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A Brexit Solution 16:26 - Mar 17 with 4952 viewsconnorscontract

It's democratic, and doesn't break The Good Friday Agreement.

England and Wales voted to Leave.

Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to Remain.

So, England and Wales Leave. Scotland and Northern Ireland Remain. The Border on the island of Ireland stays open. The border between Northern Ireland and Scotland (and therefore the UK) remains open. The Belfast-Stranraer ferry remains border-free.

It would require the EU to make an exception on trade between Scotland and England, Wales and Northern Ireland etc, and allow zero tariffs on trade between them.

Scotland and Northern Ireland to continue to elect MEPs, and contribute to the EU budget each year. EU Law, and European Supreme Court, to continue to have primacy in those nations.

In terms of the numbers: this deal would gain the support of all the SNP MPs. May would be home and dry.

It's obviously very, very late in the day, but if this had been suggested at the beginning of the Article 50 process would it have been a possible solution?
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A Brexit Solution on 16:30 - Mar 17 with 3888 viewsjeera

"... and contribute to the EU budget "?

Not sure that would be much of a contribution?

But surely the border situation England/Scotland would be then exactly the same as a potential border of NI/England would anyway.

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A Brexit Solution on 16:38 - Mar 17 with 3865 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 16:30 - Mar 17 by jeera

"... and contribute to the EU budget "?

Not sure that would be much of a contribution?

But surely the border situation England/Scotland would be then exactly the same as a potential border of NI/England would anyway.


Northern Ireland would qualify for a net rebate, probably, and maybe Scotland, too.

Re border, yes, but:

a) see my point about EU having to make it a special exception

but even if they didn't

b) there is no Good Friday Agreement between Edinburgh and London. It's not the fact that there is a border between the UK and EU that's the problem, it's the fact that it is between Eire and Northern Ireland, when The Good Friday Agreement enabled a quantum solution where Northern Ireland is to all intents and purposes pretty much in Ireland to somebody in the Nationalist community (being born there qualifies you for an Irish passport, abolition of RUC and other symbols of the old order), but is also completely part of the UK to Loyalists.

It's too late now, and not what I would want, but I believe it could have been a solution.
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A Brexit Solution on 16:42 - Mar 17 with 3854 viewsJ2BLUE

You don't think the SNP support would be offset by other MPs?

Truly impaired.
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A Brexit Solution on 16:44 - Mar 17 with 3857 viewsSarge

If I have to be dragged out of the EU because of what the likes of the people of Lowestoft want then Scotland should be no exception. I don’t live in Lowestoft.

The individual citizens that wanted to leave can simply lose their EU status and the rest of us can continue living in the 21st century. Frankly I’m a bit miffed that Scotland affords free education to everyone in the EU except England, Wales and NI so about time they had something not go their way.
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A Brexit Solution on 16:48 - Mar 17 with 3827 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 16:44 - Mar 17 by Sarge

If I have to be dragged out of the EU because of what the likes of the people of Lowestoft want then Scotland should be no exception. I don’t live in Lowestoft.

The individual citizens that wanted to leave can simply lose their EU status and the rest of us can continue living in the 21st century. Frankly I’m a bit miffed that Scotland affords free education to everyone in the EU except England, Wales and NI so about time they had something not go their way.


I feel the same way. Just surprised nobody has thought of this. Rees-Mogg and co wouldn't have needed to offshore to Dublin, could have just needed to open an office in Edinburgh.

There's an easy solution to the Scottish Uni Fees thing though. Just take a year out working in Scotland. As long you don't move to Scotland for Higher Education then your residency would count.

Seriously, young TWTDers, read the small print and save yourself 30 odd grand.
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A Brexit Solution on 16:52 - Mar 17 with 3803 viewsJ2BLUE

A Brexit Solution on 16:48 - Mar 17 by connorscontract

I feel the same way. Just surprised nobody has thought of this. Rees-Mogg and co wouldn't have needed to offshore to Dublin, could have just needed to open an office in Edinburgh.

There's an easy solution to the Scottish Uni Fees thing though. Just take a year out working in Scotland. As long you don't move to Scotland for Higher Education then your residency would count.

Seriously, young TWTDers, read the small print and save yourself 30 odd grand.


No one has thought of it because it's not a good idea and has plenty of flaws which you either haven't thought of or have ignored.

Truly impaired.
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A Brexit Solution on 16:52 - Mar 17 with 3804 viewsLord_Lucan

A Brexit Solution on 16:44 - Mar 17 by Sarge

If I have to be dragged out of the EU because of what the likes of the people of Lowestoft want then Scotland should be no exception. I don’t live in Lowestoft.

The individual citizens that wanted to leave can simply lose their EU status and the rest of us can continue living in the 21st century. Frankly I’m a bit miffed that Scotland affords free education to everyone in the EU except England, Wales and NI so about time they had something not go their way.


