| A Brexit Solution 16:26 - Mar 17 with 4976 views | connorscontract |
It's democratic, and doesn't break The Good Friday Agreement.
England and Wales voted to Leave.
Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to Remain.
So, England and Wales Leave. Scotland and Northern Ireland Remain. The Border on the island of Ireland stays open. The border between Northern Ireland and Scotland (and therefore the UK) remains open. The Belfast-Stranraer ferry remains border-free.
It would require the EU to make an exception on trade between Scotland and England, Wales and Northern Ireland etc, and allow zero tariffs on trade between them.
Scotland and Northern Ireland to continue to elect MEPs, and contribute to the EU budget each year. EU Law, and European Supreme Court, to continue to have primacy in those nations.
In terms of the numbers: this deal would gain the support of all the SNP MPs. May would be home and dry.
It's obviously very, very late in the day, but if this had been suggested at the beginning of the Article 50 process would it have been a possible solution? |  | | |  |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:43 - Mar 17 with 1040 views | Trequartista |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:40 - Mar 17 by WeWereZombies |
Are you sure the referendum votes are traceable to age and sex? That makes the accusations of Russian vote rigging even more palpable... |
I imagine it was opinion polling, but the fact is it was not a referendum by constituent country. You cannot revise results under different rules. Had the electorate known that it would be a vote for Scotland or a vote for Wales they may have voted differently. |  |
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| A Brexit Solution on 19:50 - Mar 17 with 1023 views | connorscontract |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:35 - Mar 17 by Trequartista |
You can trace it to anything - age, sex, people who voted before 11:30, ... it is of interest, but of no relevance because it was not a constituency or electoral college vote.
And anyway it breaks up the UK, horrendous idea. |
You genuinely don't think that how Northern Ireland voted on this issue is of any relevance to what happens next?
And what you are talking there are opinion polls carried out after the event asking a sample of people how they voted. The more specific the criteria, the smaller the subset within the sample, and the less accurate the picture given. I am talking about the votes counted on the night of the Referendum by Local Authority tellers. We know 100% how people with valid ballot papers voted in different nations and regions.
But the surprise is that you think it is irrelevant. When talking about the practicalities of a vote to leave the EU (not the EEC, the Customs Union, the trading bloc, but the Parliamentary and Judicial Union) it makes quite a difference if the proposed solution involves breaking an internationally brokered Bi-Lateral deal with a friendly neighbouring state, and putting at risk the safety and security of one of the home nations. Especially if that home nation voted against this change to their citizenship status, and the Bi Lateral Treaty says that changes to their citizenship status can only happen if they vote for it. | | | |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:51 - Mar 17 with 1020 views | WeWereZombies |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:43 - Mar 17 by Trequartista |
I imagine it was opinion polling, but the fact is it was not a referendum by constituent country. You cannot revise results under different rules. Had the electorate known that it would be a vote for Scotland or a vote for Wales they may have voted differently. |
Well, firstly we are talking about Scotland and Northern Ireland - which both have specific issues arising out of the referendum. But I don't think the possibility of the break up of the United Kingdom would have made much difference to the average English or Welsh voter, it always seem very remote to them when I mention it. |  |
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| A Brexit Solution on 19:55 - Mar 17 with 1009 views | connorscontract |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:31 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE |
Good point in your first paragraph.
I agree on the hope for a remain victory in a second referendum and hoping the GFA is honoured.
I can't agree with the point about the English majority dictating to the other home nations though. The UK has a population of roughly 66,000,000. Roughly 55,000,000 of those are based in England. I appreciate the position Scotland are in but they are simultaneously complaining that the much larger country are dictating to them while they are also complaining about how they can't dictate to us. Sturgeon told Cameron to set a rule that all 4 home nations had to vote for Brexit for it to happen. She was happy to dictate to England but it's a real problem when it's the other way around.
I feel for Scotland. They deserve to make their own rules and decide their own fate but it's part of being in a wider union to go with the majority. We don't get everything we want in the EU based on the same principle. |
The point about the English majority dictating is secondarily about Scotland. That is how Brexit will be viewed, and it will fuel Scottish Nationalism, and risk the break up of the Union.
