| This second referendum malarky 07:45 - Feb 27 with 8407 views | dickie |
I don't understand why each side may have a problem with it. I feel like if it were run again with the facts now much more available/lies uncovered then the result whichever way it went would have to stand. If the people got spooked and voted remain, so be it. If the people want to leave knowing all the facts, so be it. Seems like a no brainer to me |  | | |  |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:50 - Feb 27 with 3719 views | Sarge |
Yeah but...democracy blah blah blub
If the will of the people genuinely is to leave then Leave should surely be confident that would be confirmed in a second referendum. If it’s not, then let’s stop this whole ridiculous farce | | | |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:53 - Feb 27 with 3705 views | dickie |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:50 - Feb 27 by Sarge |
Yeah but...democracy blah blah blub
If the will of the people genuinely is to leave then Leave should surely be confident that would be confirmed in a second referendum. If it’s not, then let’s stop this whole ridiculous farce |
The worst argument against it I always seem to hear now is "I'm sick of it, let's just get on and leave" (also known as the "cut your nose off to spite your face" argument) | | | |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:10 - Feb 27 with 3668 views | itfcjoe |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:53 - Feb 27 by dickie |
The worst argument against it I always seem to hear now is "I'm sick of it, let's just get on and leave" (also known as the "cut your nose off to spite your face" argument) |
Surely the worst argument is how a democratic vote following on from a previous democratic vote which now has us in this position is the death of democracy? |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:16 - Feb 27 with 3650 views | 26_Paz |
Imagine you had played a football match right at the start of the season, your side had narrowly won 1-0. There had been a few contentious refereeing decisions but you'd won and banked the three points. Much of the season passes with some whining from the losing side but you generally assume the three points are yours and that come the end of the season will count to your points total. Just as the season is about to end and you are about to achieve your goal (promotion or avoiding relegation) the whining from the losing side reaches fever pitch and the clamour to replay the game intensifies. Why would you, as the winning side, risk the three points you've already banked. Even if you are 90% certain you would win again and shut the moaners up for ever, why would you risk it? You've already won. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:18 - Feb 27 with 3636 views | WeWereZombies |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:16 - Feb 27 by 26_Paz |
Imagine you had played a football match right at the start of the season, your side had narrowly won 1-0. There had been a few contentious refereeing decisions but you'd won and banked the three points. Much of the season passes with some whining from the losing side but you generally assume the three points are yours and that come the end of the season will count to your points total. Just as the season is about to end and you are about to achieve your goal (promotion or avoiding relegation) the whining from the losing side reaches fever pitch and the clamour to replay the game intensifies. Why would you, as the winning side, risk the three points you've already banked. Even if you are 90% certain you would win again and shut the moaners up for ever, why would you risk it? You've already won. |
Different game, different rules.
By the way, we are not moaning, we are exercising our right to have a voice and the only reason you see it as moaning is guilt over what you have done. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:19 - Feb 27 with 3633 views | jonathanton |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:16 - Feb 27 by 26_Paz |
Imagine you had played a football match right at the start of the season, your side had narrowly won 1-0. There had been a few contentious refereeing decisions but you'd won and banked the three points. Much of the season passes with some whining from the losing side but you generally assume the three points are yours and that come the end of the season will count to your points total. Just as the season is about to end and you are about to achieve your goal (promotion or avoiding relegation) the whining from the losing side reaches fever pitch and the clamour to replay the game intensifies. Why would you, as the winning side, risk the three points you've already banked. Even if you are 90% certain you would win again and shut the moaners up for ever, why would you risk it? You've already won. |
What a load of tosh, completely incomparable. | | | |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:20 - Feb 27 with 3631 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:10 - Feb 27 by itfcjoe |
Surely the worst argument is how a democratic vote following on from a previous democratic vote which now has us in this position is the death of democracy? |
Because then there might be a call for a third democratic vote.
What was it? "Once in a generation referendum" |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:22 - Feb 27 with 3623 views | 26_Paz |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:18 - Feb 27 by WeWereZombies |
Different game, different rules.
By the way, we are not moaning, we are exercising our right to have a voice and the only reason you see it as moaning is guilt over what you have done. |
You've had a voice, twice. The referendum and then the 2017 General Election where over 80% of people voted for parties who promised to deliver the referendum. There were parties standing on manifestoes that promised a second vote (Lib Dems for one) but hardly anybody voted for them. We can't keep voting on this indefinitely. | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 with 3628 views | hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:27 - Feb 27 with 3595 views | britbiker |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:50 - Feb 27 by Sarge |
Yeah but...democracy blah blah blub
If the will of the people genuinely is to leave then Leave should surely be confident that would be confirmed in a second referendum. If it’s not, then let’s stop this whole ridiculous farce |
You cant just say democracy blah blah bulb and that sorts out this whole mess. Over riding every thing that has gone before it. [Post edited 27 Feb 2019 10:48]
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:28 - Feb 27 with 3591 views | itfcjoe |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:20 - Feb 27 by Lord_Lucan |
Because then there might be a call for a third democratic vote.