You make some good points there.

In many ways it's a shame we can't have the option to individually remain an EU citizen. The first thing I did after the result was to ask Mother if I had any Irish connection.

Alas not.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 19:15]

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A Brexit Solution on 16:53 - Mar 17 with 3800 viewsbluejacko

Except it was a vote UK wide not individual countries!but there the penny on that one has never really dropped has it?
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A Brexit Solution on 16:56 - Mar 17 with 3783 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Your mistake is in thinking this does not break the Good Friday agreement.

A soft border between N Ireland and a then independent Scotland is irrelevant. The Good Friday agreement was a compromise that prevented both further integration of the Republic and the North with separation from England. This "solution" would do exactly that and would be the same as the on-going backstop arrangement to all intents and purposes.

EDIT: Of course, on further reading you are actually arguing the case for England and Wales remaining in the customs union. This is the Labour solution. It does not require any change to the status of N Ireland or Scotland as part of the union - that would unnecessarily inflame the IRA. Instead, it does require us still paying the EU fees just without any voting rights. It is effectively leave in name only - sacrifice all our democratic say that the leave campaign argued we never had anyway while keeping everything else the same.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 17:08]

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A Brexit Solution on 16:56 - Mar 17 with 3781 viewsSarge

A Brexit Solution on 16:52 - Mar 17 by Lord_Lucan

You make some good points there.

In many ways it's a shame we can't have the option to individually remain an EU citizen. The first thing I did after the result was to ask Mother if I had any Irish connection.

Alas not.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 19:15]


My mum traced the family tree back to somewhere in the 17th century, not a drop of foreign blood - bloody homebodies
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A Brexit Solution on 16:57 - Mar 17 with 3767 viewsJ2BLUE

A Brexit Solution on 16:56 - Mar 17 by Sarge

My mum traced the family tree back to somewhere in the 17th century, not a drop of foreign blood - bloody homebodies


*goes to get a German passport*

Truly impaired.
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A Brexit Solution on 18:38 - Mar 17 with 3674 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 16:56 - Mar 17 by Nthsuffolkblue

Your mistake is in thinking this does not break the Good Friday agreement.

A soft border between N Ireland and a then independent Scotland is irrelevant. The Good Friday agreement was a compromise that prevented both further integration of the Republic and the North with separation from England. This "solution" would do exactly that and would be the same as the on-going backstop arrangement to all intents and purposes.

EDIT: Of course, on further reading you are actually arguing the case for England and Wales remaining in the customs union. This is the Labour solution. It does not require any change to the status of N Ireland or Scotland as part of the union - that would unnecessarily inflame the IRA. Instead, it does require us still paying the EU fees just without any voting rights. It is effectively leave in name only - sacrifice all our democratic say that the leave campaign argued we never had anyway while keeping everything else the same.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 17:08]


Um, I'm not proposing a Customs Union, in this case. I'm proposing a negotiated free trade area between England/Wales and Scotland/Northern Ireland. An exception to the norm.

And I don't think you've read The Good Friday Agreement. It doesn't say anything about borders between Northern Ireland and England. It solely talks about relationships and institutions in Northern Ireland and Eire, and between Eire and the UK Government.

The lack of a border between Northern Ireland and Scotland isn't irrelevant in current Brexit discussions as the DUP is adamant that there shouldn't be a border between Northern Ireland and the UK. To have an open border with Ireland, but passport control on a flight from Belfast to the UK makes Northern Ireland feel more Irish than British. The trick of the GFA, as I said, is to make Northern Ireland feel Irish to Nationalists and British to Loyalists, and a Hard Border with Ireland threatens the first, a border between Northern Ireland and mainland Great Britain threatens the second. My solution fudges this for the Loyalists, and is very acceptable to Nationalists.
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A Brexit Solution on 18:43 - Mar 17 with 3667 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 16:42 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE

You don't think the SNP support would be offset by other MPs?


No, I don't. But who knows?

I hope there is a second vote, and that more than 19 million people vote Remain.

But, failing that, my priority is that The Good Friday Agreement is honoured, that the DUP stops holding the Government to ransom and that Arlene Foster is forced to take responsibility for the Renewables Scandal, so that Stormont can be re-constituted.
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A Brexit Solution on 18:48 - Mar 17 with 3656 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 16:52 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE

No one has thought of it because it's not a good idea and has plenty of flaws which you either haven't thought of or have ignored.


And which you haven't listed. Go on.

The EU's opening negotiating position was for Northern Ireland to remain in the Customs Union.

The Good Friday Agreement states that all matters of citizenship or sovereignty regarding Northern Ireland should be taken through a popular vote. Northern Ireland voted Remain.
This honours that.

Scotland voted Remain. This honours that.

England and Wales voted Leave. This honours that.