It is primarily about Northern Ireland, and the history of British (usually English) Home Secretaries from Parties who NI voters didn't vote for, dictating what happens in NI. The GFA was supposed to end this, and explicitly states that changes to citizenship status of people in NI should only be made following the approval by popular vote of the people of NI. | | | |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:58 - Mar 17 with 998 views | footers |
Big Bazza and Craig Shakespeare know dealing on WTO terms is best for Britain. Just look at his cheeky grin at those faceless, shameless EU Buereaucrats....
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| A Brexit Solution on 19:58 - Mar 17 with 999 views | Trequartista |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:50 - Mar 17 by connorscontract |
You genuinely don't think that how Northern Ireland voted on this issue is of any relevance to what happens next?
And what you are talking there are opinion polls carried out after the event asking a sample of people how they voted. The more specific the criteria, the smaller the subset within the sample, and the less accurate the picture given. I am talking about the votes counted on the night of the Referendum by Local Authority tellers. We know 100% how people with valid ballot papers voted in different nations and regions.
But the surprise is that you think it is irrelevant. When talking about the practicalities of a vote to leave the EU (not the EEC, the Customs Union, the trading bloc, but the Parliamentary and Judicial Union) it makes quite a difference if the proposed solution involves breaking an internationally brokered Bi-Lateral deal with a friendly neighbouring state, and putting at risk the safety and security of one of the home nations. Especially if that home nation voted against this change to their citizenship status, and the Bi Lateral Treaty says that changes to their citizenship status can only happen if they vote for it. |
As I said elsewhere, had the election been defined as a constituent country vote, the results may have been different, you cannot revise results with different rules, otherwise we can now celebrate our 1974-75 title win on 3 points for a win and goal difference.
So country voting is interesting, but not relevant. | |
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| A Brexit Solution on 19:59 - Mar 17 with 997 views | J2BLUE |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:55 - Mar 17 by connorscontract |
The point about the English majority dictating is secondarily about Scotland. That is how Brexit will be viewed, and it will fuel Scottish Nationalism, and risk the break up of the Union.
It is primarily about Northern Ireland, and the history of British (usually English) Home Secretaries from Parties who NI voters didn't vote for, dictating what happens in NI. The GFA was supposed to end this, and explicitly states that changes to citizenship status of people in NI should only be made following the approval by popular vote of the people of NI. |
I'm with you on NI.
I'm not with you on Scotland. Are we going to risk the break up of the union every time there is something Scotland doesn't like? Do we pander to the less than 10% of the UK which is Scotland? Eventually we have to have some common sense and think it might be better for them and us if they do take independence. I realise you don't want that but either they are unfairly dictated to by England or they unfairly dictate to the rest of the UK.
Do you have a solution? Anything which isn't just backing down to them all the time because we're terrified of them leaving? That isn't a healthy relationship. |  |
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| A Brexit Solution on 20:31 - Mar 17 with 979 views | connorscontract |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:59 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE |
I'm with you on NI.
I'm not with you on Scotland. Are we going to risk the break up of the union every time there is something Scotland doesn't like? Do we pander to the less than 10% of the UK which is Scotland? Eventually we have to have some common sense and think it might be better for them and us if they do take independence. I realise you don't want that but either they are unfairly dictated to by England or they unfairly dictate to the rest of the UK.
Do you have a solution? Anything which isn't just backing down to them all the time because we're terrified of them leaving? That isn't a healthy relationship. |
I opened with a solution!
The other solution is to have a second referendum and for Remain to poll more votes than Leave did last time, and to win with a bigger vote share, and bigger majority.
The reason I don't think it is pandering to Scotland is that Scottish IndyRef1 was won by the unionists on a promise that EU membership was a guarantee of an honest broker above the English majority to guarantee Scotland's devolved status and workers rights etc that there were fears an English Tory Govt could erode.
The appeal to Scottish voters from the Govt was couched largely in these terms: distinct nations with maximum devolution, as part of a strong union, in a progressive Europe. So the Scottish people have been sold a lie, and the whole Brexit project is seen by many in Scotland as being an act of bad faith.
Just as with Northern Ireland, there is history at play here. It's not just what is done, it's how things are perceived. And the whole Brexit project does nothing to increase Scottish trust in the British Government, nor alter the perception that they are ultimately not in control of their own future, and are merely pawns in a Tory game. | | | |
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| A Brexit Solution on 21:48 - Mar 17 with 956 views | Oxford_Blue |
So you ignore the strongly held wishes of 1.5m people in Northern Ireland?
