| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum 18:00 - Mar 14 with 15910 views | pickles110564 |
As it was agreed in their party conference, i said at the time Corbyn would not allow it.
i was shouted down by several saying that Corbyn would back one, how come they have just rejected the vote to have one? |  | | |  |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:02 - Mar 15 with 2535 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 23:18 - Mar 14 by Ryorry |
Think it's harsh to criticize anyone for not understanding when it's not only so complex but also situation changing so rapidly - sometimes by the hour, never mind the day. I'd say those who don't understand what's going on at any given moment are in a far greater majority than 52%, and even include some MPs - and myself!!  |
Is it that complex really?
The government release information regarding tariffs that will be applied a.m. 30 March which has probably scared the DUP as they will have to deal with the fall out from what that info contains.
A vote one who controls what in parliament scrapes through which will no doubt have scared a few in the right wing mafia
a vote to extend A50 gets through meaning the right wing may still lose brexit
Now - meaningful vote 3 will be held to pull all those into line who want brexit = it's gambling with the UK's future no more, no less
Now some tories are caling for May to go immediately
And to think this mob could be determining the UK's future with the executive power contained in Mays agreement??? |  | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:05 - Mar 15 with 2531 views | Ryorry |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 09:51 - Mar 15 by Butterbing |
I'm not a political lawyer but as I understand it the house would just need to pass a motion to do this. Presumably, this is theoretically still possible. As I stated earlier it is probable that the EU will accept our request for an extension to Article 50 so revoking Article 50 is not actually being considered. It does raise an interesting question though. If the EU were to reject our request for an extension on the basis that there is no reason to extend (the best deal they will offer has been rejected) could we revoke Article 50 then go back to the drawing board and re-start the process with a better idea and a required outcome that has a chance of succeeding? [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 9:52]
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Thing is, it only takes 1 (one!) of the 27 other members to say 'non' to the extension and that's it, no extension. What are the chances of one of those countries with an axe to grind (say Spain re Gib) sticking a spanner in? |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:14 - Mar 15 with 2521 views | Ryorry |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:02 - Mar 15 by No9 |
Is it that complex really?
The government release information regarding tariffs that will be applied a.m. 30 March which has probably scared the DUP as they will have to deal with the fall out from what that info contains.
A vote one who controls what in parliament scrapes through which will no doubt have scared a few in the right wing mafia
a vote to extend A50 gets through meaning the right wing may still lose brexit
Now - meaningful vote 3 will be held to pull all those into line who want brexit = it's gambling with the UK's future no more, no less
Now some tories are caling for May to go immediately
And to think this mob could be determining the UK's future with the executive power contained in Mays agreement??? |
Yes it bloody well is, not only do I not understand most of what you've written there! but Adrian Chiles ran a little feature around 10.15 this morning focussing on how few (he suggested 1%!) understand all the complexities (eg addendums to addendums) and jargon ("meaningful" votes, the various other "not meaningful" votes, names of which I've already forgotten). He also suggested that even many MPs don't understand it all, as none of them have ever been called on to go through all these procedural labyrinths before. | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:17 - Mar 15 with 2516 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:05 - Mar 15 by Ryorry |
Thing is, it only takes 1 (one!) of the 27 other members to say 'non' to the extension and that's it, no extension. What are the chances of one of those countries with an axe to grind (say Spain re Gib) sticking a spanner in? |
Your point is a good one and not enough from the European media gets into the British press.
The EU have made it pretty clear they can't reopen negotiations because of the demands of others.
It seems obvoius a long extension may be granted IF the UK can show the EU they will find a way to get the country together.
A lot of objections have bee raised by various parties about the UK being involved in the EU elections which it seems no one wants but EU law doesn't allow the EU to prohibit the UK from holding EU elections. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:33 - Mar 15 with 2484 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 07:43 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
It’s too open-ended.
If Labour’s amendment on for a People’s Vote on May’s deal failed in January then what you’re suggesting is even less likely to win over any other Tory votes, which is what’s required.
