| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) 07:21 - Mar 8 with 8028 views | christiand |
Thoughts? [Post edited 8 Mar 2019 7:22]
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:30 - Mar 8 with 3677 views | Lord_Lucan |
I saw the first one last night.
I’m in two minds, I don’t want to think he was a bad man but I’m becoming more convinced that he has succeeded in becoming the world champion of the most successful paedophile living in plain sight.
Don’t take this the wrong way - and I am not making excusing him - but even if he is guilty I sort of feel sorry for him. Is that very wrong? His own life was screwed up by his parents. He was a mentalist. |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:53 - Mar 8 with 3636 views | uefacup81 |
I struggle to take it seriously.
Lots of allegations, but no evidence.
Swore under oath at the trial that nothing had happened, but change their tune once he's dead and someone's paying for their 'testimony'. |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:55 - Mar 8 with 3633 views | itfcjoe |
I've watched the first half, it's pretty sickening how he was able to be such a predatory groomer but allowed to get away with it |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:02 - Mar 8 with 3605 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:53 - Mar 8 by uefacup81 |
I struggle to take it seriously.
Lots of allegations, but no evidence.
Swore under oath at the trial that nothing had happened, but change their tune once he's dead and someone's paying for their 'testimony'. |
Really.......until you admit it to yourself your going to deny it to the world. He ended up a wrong'un who never had a childhood. |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:04 - Mar 8 with 3601 views | itfcjoe |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:30 - Mar 8 by Lord_Lucan |
I saw the first one last night.
I’m in two minds, I don’t want to think he was a bad man but I’m becoming more convinced that he has succeeded in becoming the world champion of the most successful paedophile living in plain sight.
Don’t take this the wrong way - and I am not making excusing him - but even if he is guilty I sort of feel sorry for him. Is that very wrong? His own life was screwed up by his parents. He was a mentalist. |
This is a good piece written shortly after his death
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-jackson-bad-and-very-d
I get the point that he was effectively abused by his parents, and can see why a degree of sympathy but he has inflicted that same thing on lots more people (children, and their families). | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:09 - Mar 8 with 3578 views | footers |
Sick, sad world of showbiz and Hollywood.
Pretty sure he was inappropriate with many children, but at the same time there were parents complicit in allowing their kids to go there and plenty of other chancers out there who are willing to fabricate stories.
Not that I wish to deny anyone's stories of abuse- just saying there are many people who would and could considering his vast estate.
But if you know what hardcore Jacko fans are like it would be quite brave of you to either come forward or fabricate given their ridiculous cultish behaviour. Scientology hasn't got a thing on these weirdos.
And his music wasn't all that great either tbf. Not sure what all the fuss is about. (Awaits pelters) |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:20 - Mar 8 with 3538 views | LKW15 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:53 - Mar 8 by uefacup81 |
I struggle to take it seriously.
Lots of allegations, but no evidence.
Swore under oath at the trial that nothing had happened, but change their tune once he's dead and someone's paying for their 'testimony'. |
as you say there is no concrete evidence but i found their stories pretty compelling. they were both very consistent in their stories and the methods in which they were groomed by Jackson.
from all the reports i have read they weren't paid to appear in the documentary so i don't see what they stand to gain from talking about it now in such graphic detail, other than wanting to expose the truth | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:52 - Mar 8 with 3496 views | SouperJim |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:20 - Mar 8 by LKW15 |
as you say there is no concrete evidence but i found their stories pretty compelling. they were both very consistent in their stories and the methods in which they were groomed by Jackson.
from all the reports i have read they weren't paid to appear in the documentary so i don't see what they stand to gain from talking about it now in such graphic detail, other than wanting to expose the truth |
Doesn't at least one of the pair have an on-going multi-million pound lawsuit which is just coming up to a crucial stage or somesuch? I'm sure I heard something along those lines on the radio.
Only watched the first part, but found the whole thing murky on both sides tbh. Impossible to know where the truth is. |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:55 - Mar 8 with 3484 views | footers |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:52 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Doesn't at least one of the pair have an on-going multi-million pound lawsuit which is just coming up to a crucial stage or somesuch? I'm sure I heard something along those lines on the radio.
Only watched the first part, but found the whole thing murky on both sides tbh. Impossible to know where the truth is. |
A lady on the Louis Theroux campus rape doc over the weekend made this important point about her trial:
"I didn't have a broken nose, I had a broken sense of self-esteem."
