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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum 11:14 - Feb 12 with 3923 viewsMoriarty

Whereas it is of course entirely a matter for the British people, from the outside looking in, it certainly warrants discussion.

https://www.rte.ie/eile/brainstorm/2019/0208/1029032-heres-the-moral-case-for-a-

fka omuircheartaigh

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:24 - Feb 12 with 3664 viewsMullysplace1

We had a referendum, you dont keep voting until those that lost get what they want. Thats not a democracy. It would cause massive problems for MPs in the future, no one will bother with politics again. Voting would be dismissed, as people would think whats the point if they decide to have another vote because they dont like the outcome. It would be a disaster, it cant be done, and most of parliament know this too. Thats why they really dont want to go down that route. Wether we like what happened with Brexit or not, lm afraid we are stuck with it.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:27 - Feb 12 with 3657 viewsLeagueOne

What if remain loses again? What if remain wins, what will the leave camp do? Demand another vote? Will a UKIP equivalent of the disaffected gain strength and win seats in Westminster?

A better solution for remainers is to all join the Liberal Democrats, stand for election and make the parties central policy returning the U.K to the European Union. Make those arguments with the voters, be honest and say this will mean the U.K. joining the Euro, the dissolution of the British Army into the new European Army, open boarders, make those arguments to the people and if they agree with you, you will win.

It will be much more effective than a football forum if you really want to change, posting on here is pissing into the wind.

It's time to make the best of it.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:29 - Feb 12 with 3644 viewsSouperJim

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:24 - Feb 12 by Mullysplace1

We had a referendum, you dont keep voting until those that lost get what they want. Thats not a democracy. It would cause massive problems for MPs in the future, no one will bother with politics again. Voting would be dismissed, as people would think whats the point if they decide to have another vote because they dont like the outcome. It would be a disaster, it cant be done, and most of parliament know this too. Thats why they really dont want to go down that route. Wether we like what happened with Brexit or not, lm afraid we are stuck with it.


What about keep voting until those that win get what they want?

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1
Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:32 - Feb 12 with 3638 viewsBOjK

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:24 - Feb 12 by Mullysplace1

We had a referendum, you dont keep voting until those that lost get what they want. Thats not a democracy. It would cause massive problems for MPs in the future, no one will bother with politics again. Voting would be dismissed, as people would think whats the point if they decide to have another vote because they dont like the outcome. It would be a disaster, it cant be done, and most of parliament know this too. Thats why they really dont want to go down that route. Wether we like what happened with Brexit or not, lm afraid we are stuck with it.


Why are we stuck with it?

Can't a population change its mind? Ever?
What if it was lied to during the campaign?
What if foreign governments were found to have influenced the results?
What if the leave campaign broke the law?

I think as the result of the negotiations is clearly so out-of-line with what was promised, and as opinion polls have consistently shown a small but steady leave for remain that what is more likely to bring democracy into disrepute is not having a confirmatory plebiscite.

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:36 - Feb 12 with 3620 viewsNo9

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:24 - Feb 12 by Mullysplace1

We had a referendum, you dont keep voting until those that lost get what they want. Thats not a democracy. It would cause massive problems for MPs in the future, no one will bother with politics again. Voting would be dismissed, as people would think whats the point if they decide to have another vote because they dont like the outcome. It would be a disaster, it cant be done, and most of parliament know this too. Thats why they really dont want to go down that route. Wether we like what happened with Brexit or not, lm afraid we are stuck with it.


Leaving is going to cause a great number of problems anyway.

There are legal & constitutional issues not yet in the public domain + the potential break-up of the Union

A young generation is going to be very, very pi$$ed off how will they react - don't forget they are the future.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:48 - Feb 12 with 3595 viewsWD19

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:36 - Feb 12 by No9

Leaving is going to cause a great number of problems anyway.