What makes you think May’s deal will overcome a loss of 150 votes next week, especially now that HoC has voted to request an extension? I feel that your “and that’s that” might be slightly premature. |
We'll see - although the odds are against it, there's still a significant chance that the DUP agree to the deal, more cash to NI etc. and then lots of Tory MPs will then change their position. If that happens, there will be a lot of people furious with the way the Labour party have handled this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:34]
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:37 - Mar 15 with 2477 views | Herbivore |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:33 - Mar 15 by gordon |
We'll see - although the odds are against it, there's still a significant chance that the DUP agree to the deal, more cash to NI etc. and then lots of Tory MPs will then change their position. If that happens, there will be a lot of people furious with the way the Labour party have handled this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:34]
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Should they not be furious at the way the Tories have handled it? Bullying and bribing their way to forcing through a deal very few people really want. Even if Labour had whipped for the ammendment it wouldn't have got close to passing. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:38 - Mar 15 with 2475 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:33 - Mar 15 by gordon |
We'll see - although the odds are against it, there's still a significant chance that the DUP agree to the deal, more cash to NI etc. and then lots of Tory MPs will then change their position. If that happens, there will be a lot of people furious with the way the Labour party have handled this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:34]
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What should they have done differently?
I have no doubts that once May's deal is brought back to parliament (again), Labour will table the same amendment as they did last time which legislates for a public vote. This will likely lose (again). It would be more effective for people to direct their ferocity at the people who are actually blocking it. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:40 - Mar 15 with 2468 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 11:14 - Mar 15 by Ryorry |
Yes it bloody well is, not only do I not understand most of what you've written there! but Adrian Chiles ran a little feature around 10.15 this morning focussing on how few (he suggested 1%!) understand all the complexities (eg addendums to addendums) and jargon ("meaningful" votes, the various other "not meaningful" votes, names of which I've already forgotten). He also suggested that even many MPs don't understand it all, as none of them have ever been called on to go through all these procedural labyrinths before. |
Some of the stuff yesterday was part of running down the clock
Which is why for some of the voting the ERG mob were down the pub. | | | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:43 - Mar 15 with 2465 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:33 - Mar 15 by gordon |
We'll see - although the odds are against it, there's still a significant chance that the DUP agree to the deal, more cash to NI etc. and then lots of Tory MPs will then change their position. If that happens, there will be a lot of people furious with the way the Labour party have handled this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:34]
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I would suggest the release of the proposed tariff details has made the DUP think long & hard about the implications of that happening. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:45 - Mar 15 with 2462 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:38 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
What should they have done differently?
I have no doubts that once May's deal is brought back to parliament (again), Labour will table the same amendment as they did last time which legislates for a public vote. This will likely lose (again). It would be more effective for people to direct their ferocity at the people who are actually blocking it. |
The labour party haven't whipped to support a second public vote, and the front-bench haven't tried to make a case for a second public vote either publicly or in parliament. Those are the two things they should be doing differently.
The party are scared of being seen to stop Brexit, and also scared of being seen to support Brexit, and scared of supporting the Conservative party, so whenever someone from the labour party is interviewed about Brexit, they explain how they've got 7 different policies on Brexit that are completely different from the Tories and that the policies operate on a sequential basis or something. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:50]
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:46 - Mar 15 with 2460 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:38 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
What should they have done differently?
I have no doubts that once May's deal is brought back to parliament (again), Labour will table the same amendment as they did last time which legislates for a public vote. This will likely lose (again). It would be more effective for people to direct their ferocity at the people who are actually blocking it. |
If the vote in the HoC for a 'peoples vote' has any chance it has to be done at the right time doesn't it?
