| Venezuela's oil 19:45 - Feb 3 with 21786 views | Guthrum |
Interesting conversation I had with someone on the subject.
The crude oil which comes out of the ground is not all the same stuff. What we get from under the North Sea is "light and sweet", low in sulphur and ideal for making petrol. Venezuela, on the other hand, has some of the world's largest reserves of very heavy oil.
This is harder to extract, lower priced (which is why they've been harder hit than other major producers), includes more contaminants and is generally less useful, not containing the volatile fractions which can be turned into fuel. So, far from being a highly sought-after resource (such as some of the Middle Eastern fields or the North Sea), it's not really that attractive. The USA has fairly large quantities of the stuff already.
Hardly the kind of thing you'd go to all the effort of destabilising a country for. This is more about geopolitics and the country's internal affairs than oil. |  |
| |  |
| Venezuela's oil on 19:53 - Feb 3 with 4467 views | Herbivore |
The US has always done everything possible to destabilise and undermine socialist governments in Latin America, oil or no oil. |  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:00 - Feb 3 with 4454 views | Steve_M |
Indeed. And also as a result of that Venezuela imports US light crude for it's own use. In fact, it needs to blend most of it's own oil because it's too heavy and viscose to transport easily. Chaves used the state oil company as a cash cow, giving cheap oil to Cuba to buy support and to buy votes domestically.
Once the oil price collapsed in 2014 that largesse became impossible. That was made worse because PDVSA had been run appallingly by political appointees rather than professional managers and thus Venezuela suffered a far greater decline in national income than any other oil producing state. |  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:06 - Feb 3 with 4441 views | sparks |
It is regrettable that certain political groupings actively misrepresent this- on mainstream media, for their political ends. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:10 - Feb 3 with 4434 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 19:53 - Feb 3 by Herbivore |
The US has always done everything possible to destabilise and undermine socialist governments in Latin America, oil or no oil. |
Last week a number of posters went to great efforts to state that Venezuela wasn't a socialist government.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:11 - Feb 3 with 4428 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:06 - Feb 3 by sparks |
It is regrettable that certain political groupings actively misrepresent this- on mainstream media, for their political ends. |
Not just on mainstream media, this board has a number of posters who blame the US for anything they can regardless of the facts of the situation. I pointed it out a few times last week but it won't change.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:13 - Feb 3 with 4425 views | sparks |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:11 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Not just on mainstream media, this board has a number of posters who blame the US for anything they can regardless of the facts of the situation. I pointed it out a few times last week but it won't change.
SB |
Thats true as well. But there was a labour person on QT last week who made the assertion about Venezuela's oil- without this important caveat... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:32 - Feb 3 with 4393 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:11 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Not just on mainstream media, this board has a number of posters who blame the US for anything they can regardless of the facts of the situation. I pointed it out a few times last week but it won't change.
SB |
This thread is a very informative read.
|  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:49 - Feb 3 with 4353 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:32 - Feb 3 by GlasgowBlue |
This thread is a very informative read.
|
Interesting but very inconvenient for people wishing to push an agenda - I'm sure you saw the thread last week citing basically all the myths he's shot down.
I've just watched Livingstone on This Week. I'm totally shocked he said something that supported his position without actually being factually correct. Shocked I tell you.
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 20:51]
| |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Venezuela's oil on 21:05 - Feb 3 with 4309 views | BackToRussia |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:49 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Interesting but very inconvenient for people wishing to push an agenda - I'm sure you saw the thread last week citing basically all the myths he's shot down.
I've just watched Livingstone on This Week. I'm totally shocked he said something that supported his position without actually being factually correct. Shocked I tell you.
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 20:51]
|
The agenda is that the US has intervened illegally, with military force, countless times in Central and South America over a period of many decades. Either you accept that Venezuela is part of that narrative too, no matter how incompetent or evil you think Chavez or Maduro to be, or you don't.
Do you not see how a military and economic super power dictating terms and removing democratically elected governments on your backdoor over a number of decades may have led to situations like Venezuela? |  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:07 - Feb 3 with 4297 views | BackToRussia |
And it's gold and other minerals?
This is not so much about the US wanting them for themselves, but about not wanting the Venezuelan government to have access to those funds in the future because it would give them political autonomy. See Cuba's sugar. [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:12]
| |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:16 - Feb 3 with 4268 views | Guthrum |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:07 - Feb 3 by BackToRussia |
And it's gold and other minerals?