What was it? "Once in a generation referendum" |
But if people can't see the difference between a vote when none of the future process is known, and one where we have an actual agreed deal in front of us then that's mad.
It's not re-running the referendum, it's anew referendum with much more information now known.
Like agreeing to but a house and having a chance to change your mind after having the survey done. | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:31 - Feb 27 with 3589 views | Guthrum |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:22 - Feb 27 by 26_Paz |
You've had a voice, twice. The referendum and then the 2017 General Election where over 80% of people voted for parties who promised to deliver the referendum. There were parties standing on manifestoes that promised a second vote (Lib Dems for one) but hardly anybody voted for them. We can't keep voting on this indefinitely. |
The 2017 election point is a false and misleading one. Brexit was far from the only issue being voted upon. Economic and social policy formed the vast bulk of manifestoes. Belief in competence to govern was also a major factor. As were historical circumstances and tactical voting. It was nothing like a referendum. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:46 - Feb 27 with 3543 views | blueislander |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:31 - Feb 27 by Guthrum |
The 2017 election point is a false and misleading one. Brexit was far from the only issue being voted upon. Economic and social policy formed the vast bulk of manifestoes. Belief in competence to govern was also a major factor. As were historical circumstances and tactical voting. It was nothing like a referendum. |
I do get the “that’s democracy” argument for not having a second referendum, but I think it is trumped by the fact that the public are (or should be) much better informed. Literally no one knew what leaving the EU entailed. I think it would still be a close run thing. Most people, I imagine, would not change their vote. There are those who would change to remain on seeing the seemingly intractable difficulties that leaving throws up. Similarly there would be those who voted remain who are really fed up with what they perceive as intolerable behavior of the EU. | | | |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:47 - Feb 27 with 3535 views | Darth_Koont |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 by hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |
"People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it."
The EU hasn't spun real issues like the Irish border, trade disruption through non-tariff barriers and the absence of any coherent Leave plan. May has certainly contributed to the mess by dicking around for over two years and flirting with the idea of no-deal to get the lunatic fringe onside, but overall our political parties and system look unable to cope with this.
There's been a critical lack of honesty and competence at the heart of this, and our politicians are generally too weak and self-serving to lead the way out of it. That's why the idea of a second referendum is at least a way forward.
Personally, I'd like someone to call it as it is and just put Brexit out of its misery. We should be able to admit that collectively we just don't know what we're doing and there's no majority or mandate for any other course of action now. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:47 - Feb 27 with 3536 views | ZedRodgers |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:10 - Feb 27 by itfcjoe |
Surely the worst argument is how a democratic vote following on from a previous democratic vote which now has us in this position is the death of democracy? |
More democracy seems to be seen as less democracy. |  |
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| on 08:49 - Feb 27 with 3529 views | _ |
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| on 08:51 - Feb 27 with 3514 views | _ |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:28 - Feb 27 by itfcjoe |
But if people can't see the difference between a vote when none of the future process is known, and one where we have an actual agreed deal in front of us then that's mad.
It's not re-running the referendum, it's anew referendum with much more information now known.
Like agreeing to but a house and having a chance to change your mind after having the survey done. |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:54 - Feb 27 with 3503 views | ZedRodgers |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 by hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |
Blaming the EU for the mess we've made is embarrassing. Every element of this which has resulted in problems is a result of our 'red lines' and our pandering to nationalist nonsense.
A binary choice has now been fractured into so many pieces that no route from here to the end of March can command the majority you still seem to think is represented by a '52%'. That 52% effectively no longer exists, now that the reality is a matter of days away. | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:57 - Feb 27 with 3491 views | Guthrum |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 by hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |
Not really, as there will (supposedly) be specific outcomes on this ballot paper. May's deal, no deal, possibly other deals, maybe Remain.
My objection is more that it will be very tricky to do effectively and is likely to just further muddy the waters.
Or, worst of all, if it a simple yes/no on a deal agreed by the EU and Parliamemt/the Government, then it will merely be rejected and return us to square one.