The tories have set this up so it is very difficult to use any parliamentary procedure to bring it down. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:46 - Mar 15 with 2459 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:43 - Mar 15 by No9 |
I would suggest the release of the proposed tariff details has made the DUP think long & hard about the implications of that happening. |
Yes, I'd think the chances are good of May's deal getting through on the third time. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:49 - Mar 15 with 2455 views | Ryorry |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:40 - Mar 15 by No9 |
Some of the stuff yesterday was part of running down the clock
Which is why for some of the voting the ERG mob were down the pub. |
Well that I do understand - talk about a crystallized picture of a few dozen privileged people busying themselves exclusively on ensuring their own comfort, whilst turning a blind eye to the mess they've created and the pain of dozens of millions which carries on outside their cosy little bubble! | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:51 - Mar 15 with 2446 views | Ryorry |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:43 - Mar 15 by No9 |
I would suggest the release of the proposed tariff details has made the DUP think long & hard about the implications of that happening. |
Yes, interesting bit on agriculture, esp export of lamb & beef, on Beeb news last night - massive tarrifs & a farmer saying they couldn't survive that. | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:52 - Mar 15 with 2445 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:38 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
What should they have done differently?
I have no doubts that once May's deal is brought back to parliament (again), Labour will table the same amendment as they did last time which legislates for a public vote. This will likely lose (again). It would be more effective for people to direct their ferocity at the people who are actually blocking it. |
There is little point in calling for a referendum if you don't have a question to put forward.
May's deal isn't a good deal but it is the only deal.Both Labour and Conservative parties made a commitment to honouring the will of the people as expressed in the first referendum. If this is the best deal available then the HoC should approve it.
It is beginning to look as if Labour made a commitment they had no intention of keeping simply to improve their chances in the last General Election. They would have lost votes, especially where their candidate was a committed remainer. There are constituencies where 70+% voted leave but their Labour MPs keep voting against it.
Ipswich wouldn't have a Labour MP if the electorate had known he was going to do his best to block it. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:56 - Mar 15 with 2432 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:46 - Mar 15 by No9 |
If the vote in the HoC for a 'peoples vote' has any chance it has to be done at the right time doesn't it?
The tories have set this up so it is very difficult to use any parliamentary procedure to bring it down. |
Yep, they're looking to tie it in with the Kyle/Wilson amendment (Labour's support for May's deal in exchange for a public vote on it).
with the |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:57 - Mar 15 with 2432 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:51 - Mar 15 by Ryorry |
Yes, interesting bit on agriculture, esp export of lamb & beef, on Beeb news last night - massive tarrifs & a farmer saying they couldn't survive that. |
An interesting bit on the radio - since Mrs may cancelled the vote before Christmas corporate donations to the tories has almost ceased.
Never a mention about private donations from fund managers tho' | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:58 - Mar 15 with 2432 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:45 - Mar 15 by gordon |
The labour party haven't whipped to support a second public vote, and the front-bench haven't tried to make a case for a second public vote either publicly or in parliament. Those are the two things they should be doing differently.
The party are scared of being seen to stop Brexit, and also scared of being seen to support Brexit, and scared of supporting the Conservative party, so whenever someone from the labour party is interviewed about Brexit, they explain how they've got 7 different policies on Brexit that are completely different from the Tories and that the policies operate on a sequential basis or something. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 14:50]
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Make the case? They tabled an amendment for a public vote. It was rejected. They will table another one next week. It will likely be rejected again.
Focusing on them not whipping to support a premature amendment which wasn't even attached to a motion on a deal is ludicrous. I've already made the point that the house can't vote to have a public vote until they know what they will be putting on the ballot paper next to remain. There is currently no leave option to have a second referendum on.
The lack of whipping you're referring to was for an amendment put forward by a group of opportunist independent MPs and was even denounced by the official People's Vote campaign. Even if Labour had whipped, it would have been rejected by a bigger majority than the public vote amendment Labour put forward a few weeks before (you know, the one that the very same opportunist independent MPs I just mentioned voted against).
By your own reasoning, people should be just as 'furious' with the official People's Vote campaign as they are with Labour. | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:58 - Mar 15 with 2432 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:52 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
There is little point in calling for a referendum if you don't have a question to put forward.
May's deal isn't a good deal but it is the only deal.Both Labour and Conservative parties made a commitment to honouring the will of the people as expressed in the first referendum. If this is the best deal available then the HoC should approve it.