This is not so much about the US wanting them for themselves, but about not wanting the Venezuelan government to have access to those funds in the future because it would give them political autonomy. See Cuba's sugar. [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:12]
|
That's straight geopolitics, a desire to have maximum influence over nearby countries. Not lust for oil, as Maduro was claiming on Wednesday. | |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:21 - Feb 3 with 4253 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:05 - Feb 3 by BackToRussia |
The agenda is that the US has intervened illegally, with military force, countless times in Central and South America over a period of many decades. Either you accept that Venezuela is part of that narrative too, no matter how incompetent or evil you think Chavez or Maduro to be, or you don't.
Do you not see how a military and economic super power dictating terms and removing democratically elected governments on your backdoor over a number of decades may have led to situations like Venezuela? |
Historical precedence isn't a good argument. Each event should be judged on it's merits. By that logic you can say that every political decision ever made was due to some earlier historical context.
How is Venezuela part of the narrative? Give us an example. You clearly accept it is part of the narrative so you must be able to construct a compelling argument.
Are you going to condemn the EU who have recognised the opposition leader?
"Do you not see how a military and economic super power dictating terms and removing democratically elected governments on your backdoor over a number of decades may have led to situations like Venezuela?"
No I don't. Show me how any of those actions (which nobody denies were bad) have led to "situations like Venezuela". I'm not actually sure I understand how historical actions in other countries make a corrupt leader waste all his countries money.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:22 - Feb 3 with 4253 views | BackToRussia |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:16 - Feb 3 by Guthrum |
That's straight geopolitics, a desire to have maximum influence over nearby countries. Not lust for oil, as Maduro was claiming on Wednesday. |
OK, but he's speaking to a whole population, he has to explain it in some sort of understandable terms. Also it's not straight geopolitics if they're breaking international law. I mean I know that law is an ass, but let's at least pretend it means something, no? | |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:23 - Feb 3 with 4243 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:07 - Feb 3 by BackToRussia |
And it's gold and other minerals?
This is not so much about the US wanting them for themselves, but about not wanting the Venezuelan government to have access to those funds in the future because it would give them political autonomy. See Cuba's sugar. [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:12]
|
Evidence?
I think you are putting far too much stock in what the US thinks about Venezuela - why would they care if they have political autonomy?
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:26]
| |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:24 - Feb 3 with 4240 views | HARRY10 |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:32 - Feb 3 by GlasgowBlue |
This thread is a very informative read.
|
got owned ?
are you 12 years old ? |  | | |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:30 - Feb 3 with 4213 views | BackToRussia |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:21 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Historical precedence isn't a good argument. Each event should be judged on it's merits. By that logic you can say that every political decision ever made was due to some earlier historical context.
How is Venezuela part of the narrative? Give us an example. You clearly accept it is part of the narrative so you must be able to construct a compelling argument.
Are you going to condemn the EU who have recognised the opposition leader?
"Do you not see how a military and economic super power dictating terms and removing democratically elected governments on your backdoor over a number of decades may have led to situations like Venezuela?"
No I don't. Show me how any of those actions (which nobody denies were bad) have led to "situations like Venezuela". I'm not actually sure I understand how historical actions in other countries make a corrupt leader waste all his countries money.
SB |
The EU since I last checked was calling for elections and not picking a side. By the way, the only way Venezuela has a constitutional basis for recognising an alternative leader is because Chavez put it in there, but anyway, it's a world away from what the US does which is put itself as an active player in the situation and try to directly control affairs.
If you can't recognise the influence a superpower would have I'm not really sure it's worth going down that road with you. You've basically just refused to accept historical and political context pas tout. If you can't accept how seeing your neighbours invaded by a foreign force or put under an embargo may lead you to form a radical socialist government, and you can't imagine how a small, developing economy would need the support of the local super power to do that, then what's the point? South America and Latin America have been hamstrung and kept under the thumb by the US as a continued policy choice of the US.
Of course this throws up tyrants. If you don't want to accept there is a bigger tyranny at hand here then fine, it does not surprise me. | |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:31 - Feb 3 with 4207 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:24 - Feb 3 by HARRY10 |
got owned ?
are you 12 years old ? |
I think you are mistaking me for Mr Snowdon [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:32]
| |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:32 - Feb 3 with 4204 views | BackToRussia |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:23 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Evidence?
I think you are putting far too much stock in what the US thinks about Venezuela - why would they care if they have political autonomy?
