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7 becomes 8 22:20 - Feb 19 with 18459 viewsBluefish

How many do they need before they launch the party?

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7 becomes 8 on 10:08 - Feb 20 with 2332 viewsitfcjoe

7 becomes 8 on 09:53 - Feb 20 by ZedRodgers

People are desperate for Labour's programme to be put in place.

Their lives depend on it. You are either disconnected from the misery of austerity or completely blind to it if you think this is all about champagne socialists wanting to be right.

Show some respect.


If the leadership of the party were that desperate they would be working with people to get it done, not against everyone.

New Labour would be doing more for austerity than Corbyn will achieve, because they might actually do SOMETHING

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7 becomes 8 on 10:08 - Feb 20 with 2332 viewspickles110564

7 becomes 8 on 10:04 - Feb 20 by Steve_M

Perhaps Labour should be trying to appeal to more voters then. And not supporting the Tory policy on the biggest issue of the day.


Even I'm confused on this, how is Labour supporting the Tory's biggest issue of the day?
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7 becomes 8 on 10:08 - Feb 20 with 2316 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:03 - Feb 20 by Steve_M

It's not just that post from you it's been several where you've downplayed stuff. I will apologise for saying that you've ignored all the anti-semitism

I'm not going top pay much attention to a short video, pushed out without context to make a political point though.


Thanks. And yes, I have downplayed stuff where the evidence doesn't suggest anything like what the accuser is saying.

I'm frankly gobsmacked by people openly ducking watching that video though. If you watched that then you could see clear evidence of what I'm talking about and be a lot less likely to misjudge what I'm actually saying.

Pronouns: He/Him

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7 becomes 8 on 10:09 - Feb 20 with 2292 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

7 becomes 8 on 10:00 - Feb 20 by lowhouseblue

if you cared about austerity you would care about a labour government actually being elected. you would be furious about the ineptitude and extremism that currently makes that impossible. the failure of leadership, the tolerance of anti-semitism, the extremism in foreign policy amongst the leadership stand in the way of ever doing anything about austerity. you would be incensed by this political failure - a failure which will go on propping up the tories. but you're not - so I think that being anti -austerity is actually just a political pose. you clearly don't at any real level care about it.


Irony meter.......10

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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7 becomes 8 on 10:11 - Feb 20 with 2317 viewspickles110564

7 becomes 8 on 10:05 - Feb 20 by Guthrum

One of my favourite snacks - tho has to be cheese and onion (for the contrast of flavours).


I had a stinky blue cheese and chopped up red onion the other day and was surprised how much i liked it, was always a cheddar and onion sandwich fan before that.
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7 becomes 8 on 10:13 - Feb 20 with 2289 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:08 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe

If the leadership of the party were that desperate they would be working with people to get it done, not against everyone.

New Labour would be doing more for austerity than Corbyn will achieve, because they might actually do SOMETHING


But New Labour is over. And while better than Tory austerity it's been a part of where we've arrived at now.

What about the in-fighting in Labour for the past 4 years? What if the Independent Group and others had actually supported Corbyn and their party when they had a chance to do something about austerity at the last election? Now they've b@ggered off and have even less chance.

Pronouns: He/Him

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7 becomes 8 on 10:19 - Feb 20 with 2242 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

7 becomes 8 on 10:03 - Feb 20 by Steve_M

It's not just that post from you it's been several where you've downplayed stuff. I will apologise for saying that you've ignored all the anti-semitism

I'm not going top pay much attention to a short video, pushed out without context to make a political point though.


It's a 2 part documentary......which is why I haven't watched it yet.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:20 - Feb 20 with 2234 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

7 becomes 8 on 10:13 - Feb 20 by Darth_Koont

But New Labour is over. And while better than Tory austerity it's been a part of where we've arrived at now.

What about the in-fighting in Labour for the past 4 years? What if the Independent Group and others had actually supported Corbyn and their party when they had a chance to do something about austerity at the last election? Now they've b@ggered off and have even less chance.


Labour was only a broad church when the right(!) people were reading the sermon.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:21 - Feb 20 with 2258 viewsitfcjoe

7 becomes 8 on 10:13 - Feb 20 by Darth_Koont

But New Labour is over. And while better than Tory austerity it's been a part of where we've arrived at now.

What about the in-fighting in Labour for the past 4 years? What if the Independent Group and others had actually supported Corbyn and their party when they had a chance to do something about austerity at the last election? Now they've b@ggered off and have even less chance.


Well then we need a Newer Labour, because what we have now isn't working.

The in-fighting in Labour in the last 4 years is because enough people could see this is where we'd end up - with a totally useless Labour party, where the leaders are not interested in a 'broad church' of opinions but only in people who agree with them. And if they don't agree they are Tories.

The Hard Left would rather be right in their own minds, than actually elected by compromising and improving the lives of millions.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:21 - Feb 20 with 2245 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:05 - Feb 20 by StokieBlue

What seems clear?

