| Corbyn you cretin.nm 19:35 - Mar 20 with 21511 views | giant_stow |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 00:22 - Mar 21 with 2373 views | Guthrum |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 22:51 - Mar 20 by footers |
How does that sit, democratically, with you though? The TIG were never voted in, don't have a manifesto and aren't an actual political party atm? They're a private company. None of whom saw fit to hold a by-election.
May as well have a Tory resign the whip and represent GlaxoSmithKline at that rate. |
Also, the private company thing is just a vehicle which allows them to organise funding, have bank accounts and the like. Setting up a political party is somewhat more complex, not just registration with the Commission, but also writing constitution and policy, organising grass-roots support, etc. |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 01:36 - Mar 21 with 2357 views | XYZ |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 00:22 - Mar 21 by Guthrum |
Also, the private company thing is just a vehicle which allows them to organise funding, have bank accounts and the like. Setting up a political party is somewhat more complex, not just registration with the Commission, but also writing constitution and policy, organising grass-roots support, etc. |
Not a party as recognised by the law, then. All MP's not following a whip or allegiance.
The invitation was a political point scoring exercise. At a time of national crisis.
Shameful at best. Corrupt most likely. The evidence is mounting. |  | | |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 05:59 - Mar 21 with 2320 views | caught-in-limbo |
Booo! Hisss! Booo!*
#EnjoyTheShow
*I have no idea what this thread is referring to exactly, but I guess it's about the pantomime production that's going on in Westminster at the moment.
Like I've been saying for a couple of years, it's all about creating chaos. They're all in it together. |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:33 - Mar 21 with 2296 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 00:13 - Mar 21 by Guthrum |
Actually, there are very few genuine Independents in the House at the moment - as opposed to MPs who have been suspended or expelled from their parties. Indeed, only one was elected after standing as such in 2017 (Sylvia Hermon, North Down, NI).
Three resigned the whip on matters of policy or principles (Frank Field, Ian Austin and Stephen Lloyd). The rest were all suspended (some subsequently resigned) or expelled over allegations of misconduct. |
I was being facetious with that one and was using it as an extension of my point about the Umunna/Rees-Mogg contradiction.
The point seems to be that leaders of “groupings within HoC” which represent votes were there. For that reason my point about Rees-Moss stands. He is more structurally a leader of a group within HoC than Umunna and represents more votes. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 7:16]
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:40 - Mar 21 with 2290 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:33 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
I was being facetious with that one and was using it as an extension of my point about the Umunna/Rees-Mogg contradiction.
The point seems to be that leaders of “groupings within HoC” which represent votes were there. For that reason my point about Rees-Moss stands. He is more structurally a leader of a group within HoC than Umunna and represents more votes. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 7:16]
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It's a meeting with May. Barely worth attending and then she apparently changes the terms of the meeting anyway.
Everything about her is shambolic, a waste of time and engineered to deflect from her/blame others.
But let's have 10 pages about Corbyn. |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:56 - Mar 21 with 2269 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:40 - Mar 21 by Darth_Koont |
It's a meeting with May. Barely worth attending and then she apparently changes the terms of the meeting anyway.
Everything about her is shambolic, a waste of time and engineered to deflect from her/blame others.
But let's have 10 pages about Corbyn. |
That is the underlying point. It wasn’t worth anybody attending, other than to have a cheap shot at Corbyn.
Yes, if he’d persevered and sat through her briefing then we wouldn’t have the ten pager and journalists setting themselves over it. I don’t hold it against him though really. I’m focused on the actual problem: Theresa May’s recklessness and negligence.
I suspect the issue Corbyn had with Umunna comes down to trust. Any actual discussion would have resulted in the breach of confidentiality, twisting of words and snidely misrepresentation that Chuka is now renowned for. If the Radio 4 headline wasn’t “Corbyn walks out” it was going to be something like “Umunna accuses Corbyn of...” | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:25 - Mar 21 with 2246 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:40 - Mar 21 by Darth_Koont |
It's a meeting with May. Barely worth attending and then she apparently changes the terms of the meeting anyway.
Everything about her is shambolic, a waste of time and engineered to deflect from her/blame others.
But let's have 10 pages about Corbyn. |
Mays speech was awful, to set the people against MPs like that is inviting trouble. Deeply irresponsible and I guess just shows what we have come to expect from this rubbish PM. She has lead us to ruin.
None of that means people can't criticise Corbyn for ridiculously childish behaviour. The press lobby were saying Labour knew the attendees during the afternoon so he knew he would be there, those terms weren't changed. It's highly unlikely he could have changed anything in Mays mind if he stayed but grandstanding like he did is unhelpful and deserves criticism which he is getting from all the fellow leaders.
