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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:01 - Feb 23 by Swansea_Blue
"We do send the EU the equivalent of £350m a week " - NO WE DON'T.
and
"it's perfectly acceptable to propose that we spend the entire amount on the NHS" - NO IT ISN'T. THERE ISN'T (AND WON'T BE) AN "ENTIRE AMOUNT" BECAUSE IT'S COSTING US MORE TO LEAVE.
Is that clear enough? How hard can this be?
I'm talking about the theory. I completely understand your points. I'm just saying his lawyers will simply be able to argue it like I did. Which bit of the theory do you disagree with?
I don't think you understood my post.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:26 - Feb 23 with 2230 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:02 - Feb 23 by Championship
It was pointed out repeatedly during the campaign. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention knew it was the gross figure.
We should be looking to the future, not looking back and trying to change the facts of what actually happened. It was pointed out in every single debate that it was the gross figure.
I think remain should drop demands for a second referendum and instead push for an extension to article 50. It would be a key battle victory in the wider war. A referendum apparently takes 22 weeks to organise. Why not push for a six month extension? It's more reasonable. No MPs could be blamed for doing so even by the majority of leavers. There are many remain MPs in leave constituencies. This is the far more reasonable request and once they've given way on one thing and suddenly a referendum looks much more realistic we can put the pressure on again.
I think it's a bigger issue that just this case though. So many of our recent election/referendum campaigns have been dominated by big lies - AV costing £250m, Scotland not being able to use the £, etc etc.
And even if they are comprehensively and publicly disproved, the lies still stick in the heads of many.
It's depressing that we live in a society where people like Matthew Elliott (the man behind the AV and Vote Leave lies) are given carte blanche to damage public debate so much.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:30 - Feb 23 with 2216 views
* it wont stop "lying" in politics. * its unlikely to stop brexit * its unlikely to result in boris johnson going to prison * its unlikely to result in wild claims being posted elsewhere in the future.
seems like its a load of lawyers making a pile of cash tbh.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:30 - Feb 23 by MJallday
im not sure what they hope to achieve with this
* it wont stop "lying" in politics. * its unlikely to stop brexit * its unlikely to result in boris johnson going to prison * its unlikely to result in wild claims being posted elsewhere in the future.
seems like its a load of lawyers making a pile of cash tbh.
Publicity stunt. I'll be amazed if it isn't immediately thrown out.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:40 - Feb 23 with 2180 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:13 - Feb 23 by Championship
I'm talking about the theory. I completely understand your points. I'm just saying his lawyers will simply be able to argue it like I did. Which bit of the theory do you disagree with?
I don't think you understood my post.
He’s on very dodgy ground with the figure. He’s already been pulled up on that by the ONS because it’s deliberately misleading/a lie.
The NHS bit is probably ok. ‘Let’s spend it in the NHS’ is just an aspiration.
They were in no position to make any promises and there won’t be a dividend. Yet people believed it - that’s the frustrating thing for me. How the judge will see this all as a whole, I’ve no idea.
We’re peeing in the wind with this though - there needs to be a proper Mueller style investigation into external influence, dark money, the role of the media, etc.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:40 - Feb 23 by Swansea_Blue
He’s on very dodgy ground with the figure. He’s already been pulled up on that by the ONS because it’s deliberately misleading/a lie.
The NHS bit is probably ok. ‘Let’s spend it in the NHS’ is just an aspiration.
They were in no position to make any promises and there won’t be a dividend. Yet people believed it - that’s the frustrating thing for me. How the judge will see this all as a whole, I’ve no idea.
We’re peeing in the wind with this though - there needs to be a proper Mueller style investigation into external influence, dark money, the role of the media, etc.
I agree with the last paragraph.
I'm just saying I think they will argue the £350m is factually accurate and probably get away with it. I completely agree that is is misleading and we get rebates etc but the number is still accurate. It was wilfully misused, no doubt, but factually I just can't see this going anywhere. The judge's personal views shouldn't play a part. I doubt Boris is too worried by these proceedings.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:21 - Feb 23 with 2137 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 11:48 - Feb 23 by Championship
I'm no legal expert so this might not be accurate but I would think this will end up being a publicity stunt for remain and little more.
We do send the EU the equivalent of £350m a week. We get a rebate but it's perfectly acceptable to propose that we spend the entire amount on the NHS rather than where the rebate currently goes. I doubt he's on shaky legal ground.