Just because I don't agree with you most of the time doesn't mean I am a Tory. I don't spend my days posting Tory propaganda on here.

This is the issue. If you disagree with Labour then instantly you are a Tory and it's all smears. That's not the case, it's perfectly possible to disagree with them whilst also not agreeing with the Tories.

You are just as selective as anyone else, you just pretend you're not. You also seem to love interjecting on my posts with personal swipes. The kinder type of politics indeed.

SB


And I'm not a Labour party member either. Or a member of any other party for that matter.

You've just done in reverse what your post is accusing me of doing.

Now, please address the video.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:29 - Feb 20 with 2211 viewssparks

7 becomes 8 on 10:21 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe

Well then we need a Newer Labour, because what we have now isn't working.

The in-fighting in Labour in the last 4 years is because enough people could see this is where we'd end up - with a totally useless Labour party, where the leaders are not interested in a 'broad church' of opinions but only in people who agree with them. And if they don't agree they are Tories.

The Hard Left would rather be right in their own minds, than actually elected by compromising and improving the lives of millions.


Domgatism is the key here. They are wed to ideals which seem not to work int he real world, and will not consider pragmatism. Indeed they are actively disdainful of pragmatism.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:30 - Feb 20 with 2201 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:21 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe

Well then we need a Newer Labour, because what we have now isn't working.

The in-fighting in Labour in the last 4 years is because enough people could see this is where we'd end up - with a totally useless Labour party, where the leaders are not interested in a 'broad church' of opinions but only in people who agree with them. And if they don't agree they are Tories.

The Hard Left would rather be right in their own minds, than actually elected by compromising and improving the lives of millions.


You haven't seen the concerted campaign against Corbyn from within the party and from outside over the past few years? It's awful stuff for the most part.

That's why we are where we are. Are Corbyn's manifesto policies radical? No - and only in the UK or US could they be characterized as Hard Left. Is he more incompetent than any other leading politician? Not on the evidence of the past couple of years.

Don't get me wrong, Corbyn is a pretty poor politician. But is Labour under Corbyn worse than the opposition or what went before? I don't see it.

Pronouns: He/Him

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7 becomes 8 on 10:32 - Feb 20 with 2192 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:29 - Feb 20 by sparks

Domgatism is the key here. They are wed to ideals which seem not to work int he real world, and will not consider pragmatism. Indeed they are actively disdainful of pragmatism.


Which dogmatic, non-pragmatic ideals are we talking about? Here, it would be helpful to refer to real rather than imaginary policy proposals.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:43 - Feb 20 with 2158 viewsZedRodgers

7 becomes 8 on 10:08 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe

If the leadership of the party were that desperate they would be working with people to get it done, not against everyone.

New Labour would be doing more for austerity than Corbyn will achieve, because they might actually do SOMETHING


I'll ask this again, because nobody ever seems to be able to answer it.

What exactly should they be doing more or less of? Policy-wise. I acknowledge that people on the left calling centrists red Tories or whatever is unhelpful and divisive. But what should the party be doing differently?

Corbyn put a number of 'Blairite' MPs in his Shadow Cabinet. Most of them tried to stage a coup, had a tantrum because they failed and then resigned.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:47]

No, not at the moment

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7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 with 2142 viewssparks

7 becomes 8 on 10:43 - Feb 20 by ZedRodgers

I'll ask this again, because nobody ever seems to be able to answer it.

What exactly should they be doing more or less of? Policy-wise. I acknowledge that people on the left calling centrists red Tories or whatever is unhelpful and divisive. But what should the party be doing differently?

Corbyn put a number of 'Blairite' MPs in his Shadow Cabinet. Most of them tried to stage a coup, had a tantrum because they failed and then resigned.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:47]


Did he not remove people for daring to suggest a 2nd referendum- in conflict with his plainly pro brexit underlying views?

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7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 with 2142 viewspickles110564

7 becomes 8 on 10:43 - Feb 20 by ZedRodgers

I'll ask this again, because nobody ever seems to be able to answer it.

What exactly should they be doing more or less of? Policy-wise. I acknowledge that people on the left calling centrists red Tories or whatever is unhelpful and divisive. But what should the party be doing differently?

Corbyn put a number of 'Blairite' MPs in his Shadow Cabinet. Most of them tried to stage a coup, had a tantrum because they failed and then resigned.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2019 10:47]


Stop scaring voters that remember what it was like when our key utilities were nationalised.
Power cuts, train drivers on strike etc.
I agree in private hands they are not perfect but need a happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment.
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7 becomes 8 on 10:54 - Feb 20 with 2134 viewssparks

7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 by pickles110564

Stop scaring voters that remember what it was like when our key utilities were nationalised.
Power cuts, train drivers on strike etc.
I agree in private hands they are not perfect but need a happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment.


