| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum 18:00 - Mar 14 with 15908 views | pickles110564 |
As it was agreed in their party conference, i said at the time Corbyn would not allow it.
i was shouted down by several saying that Corbyn would back one, how come they have just rejected the vote to have one? |  | | |  |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:26 - Mar 15 with 1361 views | StokieBlue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:17 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
Which is what will happen when Labour back the Kyle/Wilson amendment next week as Swansea has highlighted above.
I would expect Labour to also attempt to put forward their compromised deal first.
Back to the original point of what they should be doing differently... You said they should have whipped to support a public vote - They have done and will be doing again. |
On the compromise Zed, have Labour put forward any solutions to squaring the issue that the EU won't allow access to the customs union without freedom of movement which JC has ruled out?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:28 - Mar 15 with 1357 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:26 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
On the compromise Zed, have Labour put forward any solutions to squaring the issue that the EU won't allow access to the customs union without freedom of movement which JC has ruled out?
SB |
What is your view on Free movement?
As it is written in EU laws I am fully in favour of it because it allows me to tr avel to where work to benefit my small company & my family.
I see being exclued from the opportunities the EU offers as being very negative |  | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:30 - Mar 15 with 1353 views | StokieBlue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:28 - Mar 15 by No9 |
What is your view on Free movement?
As it is written in EU laws I am fully in favour of it because it allows me to tr avel to where work to benefit my small company & my family.
I see being exclued from the opportunities the EU offers as being very negative |
Given I want to stay with the current deal we have (the best possible deal) I think my views on it are pretty clear.
What I don't understand is what it has to do with the question I asked Zed.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:45 - Mar 15 with 1338 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:10 - Mar 15 by WeWereZombies |
How many times does this have to be pointed out?
brexit IS NOT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. It is only 37% of those entitled to vote in a non-binding referendum. And little more than a quarter of the population as a whole. There is no tangible mandate, there was no need to go ahead with it. We are reaping the sad results of not standing up to electoral manipulation and covert threats. |
Any party that didn't campaign on accepting the will of the people would have been on a hiding to nothing. Look what happened to LibDems. They would have lost votes and lost seats
The vote was 52/48 you don't take into account those who volunteer not to have their voice heard nor, on the figures you have used, those too young to vote. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:46 - Mar 15 with 1338 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:26 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
On the compromise Zed, have Labour put forward any solutions to squaring the issue that the EU won't allow access to the customs union without freedom of movement which JC has ruled out?
SB |
I think they have moved away from 'freedom of movement coming to an end' in general terms to be honest. I would agree that more transparency here would be helpful, but also that it's a quite a tricky issue.
The membership of a customs union and the 'alignment' with the single market they are putting forward would allow the free movement of qualified workers, something which is actually quite different to free movement of citizens.
I don't think the EU would have endorsed Labour's alternative to the extent they have if they saw this issue being a fundamental obstacle. |  |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:47 - Mar 15 with 1335 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:30 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
Given I want to stay with the current deal we have (the best possible deal) I think my views on it are pretty clear.
What I don't understand is what it has to do with the question I asked Zed.
SB |
I just wanted to get your views on Freedom of movement
Sorry to but in | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:50 - Mar 15 with 1333 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:45 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
Any party that didn't campaign on accepting the will of the people would have been on a hiding to nothing. Look what happened to LibDems. They would have lost votes and lost seats
The vote was 52/48 you don't take into account those who volunteer not to have their voice heard nor, on the figures you have used, those too young to vote. |
Do you accept that in the time taken to get nowhere on this matter that of the 37% of the elctorate who voted to leave any number may no longer be with us & any number may have changed their mind?
Do you also accept that there were many who could not vote then e.g. age or government restrictions, who may now be able to vote and who may not want to leave the EU
Where does that leave the statement 'the will of the people'?
It is nearly 3 years on & a lot has changed - do you deny these people the right? | | | |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:53 - Mar 15 with 1330 views | No9 |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:46 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
I think they have moved away from 'freedom of movement coming to an end' in general terms to be honest. I would agree that more transparency here would be helpful, but also that it's a quite a tricky issue.
The membership of a customs union and the 'alignment' with the single market they are putting forward would allow the free movement of qualified workers, something which is actually quite different to free movement of citizens.
I don't think the EU would have endorsed Labour's alternative to the extent they have if they saw this issue being a fundamental obstacle. |
Sorry to butt in but the EU document only says Freedom of movement of Workers not all & sundry
It was Mrs May as HS who changed that
Before 2010 you ahd to get the OK and make proviosn for those workers you brought in
Bernard Matthews and others dound this out | | | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 16:06 - Mar 15 with 1324 views | StokieBlue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:46 - Mar 15 by ZedRodgers |
I think they have moved away from 'freedom of movement coming to an end' in general terms to be honest. I would agree that more transparency here would be helpful, but also that it's a quite a tricky issue.