I wish remain weren't so easily impressed by meaningless stunts. I'm sure we could do much better, and achieve much more, if the time and investment which has gone into this was redirected in a manner which might actually help the cause.
Did you read thearticle and what the prosecution is about? It has nothing to do with remain but a lot about people in highplaces telling lies Mr Johnson is a proven liar tim and again. I doubt the lawyers would have allowed it to get this far if there was no substance to the allegation
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:23 - Feb 23 with 2137 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:00 - Feb 23 by Lord_Lucan
Power Corruption and Lies
Nice to see you this morning No9
After you left I remembered this.
Balance is the way forward.
The problem with that LL is Andrew neil has not declared his interest which is to have the UK leave the EU at any cost - that is what his employers want and it is what the publications he is boss of publish.
Back to the OP. I can think of bigger whoppa's told by politicians which have gone unpunished......
The Brexit bus was more of a hypothesis than a promise. Well that's how I read it. Anyone who seriously thought that the statement was a policy needs a lie down.
Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:21 - Feb 23 by No9
Did you read thearticle and what the prosecution is about? It has nothing to do with remain but a lot about people in highplaces telling lies Mr Johnson is a proven liar tim and again. I doubt the lawyers would have allowed it to get this far if there was no substance to the allegation
I did. I believe they can successfully argue that they weren't lies.
To be frank, I don't mind at all if Boris gets his comeuppance. If it entirely rules him out of ever being PM then happy days.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:31 - Feb 23 with 2126 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:24 - Feb 23 by hampstead_blue
Back to the OP. I can think of bigger whoppa's told by politicians which have gone unpunished......
The Brexit bus was more of a hypothesis than a promise. Well that's how I read it. Anyone who seriously thought that the statement was a policy needs a lie down.
I know several people who voted Leave because of that promise. My In-Laws for a start.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:32 - Feb 23 with 2123 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:32 - Feb 23 by No9
The fact the lawyers have got it into court suggest there is a case to answer unless you beleive lawyers are very frivolous?
Lawyers take lots of cases to court which are thrown out. Lets wait and see what happens here. I predict it will get thrown out or the defence will easily win.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:35 - Feb 23 with 2120 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:23 - Feb 23 by No9
The problem with that LL is Andrew neil has not declared his interest which is to have the UK leave the EU at any cost - that is what his employers want and it is what the publications he is boss of publish.
Duplicitous is not strong enough
Ok No9
Thing is...............we often meet for a chit chat so you will well no that I am a very simple man, so can you in very short words explain to me what Andrew Neils personal opinion has anything to do with the facts that were broadcast?
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:34 - Feb 23 by Championship
Lawyers take lots of cases to court which are thrown out. Lets wait and see what happens here. I predict it will get thrown out or the defence will easily win.
On what basis do you think it will be chucked out &, if the case to chuck it out was that obvious don't you think the lawyers would have seen that and said there was not case to pursue?
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:48 - Feb 23 with 2102 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:36 - Feb 23 by No9
On what basis do you think it will be chucked out &, if the case to chuck it out was that obvious don't you think the lawyers would have seen that and said there was not case to pursue?
I've already said several times in this thread.
They will do whatever they are paid to do. It's likely a publicity stunt. Remember we live in an age where Danny Dyer is a 'legend' for calling David Cameron a twt. Imagine how much love this guy is getting. People probably donate to the funding just to try and stick it to Boris. Put aside your extreme anti Tory bias and look at the facts. The £350m is a fact as the gross EU contribution. It's easy for them to argue that the NHS was just a suggestion and we would be under no obligation to give the same rebates the EU do.
Wait and see, it will go nowhere.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:50 - Feb 23 with 2098 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:36 - Feb 23 by No9
On what basis do you think it will be chucked out &, if the case to chuck it out was that obvious don't you think the lawyers would have seen that and said there was not case to pursue?
They may have done. We dont know what advice has been received. They might have advised that the prospects are very limited- but a client can still instruct them to proceed, so long as they are not misleading the court, or knowingly bringing a case which is hopeless.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:48 - Feb 23 by Championship
I agree with the last paragraph.
I'm just saying I think they will argue the £350m is factually accurate and probably get away with it. I completely agree that is is misleading and we get rebates etc but the number is still accurate. It was wilfully misused, no doubt, but factually I just can't see this going anywhere. The judge's personal views shouldn't play a part. I doubt Boris is too worried by these proceedings.