There are legal & constitutional issues not yet in the public domain + the potential break-up of the Union

A young generation is going to be very, very pi$$ed off how will they react - don't forget they are the future.


They will do what modern generations do, blame someone else and gripe a lot....albeit with at least some justification this time.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:10 - Feb 12 with 3571 viewsitfc_bucks

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:27 - Feb 12 by LeagueOne

What if remain loses again? What if remain wins, what will the leave camp do? Demand another vote? Will a UKIP equivalent of the disaffected gain strength and win seats in Westminster?

A better solution for remainers is to all join the Liberal Democrats, stand for election and make the parties central policy returning the U.K to the European Union. Make those arguments with the voters, be honest and say this will mean the U.K. joining the Euro, the dissolution of the British Army into the new European Army, open boarders, make those arguments to the people and if they agree with you, you will win.

It will be much more effective than a football forum if you really want to change, posting on here is pissing into the wind.


Wow.

There's so many bits in there that have been put forward by the leave side as irrefutable fact, which would inevitably happen if we remained in. I recognise that's not what you're saying here, but I submit its inferred. SO, to counter it with a tiny bit of reality, I offer you this.

There is no plan for an EU army, and were such a plan to be put forward, it would require unanimity, not a QMV vote.

Rejoining the EU would likely see us have to adopt the Euro. Remaining would not.

Re-joining may require us to join Schengen, but there really is no rational reason as to why this would be the case. Obviously, remaining in would certainly not.

And while we're at it, there is already EU law that would allow us to charge back healthcare to countries of origin...but we don't. There is already case law which allows us to remove non-UK nationals after three months of unemployment...but we don't.

Maybe the Brits need to take a long hard look at themselves and their government and ask "who is really to blame here"?
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:13 - Feb 12 with 3564 viewschicoazul

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:10 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

Wow.

There's so many bits in there that have been put forward by the leave side as irrefutable fact, which would inevitably happen if we remained in. I recognise that's not what you're saying here, but I submit its inferred. SO, to counter it with a tiny bit of reality, I offer you this.

There is no plan for an EU army, and were such a plan to be put forward, it would require unanimity, not a QMV vote.

Rejoining the EU would likely see us have to adopt the Euro. Remaining would not.

Re-joining may require us to join Schengen, but there really is no rational reason as to why this would be the case. Obviously, remaining in would certainly not.

And while we're at it, there is already EU law that would allow us to charge back healthcare to countries of origin...but we don't. There is already case law which allows us to remove non-UK nationals after three months of unemployment...but we don't.

Maybe the Brits need to take a long hard look at themselves and their government and ask "who is really to blame here"?


No plan for an EU Army?

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:20 - Feb 12 with 3544 viewsLeaky

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:10 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

Wow.

There's so many bits in there that have been put forward by the leave side as irrefutable fact, which would inevitably happen if we remained in. I recognise that's not what you're saying here, but I submit its inferred. SO, to counter it with a tiny bit of reality, I offer you this.

There is no plan for an EU army, and were such a plan to be put forward, it would require unanimity, not a QMV vote.

Rejoining the EU would likely see us have to adopt the Euro. Remaining would not.

Re-joining may require us to join Schengen, but there really is no rational reason as to why this would be the case. Obviously, remaining in would certainly not.

And while we're at it, there is already EU law that would allow us to charge back healthcare to countries of origin...but we don't. There is already case law which allows us to remove non-UK nationals after three months of unemployment...but we don't.

Maybe the Brits need to take a long hard look at themselves and their government and ask "who is really to blame here"?


Isn't it easier just to do what we voted for and leave
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:20 - Feb 12 with 3544 viewsitfc_bucks

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:13 - Feb 12 by chicoazul

No plan for an EU Army?

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”


What you've got there is a single EU politician, albeit a senior one, talking in fairly broad abstract terms about what it would entail and the consequences.

There's really no groundswell of support amongst the nation states for it and, as I've pointed out above, it would be easily veto'd by any single state.