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:26]
|
Because they do not want people to think socialism could ever be successful. So they have made it their avowed mission since the 40s to undermine, invade, etc, any country that may look to be a successful socialist government. | |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:43 - Feb 3 with 4187 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:30 - Feb 3 by BackToRussia |
The EU since I last checked was calling for elections and not picking a side. By the way, the only way Venezuela has a constitutional basis for recognising an alternative leader is because Chavez put it in there, but anyway, it's a world away from what the US does which is put itself as an active player in the situation and try to directly control affairs.
If you can't recognise the influence a superpower would have I'm not really sure it's worth going down that road with you. You've basically just refused to accept historical and political context pas tout. If you can't accept how seeing your neighbours invaded by a foreign force or put under an embargo may lead you to form a radical socialist government, and you can't imagine how a small, developing economy would need the support of the local super power to do that, then what's the point? South America and Latin America have been hamstrung and kept under the thumb by the US as a continued policy choice of the US.
Of course this throws up tyrants. If you don't want to accept there is a bigger tyranny at hand here then fine, it does not surprise me. |
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/03/european-leaders-set-to-recognise-
They are accepting him if Maduro doesn't call elections.
When was the last time the US invaded a country in the region? Most of the people alive in Venezuela wouldn't have seen that so I'm not sure you can state that as a factor in driving the political will in the country. I do accept they might want to elect a socialist government and I don't have any issues with that, you haven't however shown any causation between the US and the poor leadership in Venezuela.
"Of course this throws up tyrants. If you don't want to accept there is a bigger tyranny at hand here then fine, it does not surprise me."
Back to the good old, US bad, blame them for everything trope, it does not surprise me. The US didn't force successive leaders to act the way they did and squander the resources. Why not actually blame the individuals who caused the situation?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:45 - Feb 3 with 4181 views | StokieBlue |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:32 - Feb 3 by BackToRussia |
Because they do not want people to think socialism could ever be successful. So they have made it their avowed mission since the 40s to undermine, invade, etc, any country that may look to be a successful socialist government. |
But Venezuela is surely an excellent case for them to point and say socialism isn't successful. It's been awful for the country.
They have had access to the oil money and they certainly didn't create a successful socialist state with it so it seems strange to say the US would want to prevent them getting money from oil and minerals in case they made a successful socialist state.
It seems like a very ideological thing to say.
For clarity, I'm not saying the US hasn't done bad things in the area historically, just that you can't blame all modern issues on them in my opinion.
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 22:04]
| |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 22:37 - Feb 3 with 4123 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:45 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
But Venezuela is surely an excellent case for them to point and say socialism isn't successful. It's been awful for the country.
They have had access to the oil money and they certainly didn't create a successful socialist state with it so it seems strange to say the US would want to prevent them getting money from oil and minerals in case they made a successful socialist state.
It seems like a very ideological thing to say.
For clarity, I'm not saying the US hasn't done bad things in the area historically, just that you can't blame all modern issues on them in my opinion.
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 22:04]
|
Socialism hasn't been awful for the country. Having an incompetent and corrupt government has. These are two very different things. Let's not fall into the trap of making this a political thing. |  | | |
| Venezuela's oil on 23:01 - Feb 3 with 4092 views | baxterbasics |
Socialist or not, Corbyn still once saw Venezuela as a model government, and the likes of George Galloway still do! 🤦ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ |  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 23:15 - Feb 3 with 4068 views | Bluesquid |
With all that 'someone' said to you about it being harder to extract, lower priced, includes more contaminants and is generally less useful and finishing off with it's not really that attractive, John Bolton - the National Security Advisor of the United States has said the following -
"It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela"
Yes Guthrum, you read that right - "a BIG difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela"
| | | |
| Venezuela's oil on 23:26 - Feb 3 with 4053 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Venezuela's oil on 20:11 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Not just on mainstream media, this board has a number of posters who blame the US for anything they can regardless of the facts of the situation. I pointed it out a few times last week but it won't change.
SB |
Have you read 'Shock Doctrine' yet? |  |
| |
| Venezuela's oil on 23:30 - Feb 3 with 4047 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Venezuela's oil on 21:23 - Feb 3 by StokieBlue |
Evidence?
I think you are putting far too much stock in what the US thinks about Venezuela - why would they care if they have political autonomy?
SB [Post edited 3 Feb 2019 21:26]
|
It's like Cuba never happened! | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