Why are we not allowed to criticise both of them? It seems to be an either/or thing in here.
SB
Edit:. There is also a thread dedicated to her rubbish speech. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 7:30]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:35 - Mar 21 with 2229 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:56 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
That is the underlying point. It wasn’t worth anybody attending, other than to have a cheap shot at Corbyn.
Yes, if he’d persevered and sat through her briefing then we wouldn’t have the ten pager and journalists setting themselves over it. I don’t hold it against him though really. I’m focused on the actual problem: Theresa May’s recklessness and negligence.
I suspect the issue Corbyn had with Umunna comes down to trust. Any actual discussion would have resulted in the breach of confidentiality, twisting of words and snidely misrepresentation that Chuka is now renowned for. If the Radio 4 headline wasn’t “Corbyn walks out” it was going to be something like “Umunna accuses Corbyn of...” |
Right on cue.
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:36 - Mar 21 with 2227 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:25 - Mar 21 by StokieBlue |
Mays speech was awful, to set the people against MPs like that is inviting trouble. Deeply irresponsible and I guess just shows what we have come to expect from this rubbish PM. She has lead us to ruin.
None of that means people can't criticise Corbyn for ridiculously childish behaviour. The press lobby were saying Labour knew the attendees during the afternoon so he knew he would be there, those terms weren't changed. It's highly unlikely he could have changed anything in Mays mind if he stayed but grandstanding like he did is unhelpful and deserves criticism which he is getting from all the fellow leaders.
Why are we not allowed to criticise both of them? It seems to be an either/or thing in here.
SB
Edit:. There is also a thread dedicated to her rubbish speech. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 7:30]
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Because it's yet more whataboutery and another convenient deflection from holding May and the government to task. Which is THE issue — not a pointless meeting that May is only holding to then complain about everyone else.
The press lobby are a waste of space too. As big a part of the problem as the pointless politicians whose empty utterings they pick over as if it's news.
We've been here before with the first staged meeting in January where Corbyn initially got lambasted for not attending. But it's just more of the party games and point-scoring we keep being told is politics and political debate. | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:36 - Mar 21 with 2223 views | BloomBlue |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 06:56 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
That is the underlying point. It wasn’t worth anybody attending, other than to have a cheap shot at Corbyn.
Yes, if he’d persevered and sat through her briefing then we wouldn’t have the ten pager and journalists setting themselves over it. I don’t hold it against him though really. I’m focused on the actual problem: Theresa May’s recklessness and negligence.
I suspect the issue Corbyn had with Umunna comes down to trust. Any actual discussion would have resulted in the breach of confidentiality, twisting of words and snidely misrepresentation that Chuka is now renowned for. If the Radio 4 headline wasn’t “Corbyn walks out” it was going to be something like “Umunna accuses Corbyn of...” |
We agree then he didn't attend because of his personal self interest rather than for the potential good of the country. So the self styled 'I want a different politics from the old one of self interest' is actually the same as all of them |  | | |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:52 - Mar 21 with 2201 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:25 - Mar 21 by StokieBlue |
Mays speech was awful, to set the people against MPs like that is inviting trouble. Deeply irresponsible and I guess just shows what we have come to expect from this rubbish PM. She has lead us to ruin.
None of that means people can't criticise Corbyn for ridiculously childish behaviour. The press lobby were saying Labour knew the attendees during the afternoon so he knew he would be there, those terms weren't changed. It's highly unlikely he could have changed anything in Mays mind if he stayed but grandstanding like he did is unhelpful and deserves criticism which he is getting from all the fellow leaders.
Why are we not allowed to criticise both of them? It seems to be an either/or thing in here.
SB
Edit:. There is also a thread dedicated to her rubbish speech. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 7:30]
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It’s up to you Stokie. I don’t see them as equally worthy talking points. There was a negative Corbyn-shaped hole in the media which needed filling regardless.
It’s been framed as childish behaviour when it likely came down to trust and not engaging with May’s attempt to play people off in an attempt to secure enough votes for her deal without convincing Labour. Corbyn does not fit the petulant caricature that’s being painted, no matter how hard people try. May and Corbyn spoke later in the evening for longer than the ‘opposition talks’. It’s a non-story. | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:02 - Mar 21 with 2182 views | Herbivore |
I think it can be summed up thus:
- A non-leader of a non-party being invited to a party leader's meeting is rather odd. Anyone who thinks Chukka (why not Soubry? She's been the most vocal and prominent TiG member on Brexit imo) being invited was done for benign reasons is deluding themselves.
- That said, stropping off like Corbyn did when the country is in crisis was a dick move. Be the bigger man ffs. At the very least it's terrible optics.