It is beginning to look as if Labour made a commitment they had no intention of keeping simply to improve their chances in the last General Election. They would have lost votes, especially where their candidate was a committed remainer. There are constituencies where 70+% voted leave but their Labour MPs keep voting against it.
Ipswich wouldn't have a Labour MP if the electorate had known he was going to do his best to block it. |
Should be quite straightforward to agree a deal, and then have vote on it. That's the way it should have worked from the start. The first referendum was essentially pointless and the cause of all this mess. Having a referendum when we know what the deal is essential. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:01 - Mar 15 with 2424 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:58 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
Make the case? They tabled an amendment for a public vote. It was rejected. They will table another one next week. It will likely be rejected again.
Focusing on them not whipping to support a premature amendment which wasn't even attached to a motion on a deal is ludicrous. I've already made the point that the house can't vote to have a public vote until they know what they will be putting on the ballot paper next to remain. There is currently no leave option to have a second referendum on.
The lack of whipping you're referring to was for an amendment put forward by a group of opportunist independent MPs and was even denounced by the official People's Vote campaign. Even if Labour had whipped, it would have been rejected by a bigger majority than the public vote amendment Labour put forward a few weeks before (you know, the one that the very same opportunist independent MPs I just mentioned voted against).
By your own reasoning, people should be just as 'furious' with the official People's Vote campaign as they are with Labour. |
Either you're being deliberately disingenuous or you don't understand much about what's going on - the Labour front-bench haven't tabled any amendments for a public vote. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:07 - Mar 15 with 2414 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:01 - Mar 15 by gordon |
Either you're being deliberately disingenuous or you don't understand much about what's going on - the Labour front-bench haven't tabled any amendments for a public vote. |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:10 - Mar 15 with 2405 views | WeWereZombies |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:52 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
There is little point in calling for a referendum if you don't have a question to put forward.
May's deal isn't a good deal but it is the only deal.Both Labour and Conservative parties made a commitment to honouring the will of the people as expressed in the first referendum. If this is the best deal available then the HoC should approve it.
It is beginning to look as if Labour made a commitment they had no intention of keeping simply to improve their chances in the last General Election. They would have lost votes, especially where their candidate was a committed remainer. There are constituencies where 70+% voted leave but their Labour MPs keep voting against it.
Ipswich wouldn't have a Labour MP if the electorate had known he was going to do his best to block it. |
How many times does this have to be pointed out?
brexit IS NOT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. It is only 37% of those entitled to vote in a non-binding referendum. And little more than a quarter of the population as a whole. There is no tangible mandate, there was no need to go ahead with it. We are reaping the sad results of not standing up to electoral manipulation and covert threats. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:12 - Mar 15 with 2398 views | gordon |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:07 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
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Indeed, but they need to ditch part i), and agree to support May's deal on the condition that part ii) takes place. | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:15 - Mar 15 with 2384 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 14:58 - Mar 15 by gordon |
Should be quite straightforward to agree a deal, and then have vote on it. That's the way it should have worked from the start. The first referendum was essentially pointless and the cause of all this mess. Having a referendum when we know what the deal is essential. |
The original referendum should have had caveats to ensure it was easy to negotiate.
It was made simple to enable those who broguth it to parliament to manipulate it whichever whay they wanted to.
'The Deal' should be explained to the people but in relaity how many people want to understand it? & it is already being misintepreted by many.
Most people who want to leave don't have any idea why they want to leave. Even now some who have been made aware their livelihood is at stake still want to leave = there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Others are so wealthy they won't get hurt.
You are right it should all have been straightforward | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:17 - Mar 15 with 2383 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:12 - Mar 15 by gordon |
Indeed, but they need to ditch part i), and agree to support May's deal on the condition that part ii) takes place. |
Which is what will happen when Labour back the Kyle/Wilson amendment next week as Swansea has highlighted above.
I would expect Labour to also attempt to put forward their compromised deal first.
Back to the original point of what they should be doing differently... You said they should have whipped to support a public vote - They have done and will be doing again. | |
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