I bet Boris won't be too worried too. He knows he's beyond touchable, or that at best it's very difficult to hold him to account. He's lied about plenty of other stuff and has wasted public money, and has never had to face the consequences of his actions. The only one that's caught up with him is his missus kicking him out (I think she did, but Boris' private life is the least of my worries so i may have that wrong).
He's not alone. Politics across all parties seems utterly corrupt. Mostly morally corrupt, but also financially in some cases. Maybe it always has been but it's easier to find out what's going these days.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:50 - Feb 23 by Swansea_Blue
I bet Boris won't be too worried too. He knows he's beyond touchable, or that at best it's very difficult to hold him to account. He's lied about plenty of other stuff and has wasted public money, and has never had to face the consequences of his actions. The only one that's caught up with him is his missus kicking him out (I think she did, but Boris' private life is the least of my worries so i may have that wrong).
He's not alone. Politics across all parties seems utterly corrupt. Mostly morally corrupt, but also financially in some cases. Maybe it always has been but it's easier to find out what's going these days.
Completely agree. Can even argue that removing citizenships is down to the personal ambitions of the people making the decisions.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:07 - Feb 23 with 2049 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:50 - Feb 23 by sparks
They may have done. We dont know what advice has been received. They might have advised that the prospects are very limited- but a client can still instruct them to proceed, so long as they are not misleading the court, or knowingly bringing a case which is hopeless.
Doesn't any lawyer have a duty of care to his client where he thinks his client is chasing a lost cause?
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:13 - Feb 23 with 2041 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 13:35 - Feb 23 by Lord_Lucan
Ok No9
Thing is...............we often meet for a chit chat so you will well no that I am a very simple man, so can you in very short words explain to me what Andrew Neils personal opinion has anything to do with the facts that were broadcast?
I will watch / listen again. Hannan at leasr made several statements (as an MEP) claiming the Uk could leave the EU & stay in the single market Trouble is LL a lot of this stuff can't be fully check as Mr Neil doesn't always supply sources. BUT that isn't the point of the prosecution.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:22 - Feb 23 with 2038 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 12:48 - Feb 23 by Championship
I agree with the last paragraph.
I'm just saying I think they will argue the £350m is factually accurate and probably get away with it. I completely agree that is is misleading and we get rebates etc but the number is still accurate. It was wilfully misused, no doubt, but factually I just can't see this going anywhere. The judge's personal views shouldn't play a part. I doubt Boris is too worried by these proceedings.
But it still isn't factually accurate though. Or any kind of accurate - let alone factual.
(That doesn't make sense).
However, even if we were to put aside all the other facts of that being a gross sum and all that, it is still a figure that changes each year so in that respect it still made up.
The 350 was based on [insert year here - I can't be bothered to look; 2015 maybe or summit?] one year's accounts, so to even portray it as set in stone on any level was wrong.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 11:47 - Feb 23 by Darth_Koont
Yes, but that sort of warm and woolly, we-support-the-NHS nonsense is part and parcel of modern politics. The figures themselves at least can be and were factually challenged and Johnson shouldn't have kept going back to them so readily.
[Post edited 23 Feb 2019 11:48]
Yes they were wrong, when you add i all the tariffs we collect and then hand over to the EU, you will see its probably 3 times that amount. Funny how no one picks up on that though isn't it. Still who needs the truth if you are happy to believe lies.
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Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:59 - Feb 23 with 2010 views
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:58 - Feb 23 by gazzer1999
Yes they were wrong, when you add i all the tariffs we collect and then hand over to the EU, you will see its probably 3 times that amount. Funny how no one picks up on that though isn't it. Still who needs the truth if you are happy to believe lies.
Boris Johnson & Big Red Bus lies on 15:59 - Feb 23 by jeera
Those tariffs are not ours to keep.
Lots of people have picked up on it.
But they are, thats why our goods are uncompetitive. When we leave we can either keep £18 - £20 billion a year and spend as we see fit, or reduce tariffs and all our goods we buy including food will be cheaper. So whats not to like. The EU wastes the money we collect in tariffs. If you go back 40 years this country had a great manufacturing industry, but by being in the EU all our business's closed so we don't make anything any more. Hopefully we will see this opportunity to restart our manufacturing industry, thus creating more jobs, and reducing the need to import goods. This will not happen overnight but providing we do not end up with a socialist government it could be just what we need.
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