The membership of a customs union and the 'alignment' with the single market they are putting forward would allow the free movement of qualified workers, something which is actually quite different to free movement of citizens.
I don't think the EU would have endorsed Labour's alternative to the extent they have if they saw this issue being a fundamental obstacle. |
Thanks Zed.
That's interesting, however I think it’s rather optimistic. If the EU were happy to allow free movement of qualified workers only then surely there are going to be a lot of countries within the EU and the extended framework who would want the same thing? I think it would be seen by many as rewarding the UK for leaving which they could never allow.
So given the above and the fact that the EU won’t in my opinion allow that type of freedom of movement the Labour position is unworkable unless they go for full freedom of movement in which case what’s the point in leaving at all if we are still in the customs union and single market?
This is the crux of the issue, the Tories are rubbish and May’s deal is terrible but Labour can’t continually push a deal which is totally unworkable just because they say it’s workable. It’s lying to themselves at best, lying to the public at worst.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 20:09 - Mar 15 with 1299 views | ZedRodgers |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 16:06 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
Thanks Zed.
That's interesting, however I think it’s rather optimistic. If the EU were happy to allow free movement of qualified workers only then surely there are going to be a lot of countries within the EU and the extended framework who would want the same thing? I think it would be seen by many as rewarding the UK for leaving which they could never allow.
So given the above and the fact that the EU won’t in my opinion allow that type of freedom of movement the Labour position is unworkable unless they go for full freedom of movement in which case what’s the point in leaving at all if we are still in the customs union and single market?
This is the crux of the issue, the Tories are rubbish and May’s deal is terrible but Labour can’t continually push a deal which is totally unworkable just because they say it’s workable. It’s lying to themselves at best, lying to the public at worst.
SB |
I understand that there are question marks over it and that at this stage ‘optimistic’ is probably the correct word.
Whether the EU would change their tune on Labour’s proposal or whether Labour would start backtracking on their manifesto wording as negotiations between the two take centre stage is obviously a bit of an unknown at the moment.
As somebody I think I can trust entirely in these circumstances, I would hope that Mr. Starmer has presented the EU with a full outline of their proposal and that the recent endorsements from the EU take into account all aspects of Labour’s position. It’s reassuring to hear positivity over it from the EU at the very least, given that Starmer himself has acknowledged in the past that alignment with the single market and freedom of movement were the two areas that would need further work. I can only assume that Starmer has raised the freedom of movement question in their meetings.
The alternative is accepting the EU’s four freedoms in return for full participation in the single market. I wouldn’t rule this out since “full participation” (not just full access) was weaved into party policy by the unions at conference. The trouble with being so democratic is that u-turns in between manifestos following conference is invevitable!
I hope that the above doesn’t come across as delusional blind faith because it’s as much of a grey area for me as it is for anyone at this stage. Happy to admit that.
I also accept that it’s much easier for Labour with their deal lurking in the background like this and that what they’re proposing would certainly not be considered a ‘real Brexit’ by some. | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 21:33 - Mar 15 with 1267 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 15:50 - Mar 15 by No9 |
Do you accept that in the time taken to get nowhere on this matter that of the 37% of the elctorate who voted to leave any number may no longer be with us & any number may have changed their mind?
Do you also accept that there were many who could not vote then e.g. age or government restrictions, who may now be able to vote and who may not want to leave the EU
Where does that leave the statement 'the will of the people'?
It is nearly 3 years on & a lot has changed - do you deny these people the right? |
Bit of a silly case to make, you could say the same thing in six months, three or six years. You could keep putting that arguement forward until you got your way. In much the same way the SNP will do until they get the result they want, Scottish independence.
The real wheeler dealing hasn't started yet . A trade deal would be completed. a lot sooner with a no deal Brexit, Leave under May's deal and no incentive for an early settlement. | |
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| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 23:26 - Mar 15 with 1250 views | Herbivore |
| Really confused now - Zed said they would push for a 2nd Referendum on 21:33 - Mar 15 by Pinewoodblue |
Bit of a silly case to make, you could say the same thing in six months, three or six years. You could keep putting that arguement forward until you got your way. In much the same way the SNP will do until they get the result they want, Scottish independence.
The real wheeler dealing hasn't started yet . A trade deal would be completed. a lot sooner with a no deal Brexit, Leave under May's deal and no incentive for an early settlement. |
Yeah, when they see our economy going to sh!t they'll come running with a free trade agreement I'm sure. |  |
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