Next up on Euromyths, bendy bananas...
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:25 - Feb 12 with 3528 viewschicoazul

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:20 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

What you've got there is a single EU politician, albeit a senior one, talking in fairly broad abstract terms about what it would entail and the consequences.

There's really no groundswell of support amongst the nation states for it and, as I've pointed out above, it would be easily veto'd by any single state.

Next up on Euromyths, bendy bananas...


This is a perfect example of the problem Remain have, believing people in this fight are at all invested in subtleties & nuance and in any case, disregarding what a "senior" EU politician says.

In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
Poll: With Evans taking 65% in Huddersfield, is the Banter Era over?

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:27 - Feb 12 with 3519 viewsitfc_bucks

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:20 - Feb 12 by Leaky

Isn't it easier just to do what we voted for and leave


No, it's really not.

Leave was a spectrum of outcomes, from the softest of soft-Brexit right through to dystopian nightmare.

Remain was the only solution where we actually had all the facts and the outcome would be known.

Now we know much more about May's outcome, and indeed the consequences of both her deal and No-Deal, I really do fail to see why there can't be a further referendum asking the public to choose their preferred outcome, even employing the STV method, before the Quitlings wade in on this one being unfair as you'd split the Leave vote (which in itself was inherently split anyway, but lets skip on that...).
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:28 - Feb 12 with 3518 viewsPinewoodblue

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:32 - Feb 12 by BOjK

Why are we stuck with it?

Can't a population change its mind? Ever?
What if it was lied to during the campaign?
What if foreign governments were found to have influenced the results?
What if the leave campaign broke the law?

I think as the result of the negotiations is clearly so out-of-line with what was promised, and as opinion polls have consistently shown a small but steady leave for remain that what is more likely to bring democracy into disrepute is not having a confirmatory plebiscite.


Wanting second referendum is a bit like a goal keeper, failing to save a penalty, asking for it to be taken again as he dived the wrong way.

Who is to say. a second referendum will have different out outcome, anymore than a retaken penalty

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:31 - Feb 12 with 3508 viewsChampionship

I watched Inside Europe last night. I'm not sure it made the EU come across very well. Although with that said, it did make it obvious that being in the club is much better than what we'll face being outside it.

As for a second referendum, there's nothing wrong with asking if the people are sure of their decision. Especially when many polls show support for remaining. We do not need to force through a result which is already out of date. We can have another referendum to make sure the people still want to leave. It seems the obvious way out. May's deal versus remain.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:32 - Feb 12 with 3505 viewsitfc_bucks

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:28 - Feb 12 by Pinewoodblue

Wanting second referendum is a bit like a goal keeper, failing to save a penalty, asking for it to be taken again as he dived the wrong way.

Who is to say. a second referendum will have different out outcome, anymore than a retaken penalty


Hugely flawed metaphor.

Effectively the landscape has changed dramatically and denying that is rather akin to King Canute ordering the tide to hold back - ie absolutely mental.

So much has changed since the vote, ignoring it and pushing ahead would be crazy.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:42 - Feb 12 with 3479 viewsLeagueOne

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:10 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

Wow.

There's so many bits in there that have been put forward by the leave side as irrefutable fact, which would inevitably happen if we remained in. I recognise that's not what you're saying here, but I submit its inferred. SO, to counter it with a tiny bit of reality, I offer you this.

There is no plan for an EU army, and were such a plan to be put forward, it would require unanimity, not a QMV vote.

Rejoining the EU would likely see us have to adopt the Euro. Remaining would not.

Re-joining may require us to join Schengen, but there really is no rational reason as to why this would be the case. Obviously, remaining in would certainly not.

And while we're at it, there is already EU law that would allow us to charge back healthcare to countries of origin...but we don't. There is already case law which allows us to remove non-UK nationals after three months of unemployment...but we don't.