Go ahead and name the flaws.
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A Brexit Solution on 18:49 - Mar 17 with 3651 viewsJ2BLUE

A Brexit Solution on 18:43 - Mar 17 by connorscontract

No, I don't. But who knows?

I hope there is a second vote, and that more than 19 million people vote Remain.

But, failing that, my priority is that The Good Friday Agreement is honoured, that the DUP stops holding the Government to ransom and that Arlene Foster is forced to take responsibility for the Renewables Scandal, so that Stormont can be re-constituted.


Your idea wouldn't work. One of the things about Brexit is that people want to fully control our own borders. You and I might not care about free movement but it was part of the leave vote. Your idea means we need a border between Scotland and England which is never going to happen or EU nationals will be able to travel to Scotland and simply drive down into England. That's one major problem.

Another major problem is London. If there is an exception for Scotland we are going to see London kick off big time. Greater London has a bigger population than Scotland. If an exception can be made for Scotland then why not for London? If a border with England is irrelevant then why can't London also stay in the EU? It's not at all practical. Your idea is ok in theory but it would never work.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 18:54]

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A Brexit Solution on 18:54 - Mar 17 with 3632 viewsWeWereZombies

Very neat except for one thing - it's the Belfast to Cairnryan ferry these days.

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A Brexit Solution on 19:13 - Mar 17 with 3591 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 18:49 - Mar 17 by J2BLUE

Your idea wouldn't work. One of the things about Brexit is that people want to fully control our own borders. You and I might not care about free movement but it was part of the leave vote. Your idea means we need a border between Scotland and England which is never going to happen or EU nationals will be able to travel to Scotland and simply drive down into England. That's one major problem.

Another major problem is London. If there is an exception for Scotland we are going to see London kick off big time. Greater London has a bigger population than Scotland. If an exception can be made for Scotland then why not for London? If a border with England is irrelevant then why can't London also stay in the EU? It's not at all practical. Your idea is ok in theory but it would never work.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2019 18:54]


If we leave without a hard border in the island of Ireland then EU nationals can drive across, then pick up the ferry from Belfast to either Liverpool or Stranraer. Or just stay in Northern Ireland. So we haven't retaken control of our borders. So my proposal is no worse than that on that score.

Or if we leave with a hard border in the island of Ireland then we break The Good Friday Agreement when we rebuild roadblocks at the border ("Security Installations" in the words of the GFA) and the IRA breaks the GFA when they bomb them.

The logical conclusion of Brexit is that Scotland will have IndyRef2, and probably Leave having been dictated to by the English on Brexit.

Northern Ireland will see a further breakdown in relationships between the two communities, having been dictated to by the English on Brexit. The Power Sharing Executive will continue to be suspended and usurped by direct rule by an English Tory Northern Ireland Secretary who has recently politically interfered in the legal process around prosecutions re Bloody Sunday etc. I am very pessimistic about where this will leave us.

For these reasons, I hope we have a Second Referendum, and that more people vote Remain than voted Leave last time. But if not, I believe a solution needs to be found that doesn't involve the English majority dictating to other home nations, because that can only lead to a rise in nationalism in those nations, with the break up of the union highly likely on the one hand, and a return to violence highly likely on the other.
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A Brexit Solution on 19:14 - Mar 17 with 3587 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 18:54 - Mar 17 by WeWereZombies

Very neat except for one thing - it's the Belfast to Cairnryan ferry these days.


Lol! Bloody Google Maps!
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A Brexit Solution on 19:19 - Mar 17 with 3576 viewsTrequartista

Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't vote to remain. There were no national votes, constituencies or electoral colleges involved. It is as valid as saying people with orange hair voted to remain.

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A Brexit Solution on 19:23 - Mar 17 with 3557 viewsWeWereZombies

A Brexit Solution on 19:19 - Mar 17 by Trequartista

Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't vote to remain. There were no national votes, constituencies or electoral colleges involved. It is as valid as saying people with orange hair voted to remain.


Except that the vote was traceable down to individual constituencies and easily allocated to individual nations so everybody, apart from you, was able to see that Scotland, Northern Ireland and, how could you forget them, Gibraltar clearly had a majority of voters wishing to Remain in the European Union.

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A Brexit Solution on 19:31 - Mar 17 with 3536 viewsJ2BLUE

A Brexit Solution on 19:13 - Mar 17 by connorscontract

If we leave without a hard border in the island of Ireland then EU nationals can drive across, then pick up the ferry from Belfast to either Liverpool or Stranraer. Or just stay in Northern Ireland. So we haven't retaken control of our borders. So my proposal is no worse than that on that score.

Or if we leave with a hard border in the island of Ireland then we break The Good Friday Agreement when we rebuild roadblocks at the border ("Security Installations" in the words of the GFA) and the IRA breaks the GFA when they bomb them.