Good luck with that. You’d cause civil war. | | | |
| A Brexit Solution on 21:54 - Mar 17 with 950 views | footers |
| A Brexit Solution on 21:48 - Mar 17 by Oxford_Blue |
So you ignore the strongly held wishes of 1.5m people in Northern Ireland?
Good luck with that. You’d cause civil war. |
Do you want to apologise for your horrific comment the other night? | |
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| A Brexit Solution on 22:22 - Mar 17 with 925 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| A Brexit Solution on 18:38 - Mar 17 by connorscontract |
Um, I'm not proposing a Customs Union, in this case. I'm proposing a negotiated free trade area between England/Wales and Scotland/Northern Ireland. An exception to the norm.
And I don't think you've read The Good Friday Agreement. It doesn't say anything about borders between Northern Ireland and England. It solely talks about relationships and institutions in Northern Ireland and Eire, and between Eire and the UK Government.
The lack of a border between Northern Ireland and Scotland isn't irrelevant in current Brexit discussions as the DUP is adamant that there shouldn't be a border between Northern Ireland and the UK. To have an open border with Ireland, but passport control on a flight from Belfast to the UK makes Northern Ireland feel more Irish than British. The trick of the GFA, as I said, is to make Northern Ireland feel Irish to Nationalists and British to Loyalists, and a Hard Border with Ireland threatens the first, a border between Northern Ireland and mainland Great Britain threatens the second. My solution fudges this for the Loyalists, and is very acceptable to Nationalists. |
So your premise is that the IRA terrorists are stupid enough to think that if they remain tied to an independent Scotland alongside the Republic of Ireland they are actually tied to the UK.
The GFA may not specifically state no border between Northern Ireland and England (I am not going to look through it to check the detail) but it is clear that is one of the major problems the Unionists have with the current deal and your idea is the same except you suggest Scotland go with them.
It may suit the Scottish Nationalist party but how does it sound that you are ignoring the result of the Scottish independence referendum in order to attempt to enact the Brexit one? Dismantling the union in order to pretend the union with Northern Ireland still existed is crass.
And if your argument is that the EU would effectively keep part of the UK (Scotland and N Ireland) in the EU while letting Wales and England leave, I think they would be insistent on official separation of the union. |  |
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| A Brexit Solution on 08:36 - Mar 18 with 891 views | Darth_Koont |
| A Brexit Solution on 22:22 - Mar 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So your premise is that the IRA terrorists are stupid enough to think that if they remain tied to an independent Scotland alongside the Republic of Ireland they are actually tied to the UK.
The GFA may not specifically state no border between Northern Ireland and England (I am not going to look through it to check the detail) but it is clear that is one of the major problems the Unionists have with the current deal and your idea is the same except you suggest Scotland go with them.
It may suit the Scottish Nationalist party but how does it sound that you are ignoring the result of the Scottish independence referendum in order to attempt to enact the Brexit one? Dismantling the union in order to pretend the union with Northern Ireland still existed is crass.
And if your argument is that the EU would effectively keep part of the UK (Scotland and N Ireland) in the EU while letting Wales and England leave, I think they would be insistent on official separation of the union. |
"Dismantling the union in order to pretend the union with Northern Ireland still existed is crass."
We effectively removed the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic while maintaining the integrity of the UK. So I don't really see the difference if a nominal customs border is created between Scotland and England.
I think the plan is far-fetched because of the emotions involved. But it's certainly logical enough as a solution. |  |
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| A Brexit Solution on 10:16 - Mar 18 with 871 views | Oxford_Blue |
| A Brexit Solution on 21:54 - Mar 17 by footers |
Do you want to apologise for your horrific comment the other night? |
I don’t understand. What comment was that? | | | |
| A Brexit Solution on 12:11 - Mar 18 with 849 views | Leaky |
| A Brexit Solution on 19:59 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE |
I'm with you on NI.
I'm not with you on Scotland. Are we going to risk the break up of the union every time there is something Scotland doesn't like? Do we pander to the less than 10% of the UK which is Scotland? Eventually we have to have some common sense and think it might be better for them and us if they do take independence. I realise you don't want that but either they are unfairly dictated to by England or they unfairly dictate to the rest of the UK.
Do you have a solution? Anything which isn't just backing down to them all the time because we're terrified of them leaving? That isn't a healthy relationship. |
Also re Scotland probably more Scots live in England than live in Scotland. My neighbour could not vote in the Scottish Independence vote because he lived in England. He's in the RAF and was posted here. |  | | |
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