| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 09:55 - Feb 1 with 2614 views | chicoazul |
I read that 10 minutes ago. Gary Younge is excellent and that article is spot on in just about every way. |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:00 - Feb 1 with 2579 views | Herbivore |
It's interesting but what he paints is a hopeless picture. He also glosses over immigrating being the main motivator for leave voters. |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 with 2565 views | Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:11 - Feb 1 with 2555 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |
The "happy to be poorer" subtext is mostly based on what has happened since the Referendum both in terms of attitudes and explanations for why some voted as they did. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:11 - Feb 1 with 2542 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |
In its own way it's comfortably as patronising as the viewpoint he's criticising. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:21 - Feb 1 with 2516 views | Guthrum |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:00 - Feb 1 by Herbivore |
It's interesting but what he paints is a hopeless picture. He also glosses over immigrating being the main motivator for leave voters. |
Fears about immigration and sovreignty are all tied up in a feeling of helplessness, of losing control.
Many of the areas which voted strongly to leave (the North East, the north Midlands, South Wales) are places where the entire raison d'etre of their communities died following a series of violent convulsions in the late 1980s (the closure of mines and heavy industry). Those who have little, have little to lose. If there is no hope of future prosperity by conventional means, then radical solutions will be resorted to. That is how a lot of revolutions start (France in 1789 was triggered by an economic crisis and austerity leading to bread riots).
It's only 'hopeless' in that it is now too late to rescue much from the Brexit situation. More should have been done decades ago, but nobody wanted to have to pay for it. |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:32 - Feb 1 with 2475 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:21 - Feb 1 by Guthrum |
Fears about immigration and sovreignty are all tied up in a feeling of helplessness, of losing control.
Many of the areas which voted strongly to leave (the North East, the north Midlands, South Wales) are places where the entire raison d'etre of their communities died following a series of violent convulsions in the late 1980s (the closure of mines and heavy industry). Those who have little, have little to lose. If there is no hope of future prosperity by conventional means, then radical solutions will be resorted to. That is how a lot of revolutions start (France in 1789 was triggered by an economic crisis and austerity leading to bread riots).
It's only 'hopeless' in that it is now too late to rescue much from the Brexit situation. More should have been done decades ago, but nobody wanted to have to pay for it. |
It's hopeless full stop. We have a press that revels in blaming the 'other' for everything rather than opening up and enabling debate about the issues you discuss. We have an education system that actively avoids critical thinking and political consciousness. The country will just keep endlessly shooting itself in the foot whilst the elite prosper. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:40 - Feb 1 with 2464 views | Steve_M |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:21 - Feb 1 by Guthrum |
Fears about immigration and sovreignty are all tied up in a feeling of helplessness, of losing control.
Many of the areas which voted strongly to leave (the North East, the north Midlands, South Wales) are places where the entire raison d'etre of their communities died following a series of violent convulsions in the late 1980s (the closure of mines and heavy industry). Those who have little, have little to lose. If there is no hope of future prosperity by conventional means, then radical solutions will be resorted to. That is how a lot of revolutions start (France in 1789 was triggered by an economic crisis and austerity leading to bread riots).
It's only 'hopeless' in that it is now too late to rescue much from the Brexit situation. More should have been done decades ago, but nobody wanted to have to pay for it. |
On a slight tangent to your point but one of the biggest risks with Brexit is that car manufacturing and agriculture in the UK go the same way as mining and heavy industry. Certainly Patrick Minford and the IEA in their myriad pieces of analysis don't care what happens. Politicians should. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:45 - Feb 1 with 2448 views | Guthrum |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:40 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
On a slight tangent to your point but one of the biggest risks with Brexit is that car manufacturing and agriculture in the UK go the same way as mining and heavy industry. Certainly Patrick Minford and the IEA in their myriad pieces of analysis don't care what happens. Politicians should. |
Indeed. I've been saying for years that there's going to be a crisis in agriculture. Margins are so low that, without subsidies, a lot of farmers are going to go to the wall. Many have already.
Back to a situation like the 1930s, when a sizeable proportion of UK agricultural land was left fallow as not being economic to cultivate. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:49 - Feb 1 with 2429 views | Guthrum |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:32 - Feb 1 by Herbivore |
It's hopeless full stop. We have a press that revels in blaming the 'other' for everything rather than opening up and enabling debate about the issues you discuss. We have an education system that actively avoids critical thinking and political consciousness. The country will just keep endlessly shooting itself in the foot whilst the elite prosper. |
Indeed. Also a fair degree of regional (and individual) selfishness in which people want to keep all the benefits of success for themselves, rather than building a good society. Libertarian individualism (e.g. popular Thatcherism, the "greed is good" mentality) has a lot to answer for. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:54 - Feb 1 with 2407 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:49 - Feb 1 by Guthrum |
Indeed. Also a fair degree of regional (and individual) selfishness in which people want to keep all the benefits of success for themselves, rather than building a good society. Libertarian individualism (e.g. popular Thatcherism, the "greed is good" mentality) has a lot to answer for. |
Couldn't agree more. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:57 - Feb 1 with 2412 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |
Agreed. He's buying into the new rhetoric from Brexiteers that they said all along that people would be poorer. That's blatantly not true.
What he's done here is correctly counter the view that wealth is a key driver (which has been a tool in the remainer's armoury). What he hasn't done is challenge this misplaced view that the EU was screwing people over, rather than this country. Again another lie propagated by the Leave side.