Maybe the Brits need to take a long hard look at themselves and their government and ask "who is really to blame here"?


If you read the EU's direction none of this is stuff they haven't already stated as fact, not Leave propaganda so I would suggest your first flaw is not understanding what you are arguing for.

All member states will join the Euro
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/891253/European-Union-Member-States-Eurozone-E
The European Army is being called for by both France and Germany
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-fr
The European Union has open borders between all member states
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
the EU announced that they would adopt the UN's proposals to criminalise anti-open border and anti-immigration statements as law


If you do not support these things, i'd suggest you stop arguing for remain?

As I said, why don't you stop posting on a football forum and actually go out there and campaign for the European Union? The reason Farage for example, won, is because he made it his mission to win, he didn't sit there day and night complaining on the internet, he got off his arse, whether you're like him or not, and pressured the Government into doing what he wanted and then won.

You could do the same?

It's time to make the best of it.
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:45 - Feb 12 with 3469 viewsBlueRaider

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:27 - Feb 12 by LeagueOne

What if remain loses again? What if remain wins, what will the leave camp do? Demand another vote? Will a UKIP equivalent of the disaffected gain strength and win seats in Westminster?

A better solution for remainers is to all join the Liberal Democrats, stand for election and make the parties central policy returning the U.K to the European Union. Make those arguments with the voters, be honest and say this will mean the U.K. joining the Euro, the dissolution of the British Army into the new European Army, open boarders, make those arguments to the people and if they agree with you, you will win.

It will be much more effective than a football forum if you really want to change, posting on here is pissing into the wind.


I agree, we should try and make Brexit work, and then there can be a campaign to re-join which would gather support if it was seen as a better way forward. Trying to stop Brexit as some have done perpetuates the divisions

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:45 - Feb 12 with 3467 viewsPinewoodblue

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:32 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

Hugely flawed metaphor.

Effectively the landscape has changed dramatically and denying that is rather akin to King Canute ordering the tide to hold back - ie absolutely mental.

So much has changed since the vote, ignoring it and pushing ahead would be crazy.


Presumably you would also be in favour of another vote if there was a hung parliament after a general election to give those who didn't got a chance to have their say.

If we must have referendums they should on a constituency basis mandating MP's on how they should vote.

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:49 - Feb 12 with 3459 viewsjaykay

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:20 - Feb 12 by Leaky

Isn't it easier just to do what we voted for and leave


trouble is all the leavers are going to have to return all their continental quilts to europe.
unless you have good old fashion blankets on your bed.
us remainers will be able to keep ours

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 13:34 - Feb 12 with 3414 viewsMalcolmBlue

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 11:24 - Feb 12 by Mullysplace1

We had a referendum, you dont keep voting until those that lost get what they want. Thats not a democracy. It would cause massive problems for MPs in the future, no one will bother with politics again. Voting would be dismissed, as people would think whats the point if they decide to have another vote because they dont like the outcome. It would be a disaster, it cant be done, and most of parliament know this too. Thats why they really dont want to go down that route. Wether we like what happened with Brexit or not, lm afraid we are stuck with it.


The thing that a lot of people are missing is that this won't be the only Brexit related referendum the UK will have, if a no deal brexit occurs it's highly likely that Northern Ireland and Ireland will hold a referendum on the unification of Ireland and Scotland will also push for an independence referendum. Having a no deal brexit is easy but it comes at a price. Unfortunately I have a feeling that potential disintegration of the United Kingdom (as we know it) will only be the tip of the iceberg.

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 13:47 - Feb 12 with 3399 viewsSwansea_Blue

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:13 - Feb 12 by chicoazul

No plan for an EU Army?

“You would not create a European army to use it immediately,” Juncker told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper in Germany in an interview published on Sunday.

“But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.”