Very difficult with things like this to produce material evidence, mostly circumstancial, hearsay and conjecture. | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:56 - Mar 8 with 3482 views | wkj |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 08:53 - Mar 8 by uefacup81 |
I struggle to take it seriously.
Lots of allegations, but no evidence.
Swore under oath at the trial that nothing had happened, but change their tune once he's dead and someone's paying for their 'testimony'. |
I thought the same thing, in fact I said to my missus "This is like most political motivated posts on TWTD" |  |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:14 - Mar 8 with 3426 views | SouperJim |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:55 - Mar 8 by footers |
A lady on the Louis Theroux campus rape doc over the weekend made this important point about her trial:
"I didn't have a broken nose, I had a broken sense of self-esteem."
Very difficult with things like this to produce material evidence, mostly circumstancial, hearsay and conjecture. |
Yes, but Saif Khan is clearly a wrongun. Much harder to tell if Wacko was or not, the guy was clearly a very troubled eccentric, but does that make him a nonce or just someone who left himself wide open to allegations of abuse from people looking to profiteer (even years down the line)?
One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made.
I suspect the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle - he had inappropriate relationships with children that would now be considered abusive, said individuals are now happy to profit from that fact. | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:22 - Mar 8 with 3406 views | footers |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:14 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Yes, but Saif Khan is clearly a wrongun. Much harder to tell if Wacko was or not, the guy was clearly a very troubled eccentric, but does that make him a nonce or just someone who left himself wide open to allegations of abuse from people looking to profiteer (even years down the line)?
One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made.
I suspect the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle - he had inappropriate relationships with children that would now be considered abusive, said individuals are now happy to profit from that fact. |
Totally right on that Saif character- what his former friend said completely threw me off guard! Just shows how manipulative and fcking disgusting some people can be.
Haven't watched the doc so would be unfair for me to comment, but completely agree with the rest of your post. So many parents looking for fame and a payout that they'd be so negligent. Awful. | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:30 - Mar 8 with 3390 views | No9 |
I watched both. Although it was dealt with very sympathetically it very sad, in many ways. | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:42 - Mar 8 with 3361 views | LKW15 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 09:52 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Doesn't at least one of the pair have an on-going multi-million pound lawsuit which is just coming up to a crucial stage or somesuch? I'm sure I heard something along those lines on the radio.
Only watched the first part, but found the whole thing murky on both sides tbh. Impossible to know where the truth is. |
Quite possibly, i think they both sued Jackson's production companies are few years ago saying they were a front for the alleged grooming operations, from what i understand both were thrown out on a technicality with no judgement on the truth their testimony.
Like you say we will never know the truth and it will just come down to who's word you believe. The documentary is flawed in that Jackson was never going to have a right to reply and they don't go into much detail about the pair's previous lawsuits against MJ. They have a clip of him defending himself at the time the original abuse trial which i didn't find particularity believable but had been preceded two hours of the accusers graphic stories so perhaps i was biased | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:46 - Mar 8 with 3349 views | SouperJim |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:22 - Mar 8 by footers |
Totally right on that Saif character- what his former friend said completely threw me off guard! Just shows how manipulative and fcking disgusting some people can be.
Haven't watched the doc so would be unfair for me to comment, but completely agree with the rest of your post. So many parents looking for fame and a payout that they'd be so negligent. Awful. |
Hearing both mothers describe how they were happy to leave their sons in Jackson's care, even his bed, sometimes for days at a time completely unsupervised was mind-blowing. As a parent, I just can't understand their mindset. | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:49 - Mar 8 with 3343 views | No9 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:14 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Yes, but Saif Khan is clearly a wrongun. Much harder to tell if Wacko was or not, the guy was clearly a very troubled eccentric, but does that make him a nonce or just someone who left himself wide open to allegations of abuse from people looking to profiteer (even years down the line)?
One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made.
I suspect the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle - he had inappropriate relationships with children that would now be considered abusive, said individuals are now happy to profit from that fact. |
"One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made."
This is what made it sad isn't it? But isn't that the story of the entertainment industry, particularly in the USA?
No one apart from me remember the stories about the 'casting couch'? | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:02 - Mar 8 with 3271 views | LKW15 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:14 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Yes, but Saif Khan is clearly a wrongun. Much harder to tell if Wacko was or not, the guy was clearly a very troubled eccentric, but does that make him a nonce or just someone who left himself wide open to allegations of abuse from people looking to profiteer (even years down the line)?
One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made.