"Quite why well-off liberals in particular would find someone voting against their material interests such a baffling idea is odd." This isn't what's baffling. What's baffling to me is that they've been persuaded to misdirect their anger towards foreigners. They're being played by the very elite they calim to be railing against.
(Nb. I'd also challenge Younge's claim that "Whenever they [well-off liberals] vote Labour, or for any party that plans to raise taxes on the wealthy and redistribute income, they vote to make themselves worse off materially." I'd class myself as a well-off liberal (relatively), yet I've found taxation to increase significantly under the Tories). |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:32 - Feb 1 with 2373 views | No9 |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |
Despite the making it pretty clear at Davros things are going to get worse that still doesn't seem to have hit home with those who voted leave.
The obvious question is why do they think they are isolated or can cope
What still hasn't beed looked at it how much worse can it get and how long will that last.
None of the omens are good but that isn't being discussed other than is a few circles.
It isn't project fear, it is confronting reality to consider what & where |  | | |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:48 - Feb 1 with 2365 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:57 - Feb 1 by Swansea_Blue |
Agreed. He's buying into the new rhetoric from Brexiteers that they said all along that people would be poorer. That's blatantly not true.
What he's done here is correctly counter the view that wealth is a key driver (which has been a tool in the remainer's armoury). What he hasn't done is challenge this misplaced view that the EU was screwing people over, rather than this country. Again another lie propagated by the Leave side.
"Quite why well-off liberals in particular would find someone voting against their material interests such a baffling idea is odd." This isn't what's baffling. What's baffling to me is that they've been persuaded to misdirect their anger towards foreigners. They're being played by the very elite they calim to be railing against.
(Nb. I'd also challenge Younge's claim that "Whenever they [well-off liberals] vote Labour, or for any party that plans to raise taxes on the wealthy and redistribute income, they vote to make themselves worse off materially." I'd class myself as a well-off liberal (relatively), yet I've found taxation to increase significantly under the Tories). |
I dont agree with that assessment in your first sentence at all. If you dont have much, you dont have much to lose. I still dont understand why people can't or wont see the blatantly obvious reasons why so many people voted leave. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:51 - Feb 1 with 2337 views | No9 |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:48 - Feb 1 by chicoazul |
I dont agree with that assessment in your first sentence at all. If you dont have much, you dont have much to lose. I still dont understand why people can't or wont see the blatantly obvious reasons why so many people voted leave. |
The reasons people voted leave, in reality, had nothing to do with the EU.
The UN report makes that clear | | | |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:52 - Feb 1 with 2343 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:51 - Feb 1 by No9 |
The reasons people voted leave, in reality, had nothing to do with the EU.
The UN report makes that clear |
What UN report? | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:52 - Feb 1 with 2337 views | Darth_Koont |
That would be fair enough if the prevailing narrative in this country hadn't been so anti-EU fueled by politicians and media who have grossly misrepresented the pros and cons for their own ends.
And this has also been combined with a high level of dog-whistling around immigration.
Why for example did Scotland have a completely different take on Europe and UKIP? Do we have different values or is it more that Scotland had already stopped believing much of the narrative coming from the south? |  |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 12:59 - Feb 1 with 2271 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:09 - Feb 1 by Steve_M |
It is a decent piece but how many people actually voted to be poorer? Given the Leave campaign dismissed any hint of things being worse off as Project Fear and promised millions for the NHS and myriad other benefits did people really vote to leave in spite of the rhetoric of the leave campaign?
And given the chief reason that some are now saying they are happy to be poorer seems to be that it was to reduce immigration, what happens when they still see brown people on the streets or hear polish spoken? |
It's a good point. I seem to have a vague memory of someone in one of the Leave campaigns talking about short-term costs and inconveniences but can't say anyone ever talked about more than that until after the referendum.
I also don't remember the economic arguments and warnings against Brexit ever being referred to as a price worth paying until afterwards. As you say, it was Project Fear all the way until the referendum result - and it's only afterwards that this mantra has started to fade out. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 13:03 - Feb 1 with 2264 views | No9 |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 11:52 - Feb 1 by chicoazul |
What UN report? |
The UN report on poverty in the UK
Made it plain it was caused by political choices not by circumstances | | | |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 13:08 - Feb 1 with 2260 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 13:03 - Feb 1 by No9 |
The UN report on poverty in the UK
Made it plain it was caused by political choices not by circumstances |
If you're saying part of the reason many people voted leave was because they are poor then I agree. | |
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| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 13:21 - Feb 1 with 2243 views | No9 |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 13:08 - Feb 1 by chicoazul |
If you're saying part of the reason many people voted leave was because they are poor then I agree. |
That is supposedly why they voted to leave however, I am not sure any thuoght it through because in the N.E. of England they look like making the problems worse. | | | |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 22:30 - Feb 1 with 2146 views | Ryorry |
| Brexit: Thought this was quite an interesting editorial on 10:45 - Feb 1 by Guthrum |
Indeed. I've been saying for years that there's going to be a crisis in agriculture. Margins are so low that, without subsidies, a lot of farmers are going to go to the wall. Many have already.
Back to a situation like the 1930s, when a sizeable proportion of UK agricultural land was left fallow as not being economic to cultivate. |
I've said before that farmers voting to leave had me completely baffled, but I think a lot of their views were down to, in the grand scheme of things, the sheer plankton level arse grind of bureaucracy and form-filling required by the EU to obtain subsidies. Well that, and the perceived inequalities of regulation, most UK farmers saying that welfare standards observed by them weren't adhered to by others in the 27. The CAP was always a bone of contention, along with the Fisheries policy. |  |
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