Juncker's always been a federalist and the idea is nothing new. We could have vetoed the idea I believe as a member of the EU. It might be too simplistic to say that the likelihood of a genuine EU army is now higher that (when/if) we leave, bt that's the impression I get. So maybe it will happen, but I'd say it was unlikely to have had we not gone down this Brexit route. We will see increased expenditure on the military in the EU though, as Trump is very clear that he doesn't want to prop up NATO. We'll also see increased cost sharing on large military projects - that's inevitable and no doubt will get jumped on by the anti-EU brigade as evidence for some form of Fourth Reich.

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 13:59 - Feb 12 with 3386 viewsNo9

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:25 - Feb 12 by chicoazul

This is a perfect example of the problem Remain have, believing people in this fight are at all invested in subtleties & nuance and in any case, disregarding what a "senior" EU politician says.


It is a problem for the country isn't it? Not just remain.
Whatever happens the country will leave the EU unpreparred with the EU on a much better footing.

The EU is already a member of the WTO - the UK isn't, otjer then by it membership of the EU
When the other WTO members agree to the UK joining is still an unknown

The EU has other trading arrangements round the world that will stay in place, the UK won't have

The government can't even tell the truth about ferries would you expect them to come forth with truths about anything else?

Meanwhile the infighting in the tory party continues
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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 14:05 - Feb 12 with 3381 viewsXYZ

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:28 - Feb 12 by Pinewoodblue

Wanting second referendum is a bit like a goal keeper, failing to save a penalty, asking for it to be taken again as he dived the wrong way.

Who is to say. a second referendum will have different out outcome, anymore than a retaken penalty


The penalty was cancelled by VAR and the diving git was sent off ...
1
Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 14:05 - Feb 12 with 3381 viewsMalcolmBlue

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:10 - Feb 12 by itfc_bucks

Wow.

There's so many bits in there that have been put forward by the leave side as irrefutable fact, which would inevitably happen if we remained in. I recognise that's not what you're saying here, but I submit its inferred. SO, to counter it with a tiny bit of reality, I offer you this.

There is no plan for an EU army, and were such a plan to be put forward, it would require unanimity, not a QMV vote.

Rejoining the EU would likely see us have to adopt the Euro. Remaining would not.

Re-joining may require us to join Schengen, but there really is no rational reason as to why this would be the case. Obviously, remaining in would certainly not.

And while we're at it, there is already EU law that would allow us to charge back healthcare to countries of origin...but we don't. There is already case law which allows us to remove non-UK nationals after three months of unemployment...but we don't.

Maybe the Brits need to take a long hard look at themselves and their government and ask "who is really to blame here"?


Spot on mate

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Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 14:06 - Feb 12 with 3374 viewsitfc_bucks

Brexit, the moral case for a second referendum on 12:42 - Feb 12 by LeagueOne

If you read the EU's direction none of this is stuff they haven't already stated as fact, not Leave propaganda so I would suggest your first flaw is not understanding what you are arguing for.

All member states will join the Euro
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/891253/European-Union-Member-States-Eurozone-E
The European Army is being called for by both France and Germany
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-fr
The European Union has open borders between all member states
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement
the EU announced that they would adopt the UN's proposals to criminalise anti-open border and anti-immigration statements as law


If you do not support these things, i'd suggest you stop arguing for remain?

As I said, why don't you stop posting on a football forum and actually go out there and campaign for the European Union? The reason Farage for example, won, is because he made it his mission to win, he didn't sit there day and night complaining on the internet, he got off his arse, whether you're like him or not, and pressured the Government into doing what he wanted and then won.

You could do the same?


Righto, I'll wade on through this latest bout of garbage...

1. They really wont. Indeed, your own article makes it clear that they wont. Find a primary source where it says that all member states must join the Euro. Spoiler alert, you wont be able to.

2. I reiterate, this would require unanimity ie any member state could unilaterally veto it.

3. You realise that we have an indefinite opt-out to the Schengen agreement, don't you?

4. I haven't forced you to reply, don't feel under any obligation to continue...
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