I do wonder how many of the people who jump up and down in favour of some of this nationalisation stuff are actually old enough to remember travel on British Rail...

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7 becomes 8 on 10:55 - Feb 20 with 2131 viewsZedRodgers

7 becomes 8 on 10:21 - Feb 20 by itfcjoe

Well then we need a Newer Labour, because what we have now isn't working.

The in-fighting in Labour in the last 4 years is because enough people could see this is where we'd end up - with a totally useless Labour party, where the leaders are not interested in a 'broad church' of opinions but only in people who agree with them. And if they don't agree they are Tories.

The Hard Left would rather be right in their own minds, than actually elected by compromising and improving the lives of millions.


The 2017 manifesto made compromises that I personally didn't agree with (Trident etc.). My opinion was far from thinking I'd rather be right in my own mind than seeing this programme be put in place. I'd recommend revisiting your opinion of the 'hard left' and figuring out why you think the party membership are on self-righteous quest to hate everyone and everything apart from them. It's really not like that.

Please explain why you think we are now faced with a totally useless Labour party? Statistically and historically, the numbers since 2015 suggest otherwise and the defeats of the government in HoC confirm it.

No, not at the moment

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7 becomes 8 on 10:57 - Feb 20 with 2127 viewsBluefish

7 becomes 8 on 10:54 - Feb 20 by sparks

I do wonder how many of the people who jump up and down in favour of some of this nationalisation stuff are actually old enough to remember travel on British Rail...


Nationalisation of transport and power and wealth distribution gains control of the people. It is scary. I would love to see reform in the rail industry but Corbyn seems to want to turn us into China and anyone that disagrees will be silenced and ostracized

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7 becomes 8 on 10:58 - Feb 20 with 2121 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 by pickles110564

Stop scaring voters that remember what it was like when our key utilities were nationalised.
Power cuts, train drivers on strike etc.
I agree in private hands they are not perfect but need a happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment.


But how do you reach a "happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment"?

Companies operating in and around our supposedly public services and infrastructure have consistently avoided doing this. And the free-market ideologues in government who are still stuck in the previous century have consistently failed to push for it or penalise companies who duck responsibility. I agree nationalisation across the board isn't ideal and creates its own problems but over the past few decades we've been led by people who believe that private is best even when it isn't.

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7 becomes 8 on 10:59 - Feb 20 with 2117 viewsDarth_Koont

7 becomes 8 on 10:57 - Feb 20 by Bluefish

Nationalisation of transport and power and wealth distribution gains control of the people. It is scary. I would love to see reform in the rail industry but Corbyn seems to want to turn us into China and anyone that disagrees will be silenced and ostracized


"Nationalisation of transport and power and wealth distribution" Hehe. That's an odd and unnecessary conflation surely?

Pronouns: He/Him

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7 becomes 8 on 11:00 - Feb 20 with 2118 viewsZedRodgers

7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 by pickles110564

Stop scaring voters that remember what it was like when our key utilities were nationalised.
Power cuts, train drivers on strike etc.
I agree in private hands they are not perfect but need a happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment.


Do we not have power cuts or rail strikes anymore?

Profits should be reinvested into the utility/service. This policy is proved to be supported by a majority time and time again.



So please let me know what's next on your list of what Labour should be doing to appeal to people beyond the 'hard left'?

No, not at the moment

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7 becomes 8 on 11:01 - Feb 20 with 2106 viewsfooters

7 becomes 8 on 10:54 - Feb 20 by sparks

I do wonder how many of the people who jump up and down in favour of some of this nationalisation stuff are actually old enough to remember travel on British Rail...


Or had the pleasure of riding on Deutsche Bahn. It just don't work I tells ya!

Oh, and the Tube seemed perfectly fine when I got into work this morning. Strikers are probably having a day off.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2019 11:02]

footers QC - Prosecution Barrister, Hasketon Law Chambers
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7 becomes 8 on 11:03 - Feb 20 with 2097 viewsgiant_stow

7 becomes 8 on 10:49 - Feb 20 by pickles110564

Stop scaring voters that remember what it was like when our key utilities were nationalised.
Power cuts, train drivers on strike etc.
I agree in private hands they are not perfect but need a happy medium where money is reinvested and the shareholders still get a fair dividend for their investment.


point of order: tube drivers are a special particularly ugly gangster grouping who've made their profession extorting the public purse. they shouldn't come into a chat about normal people and public/private ownership.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2019 11:04]

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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7 becomes 8 on 11:05 - Feb 20 with 2086 viewssparks

7 becomes 8 on 11:00 - Feb 20 by ZedRodgers

Do we not have power cuts or rail strikes anymore?

Profits should be reinvested into the utility/service. This policy is proved to be supported by a majority time and time again.



So please let me know what's next on your list of what Labour should be doing to appeal to people beyond the 'hard left'?


Argument ad populum is a clear logical fallacy...

The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it. (Sir Terry Pratchett)
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