'The classic J curve' isn't some sort of determinitive process, but a function of good outcomes. Which may or may not exist in this case. | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 08:59 - Feb 27 with 3483 views | WeWereZombies |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 by hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |
The opinion of our former Ambassador to the US and the EU, and the man who drafted Article 50, is probably more informed than any of us:
'Before the 2016 Referendum, Lord Kerr had argued that leaving would mean that "our influence across the world would shrink",[13] and looking back in a lecture at the University of Bath on 26 January 2017 he remarked, "We have been strong in Brussels because we have been strong in Washington, and we have been strong in Washington because we have been strong in Brussels". He has maintained, in House of Lords speeches and in a BBC interview, that since an Article 50 notification is revocable during the two-year negotiation period, the UK could change its mind and choose to stay in the EU even after exit negotiations had begun.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerr%2C_Baron_Kerr_of_Kinlochard#Views_on_Bre
If nothing changes 29th March is when we lose control, this is our times Suez moment, when we realise that the World does not revolve around us and this time we do not have the French at our side. The EU may like our contribution but if our attitude is a threat to the cohesion of the Union then I think they would rather be rid of us. And you have to admit that 27 disparate nations have a made a better effort of the negotiations than our four (one of which voted 62% to Remain and another is greatly concerned about a resurgence of the troubles - and that is before we consider Gibraltar, always seems to get ignored doesn't it? I guess NATO will have to cover that one). | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 09:02 - Feb 27 with 3471 views | Basuco |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:23 - Feb 27 by hampstead_blue |
A 2nd referendum would be a democratic travesty.
People promoting it state that 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true. What we know is how the EU have spun it and how badly May has dealt with it.
The EU will do anything to stop us leaving. They need our money. Tusk and the leaders couldn't give a damn about Britain. They want our cash and that's all.
Replace the false spin of 'we didn't know how it would turn out' with 'I'm glad we did as the EU are showing how they treat people who want out'......
Brexit is simply following the classic 'J curve'. We're in the dip but will very soon be enjoying our freedom. |
" 'we now know more about the reality'...that is not true."
So tell me again about the £350 million spare cash the UK will have every day and how leaving will stop immigrants taking "our" jobs. This was and still is quoted as the main reason for voting leave. |  | | |
| This second referendum malarky on 09:06 - Feb 27 with 3452 views | Lesta_Tractor |
| This second referendum malarky on 07:53 - Feb 27 by dickie |
The worst argument against it I always seem to hear now is "I'm sick of it, let's just get on and leave" (also known as the "cut your nose off to spite your face" argument) |
Is a marginal majority of 3/4 of the population really the will of the people though?
I wonder if the result would have been different if we had mandatory voting like in Australia. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 09:07 - Feb 27 with 3443 views | ZedRodgers |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:57 - Feb 27 by Guthrum |
Not really, as there will (supposedly) be specific outcomes on this ballot paper. May's deal, no deal, possibly other deals, maybe Remain.
My objection is more that it will be very tricky to do effectively and is likely to just further muddy the waters.
Or, worst of all, if it a simple yes/no on a deal agreed by the EU and Parliamemt/the Government, then it will merely be rejected and return us to square one.
'The classic J curve' isn't some sort of determinitive process, but a function of good outcomes. Which may or may not exist in this case. |
I think it's quite clear now that if the Labour backed amendment passes, remain will be an option.
Would you agree that if May's withdrawal agreement, leaving with no deal, and extension of Art.50 are all rejected, she has effectively put remain on the table herself?
I don't see any way for the first two votes to be binding without the third vote - a rejection of an extension to Article 50 - resulting in it needed to be revoked. If parliament has rejected leaving without a deal on 29th March, rejected leaving with the only deal available before the end of March and then reject an extension to Article 50, does that not mean withdrawing Article 50 is all that's left? | |
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| This second referendum malarky on 09:09 - Feb 27 with 3431 views | Pinewoodblue |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:22 - Feb 27 by 26_Paz |
You've had a voice, twice. The referendum and then the 2017 General Election where over 80% of people voted for parties who promised to deliver the referendum. There were parties standing on manifestoes that promised a second vote (Lib Dems for one) but hardly anybody voted for them. We can't keep voting on this indefinitely. |
Nearly 500 MPs voted to submit article 50 letter and to leave the EU on 29th March deal or no deal, don't think they were lied to or mislead and don't forget no deal is better than a bad deal. |  |
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| This second referendum malarky on 09:12 - Feb 27 with 3421 views | flimflam |
| This second referendum malarky on 08:22 - Feb 27 by 26_Paz |
You've had a voice, twice. The referendum and then the 2017 General Election where over 80% of people voted for parties who promised to deliver the referendum. There were parties standing on manifestoes that promised a second vote (Lib Dems for one) but hardly anybody voted for them. We can't keep voting on this indefinitely. |
Also a third vote written into law by MP's to initiate Article 50 that clearly states we leave on March 29th with or without a deal.
The whole thing stinks and 17.4 million voters will voice their opinions at the next elections where Labour and Conservatives will be toast.
This is all playing straight into the arms of UKIP, Brexit Party and any other group that are non main stream.
UK politics is the laughing stock of the world right now.
Have a read up on the Lisbon Treaty and where that will take us in the next decade if we dont do something to reverse it now. Scary stuff. [Post edited 27 Feb 2019 9:14]
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