professor I presume you are referring to. |
So the violence associated with the drug trade happens in very specific places in the UK and Latin America, between people actively involved in the drug trade? And not some sort of nationwide carnage involving innocent bystanders. See, now that's what I've always thought anyway. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:44 - Jan 30 with 2803 views | Lord_Lucan |
Presented without comment on 09:37 - Jan 30 by itfcjoe | I'm amazed how prevalent it has got in the last couple of years, it really has increased massively. Just from personal experience I've been on a couple of stag dos recently... First one - we get to first pub after landing in Poland and some blokes nip outside and start doing a load. Turned out one bloke had just put a load in his sock as we travelled there - through the airport with body scanners etc. How stupid. Next one - bloke turns up to the airport at 8 in the morning, realises he has some in his wallet and just goes and does it in the bathroom as doesn't want to travel with it. Then we get there and the next day a few guys get hold of some. How is it all organised? I'm obviously so naive to it. A couple of weeks ago was in a town centre pub and someone was just openly talking to either a dealer or mate and putting their order in. This is in a decent establishment and no one really batted an eyelid as was clearly audible. Police turn a blind eye to it now, with funding cuts - I know that for a fact |
For future reference tell your mate to put it in the pocket of a pair of unwashed jeans in a case that goes into the hold. [Post edited 30 Jan 2019 9:44]
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Presented without comment on 09:50 - Jan 30 with 2768 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 09:42 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | So the violence associated with the drug trade happens in very specific places in the UK and Latin America, between people actively involved in the drug trade? And not some sort of nationwide carnage involving innocent bystanders. See, now that's what I've always thought anyway. |
That's not what I took from it. I took it to mean, it happens over there so that doesnt really matter. Examples of people actively involved in the drug trade include children as young as 10 and there is an associated article in that Graun link talking about a 16yo getting involved and being stabbed dozens of times. Vulnerable children. That's who you're talking about. There is also this paragraph from the article; Whether or not you agree that cocaine causes knife crime on our streets, one thing is for certain: cocaine causes damage. Maybe the damage takes place in a faraway country you prefer not to think about. Maybe it’s a subtler form of damage: to your relationships, finances, wellbeing or career. In other words, innocent bystanders that you talk about can include ones family and friends being caught up in both the violence and the emotional fallout caused by people buying drugs to have fun. Maybe they dont matter, I dont know. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:50 - Jan 30 with 2771 views | itfcjoe |
Presented without comment on 09:44 - Jan 30 by Lord_Lucan | For future reference tell your mate to put it in the pocket of a pair of unwashed jeans in a case that goes into the hold. [Post edited 30 Jan 2019 9:44]
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No one was even checking a bag in - our copper mate when we told him told us that we'd missed a sniffer dog training session at the airport by about half an hour so he was incredibly lucky | |
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Presented without comment on 09:53 - Jan 30 with 2751 views | Lord_Lucan |
Presented without comment on 09:50 - Jan 30 by itfcjoe | No one was even checking a bag in - our copper mate when we told him told us that we'd missed a sniffer dog training session at the airport by about half an hour so he was incredibly lucky |
I'm surprised it didn't show on the X Ray, if you are insistent on taking something over (which is plain daft) then take a hold bag and do what I suggested. Waiting the other side for your bag to come through is a lot better than waiting in a cell. | |
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Presented without comment on 09:55 - Jan 30 with 2743 views | itfcjoe |
Presented without comment on 09:53 - Jan 30 by Lord_Lucan | I'm surprised it didn't show on the X Ray, if you are insistent on taking something over (which is plain daft) then take a hold bag and do what I suggested. Waiting the other side for your bag to come through is a lot better than waiting in a cell. |
What they took over was done in about 2 minutes between 3 or 4 of them - totally unnecessary and stupid - Im sure they could have easily sourced someone to meet us in first pub if they were that desperate | |
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Presented without comment on 10:09 - Jan 30 with 2702 views | BackToRussia |
Presented without comment on 09:50 - Jan 30 by chicoazul | That's not what I took from it. I took it to mean, it happens over there so that doesnt really matter. Examples of people actively involved in the drug trade include children as young as 10 and there is an associated article in that Graun link talking about a 16yo getting involved and being stabbed dozens of times. Vulnerable children. That's who you're talking about. There is also this paragraph from the article; Whether or not you agree that cocaine causes knife crime on our streets, one thing is for certain: cocaine causes damage. Maybe the damage takes place in a faraway country you prefer not to think about. Maybe it’s a subtler form of damage: to your relationships, finances, wellbeing or career. In other words, innocent bystanders that you talk about can include ones family and friends being caught up in both the violence and the emotional fallout caused by people buying drugs to have fun. Maybe they dont matter, I dont know. |
Maybe I'm just not as naive as you. There's an illegal drug trade. This is a direct consequence of a blanket ban on it by most governments. The illegal drug trade is going to have upper management (the Albanians and Colombians), middle management (local drug lords), and the minimum wage staff (runners, who are criminals and kids). This has all happened under the aegis of prohibition. So yes, the drug trade is to blame, but it is addressing a demand that has not gone away, shows no sign of going away, in 100 years. So either you wage more of a war on the suppliers, or you legalise it and tackle its worst effects head on with the apparatus of the state. Your solution seems to guilt individual users into thinking they are culpable in large scale international crime in order to make them stop. I happen to think that this is not going to change an almost eternal fact: people like getting fvcked up. | |
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Presented without comment on 10:11 - Jan 30 with 2691 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 10:09 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | Maybe I'm just not as naive as you. There's an illegal drug trade. This is a direct consequence of a blanket ban on it by most governments. The illegal drug trade is going to have upper management (the Albanians and Colombians), middle management (local drug lords), and the minimum wage staff (runners, who are criminals and kids). This has all happened under the aegis of prohibition. So yes, the drug trade is to blame, but it is addressing a demand that has not gone away, shows no sign of going away, in 100 years. So either you wage more of a war on the suppliers, or you legalise it and tackle its worst effects head on with the apparatus of the state. Your solution seems to guilt individual users into thinking they are culpable in large scale international crime in order to make them stop. I happen to think that this is not going to change an almost eternal fact: people like getting fvcked up. |
Individual users are culpable. | |
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Presented without comment on 10:15 - Jan 30 with 2675 views | BackToRussia |
Presented without comment on 10:11 - Jan 30 by chicoazul | Individual users are culpable. |
OK, good luck on your personal mission to convince the world's population to stop taking mind altering substances. While you're doing it, perhaps you can look up Hegel's concept of a Beautiful Soul. | |
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Presented without comment on 10:22 - Jan 30 with 2657 views | chicoazul |
Presented without comment on 10:15 - Jan 30 by BackToRussia | OK, good luck on your personal mission to convince the world's population to stop taking mind altering substances. While you're doing it, perhaps you can look up Hegel's concept of a Beautiful Soul. |
People who buy drugs are directly culpable in the deaths of children both here and in countries of origin. I will keep trying and who knows, maybe a few minds will be changed and people will stop doing it? | |
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