The logical conclusion of Brexit is that Scotland will have IndyRef2, and probably Leave having been dictated to by the English on Brexit.

Northern Ireland will see a further breakdown in relationships between the two communities, having been dictated to by the English on Brexit. The Power Sharing Executive will continue to be suspended and usurped by direct rule by an English Tory Northern Ireland Secretary who has recently politically interfered in the legal process around prosecutions re Bloody Sunday etc. I am very pessimistic about where this will leave us.

For these reasons, I hope we have a Second Referendum, and that more people vote Remain than voted Leave last time. But if not, I believe a solution needs to be found that doesn't involve the English majority dictating to other home nations, because that can only lead to a rise in nationalism in those nations, with the break up of the union highly likely on the one hand, and a return to violence highly likely on the other.


Good point in your first paragraph.

I agree on the hope for a remain victory in a second referendum and hoping the GFA is honoured.

I can't agree with the point about the English majority dictating to the other home nations though. The UK has a population of roughly 66,000,000. Roughly 55,000,000 of those are based in England. I appreciate the position Scotland are in but they are simultaneously complaining that the much larger country are dictating to them while they are also complaining about how they can't dictate to us. Sturgeon told Cameron to set a rule that all 4 home nations had to vote for Brexit for it to happen. She was happy to dictate to England but it's a real problem when it's the other way around.

I feel for Scotland. They deserve to make their own rules and decide their own fate but it's part of being in a wider union to go with the majority. We don't get everything we want in the EU based on the same principle.

Truly impaired.
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A Brexit Solution on 19:32 - Mar 17 with 3541 viewsconnorscontract

A Brexit Solution on 19:19 - Mar 17 by Trequartista

Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't vote to remain. There were no national votes, constituencies or electoral colleges involved. It is as valid as saying people with orange hair voted to remain.


Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union. Because it wasn't on the ballot paper. But we are where we are. If we just Leave the EU, but remain in everything else, then we will have a solution.

It is nothing like your ridiculous "orange hair" straw man, because the votes were counted by Local Authority tellers, and reported by constituency as votes came in, so we do know how nations and regions voted.

The deal is currently held up by the intricacies of cross-border relations in Northern Ireland and the Government is currently propped up by a Loyalist Party, including MPs who publicly called for armed resistance against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the precursor to the GFA.

So, yes, Scotland voted to Remain, and the English dictating against that will fuel Scottish nationalism. And Northern Ireland voted to Remain, and The Good Friday Agreement is currently broken and in danger of being trampled along with the will of the people there, with the connivance of the DUP, with whom May is in a bizarre abusive co-dependent relationship.
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A Brexit Solution on 19:35 - Mar 17 with 3526 viewsTrequartista

A Brexit Solution on 19:23 - Mar 17 by WeWereZombies

Except that the vote was traceable down to individual constituencies and easily allocated to individual nations so everybody, apart from you, was able to see that Scotland, Northern Ireland and, how could you forget them, Gibraltar clearly had a majority of voters wishing to Remain in the European Union.


You can trace it to anything - age, sex, people who voted before 11:30, ... it is of interest, but of no relevance because it was not a constituency or electoral college vote.

And anyway it breaks up the UK, horrendous idea.

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A Brexit Solution on 19:39 - Mar 17 with 3515 viewsTrequartista

A Brexit Solution on 19:32 - Mar 17 by connorscontract

Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union. Because it wasn't on the ballot paper. But we are where we are. If we just Leave the EU, but remain in everything else, then we will have a solution.

It is nothing like your ridiculous "orange hair" straw man, because the votes were counted by Local Authority tellers, and reported by constituency as votes came in, so we do know how nations and regions voted.

The deal is currently held up by the intricacies of cross-border relations in Northern Ireland and the Government is currently propped up by a Loyalist Party, including MPs who publicly called for armed resistance against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the precursor to the GFA.

So, yes, Scotland voted to Remain, and the English dictating against that will fuel Scottish nationalism. And Northern Ireland voted to Remain, and The Good Friday Agreement is currently broken and in danger of being trampled along with the will of the people there, with the connivance of the DUP, with whom May is in a bizarre abusive co-dependent relationship.


It's not a straw man because it illustrates the fact that you can break up the vote in any way you like, it wasn't a constituency vote. I can replace orange hair with age, if you want something that is known how people voted.

And why would we want to break up the UK like this?

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A Brexit Solution on 19:40 - Mar 17 with 3508 viewsWeWereZombies

A Brexit Solution on 19:35 - Mar 17 by Trequartista

You can trace it to anything - age, sex, people who voted before 11:30, ... it is of interest, but of no relevance because it was not a constituency or electoral college vote.

And anyway it breaks up the UK, horrendous idea.


Are you sure the referendum votes are traceable to age and sex? That makes the accusations of Russian vote rigging even more palpable...

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