I suspect the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle - he had inappropriate relationships with children that would now be considered abusive, said individuals are now happy to profit from that fact. |
I agree about the mother's seeming fame hungry, particularly the Australian. What i took from that though is it just made them more susceptible to being dazzled and manipulated by MJ which allowed him to get away with what he allegedly did. | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:08 - Mar 8 with 3250 views | LKW15 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:46 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Hearing both mothers describe how they were happy to leave their sons in Jackson's care, even his bed, sometimes for days at a time completely unsupervised was mind-blowing. As a parent, I just can't understand their mindset. |
the bit where the american mother described how she didn't really question how on the tour the hotel rooms she was staying in and the rooms her son and MJ were staying in got further and further apart until they were on separate floors was ridiculous. At least the Australian drew the line at allowing her son to move in with Jackson for year without her! [Post edited 8 Mar 2019 11:08]
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:32 - Mar 8 with 3193 views | itfcjoe |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 10:14 - Mar 8 by SouperJim |
Yes, but Saif Khan is clearly a wrongun. Much harder to tell if Wacko was or not, the guy was clearly a very troubled eccentric, but does that make him a nonce or just someone who left himself wide open to allegations of abuse from people looking to profiteer (even years down the line)?
One thing that wasn't lost on me, is both "boys" and their mothers came across as fame/attention hungry. One mother in particular still seemed quite boastful of the relationship they had with a popstar, despite the allegations being made.
I suspect the truth probably sits somewhere in the middle - he had inappropriate relationships with children that would now be considered abusive, said individuals are now happy to profit from that fact. |
What do you make of this from the Independent article posted above, which has presumably been through the lawyers as in a national newspaper:
"Jordy Chandler, Jackson’s first accuser, gave detectives a detailed description of Jackson’s genital area, including distinctive “splotches” on his buttocks and one on his penis. The boy’s information was so accurate he was able to locate where the splotch moved to when Jackson’s penis became erect and the fact that he was circumcised. Jackson was brought in and his genitals duly photographed. Soon after this shoot (surely one of the stranger photo sessions endured by the singer) was matched up to Chandler’s description, Jackson suddenly agreed to settle Chandler’s civil claim out of court for somewhere north of $20m (£12.2m)." | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 8 with 3188 views | itfcjoe |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:02 - Mar 8 by LKW15 |
I agree about the mother's seeming fame hungry, particularly the Australian. What i took from that though is it just made them more susceptible to being dazzled and manipulated by MJ which allowed him to get away with what he allegedly did. |
He was the most famous man on the planet at the time, he seemed to groom the parents as much as he did the children | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:38 - Mar 8 with 3169 views | Lord_Lucan |
That's a decent read. The more I think about it the more I think that we are heading for another Jimmy Savile situation when people end up slapping their collective foreheads and think "What the feck, why didn't we realise at the time" | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:40 - Mar 8 with 3150 views | No9 |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 8 by itfcjoe |
He was the most famous man on the planet at the time, he seemed to groom the parents as much as he did the children |
It was necessary for him to convince the parents the kids were safe with him. If he couldn't do tat he would not have access to the kids.
The parents no doubt had at least one eye on the prize of fame & fortune | | | |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:42 - Mar 8 with 3139 views | itfcjoe |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:38 - Mar 8 by Lord_Lucan |
That's a decent read. The more I think about it the more I think that we are heading for another Jimmy Savile situation when people end up slapping their collective foreheads and think "What the feck, why didn't we realise at the time" |
I can't believe we aren't there already.
Although had Jimmy Saville had a £1bn estate with legal team to match where would we be? | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:47 - Mar 8 with 3122 views | footers |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:38 - Mar 8 by Lord_Lucan |
That's a decent read. The more I think about it the more I think that we are heading for another Jimmy Savile situation when people end up slapping their collective foreheads and think "What the feck, why didn't we realise at the time" |
Now I am not old enough for Savile to have been on telly much, but surely people must have thought that at the time too? Just so so weird. Or was everyone like that in the 70s?
John Lydon and Mark E Smith certainly knew, along with many others. | |
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| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:50 - Mar 8 with 3108 views | itfcjoe |
| Leaving Neverland, did anyone watch it? (n/t) on 11:47 - Mar 8 by footers |
Now I am not old enough for Savile to have been on telly much, but surely people must have thought that at the time too? Just so so weird. Or was everyone like that in the 70s?
John Lydon and Mark E Smith certainly knew, along with many others. |
It's obviously not the same, as one is a crime, but it amazes me that people didn't realise George Michael was gay! | |
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