- The meeting itself was pointless anyway, May was going through the motions and talking to herself. She is not willing to listen. As far as she is concerned it's an outrage that politicians won't simply unanimously vote for her deal and the only solution she is willing to countenance is them falling into line. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 8:07]
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:18 - Mar 21 with 2161 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:02 - Mar 21 by Herbivore |
I think it can be summed up thus:
- A non-leader of a non-party being invited to a party leader's meeting is rather odd. Anyone who thinks Chukka (why not Soubry? She's been the most vocal and prominent TiG member on Brexit imo) being invited was done for benign reasons is deluding themselves.
- That said, stropping off like Corbyn did when the country is in crisis was a dick move. Be the bigger man ffs. At the very least it's terrible optics.
- The meeting itself was pointless anyway, May was going through the motions and talking to herself. She is not willing to listen. As far as she is concerned it's an outrage that politicians won't simply unanimously vote for her deal and the only solution she is willing to countenance is them falling into line. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 8:07]
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Isn't Chuka the spokesman for the group? Those few votes matter at the moment and thus saying it's not a party isn't very helpful given our current situation.
Otherwise I think you've given a good assessment.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:24 - Mar 21 with 2153 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 07:52 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
It’s up to you Stokie. I don’t see them as equally worthy talking points. There was a negative Corbyn-shaped hole in the media which needed filling regardless.
It’s been framed as childish behaviour when it likely came down to trust and not engaging with May’s attempt to play people off in an attempt to secure enough votes for her deal without convincing Labour. Corbyn does not fit the petulant caricature that’s being painted, no matter how hard people try. May and Corbyn spoke later in the evening for longer than the ‘opposition talks’. It’s a non-story. |
How is it a trust issue Zed?
Labour and the press were apparently told the attendees mid-afternoon.
Didn't they speak post-statement by which time it was even more pointless than it may have been before?
May is entirely at fault for not listening but that doesn't mean Corbyn behaviour can't be criticised. Why do they need to be equally worthy? Minority issues would never be discussed if that was a valid criteria.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:25 - Mar 21 with 2150 views | Steve_M |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 21:34 - Mar 20 by footers |
I've waited all my voting life for anything close to an opportunity to vote in something close to a socialist party. Always voted Labour despite them not being that, but still being better than the Tories. Corbyn may be unpopular but his project (or at least large aspects of it) appeal to me.
Now, that probably puts a lot of centrists off.
This is a case for PR and feeling represented. Unfortunately, we held a PR vote which will likely be the last for a generation (as was promised). Voter disenfranchisement isn't just about the centrists - who we never tire of hearing about - but about everyone.
Labour will return to the centre, there'll never be any large-scale investment in the country, we'll have all the same old problems and then we're back to the good old Blair/Cameron years, when there was a decent economic tailwind and no one can be unhappy. Until they are again.
We've moved so far to the right that all this is now acceptable. If the majority don't agree with this, and they find that austerity has been helpful to them, then there's not much more we can do. Aside from to wait for it all to happen again, of course. |
"I've waited all my voting life for anything close to an opportunity to vote in something close to a socialist party. Always voted Labour despite them not being that, but still being better than the Tories. Corbyn may be unpopular but his project (or at least large aspects of it) appeal to me. "
But on this point, you would have far more chance of achieving that goal if the Labour Party wasn't lead by an incompetent with 40 years of baggage, surrounded by people who also have decades of baggage. |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:25 - Mar 21 with 2150 views | uefacup81 |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 20:59 - Mar 20 by Withnail |
John Bercow is going to look a right t1t next week too.
Happy days. [Post edited 20 Mar 2019 21:00]
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Is he?
As I understand it, nothing has been said about him changing his stance on MV3, and I've no reason to believe he won't stand his ground.
Unless he suddenly decides Erskine May is a load of old pish, the only person who's going to look a right t*t will be May when she tries to move MV3 and Bercow slaps her down, as he said he would. |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:27 - Mar 21 with 2147 views | Herbivore |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:18 - Mar 21 by StokieBlue |
Isn't Chuka the spokesman for the group? Those few votes matter at the moment and thus saying it's not a party isn't very helpful given our current situation.
Otherwise I think you've given a good assessment.
SB |
He's not their leader though, and it's not a party. And she knows she has zero chance of getting the TiG to vote for her deal, they've left the major parties in order to campaign for a second referendum. I have no doubt there was a motive behind inviting him that was not benign. But as I said, Corbyn comes out of it looking like a clown. | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:32 - Mar 21 with 2134 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:25 - Mar 21 by Steve_M |
"I've waited all my voting life for anything close to an opportunity to vote in something close to a socialist party. Always voted Labour despite them not being that, but still being better than the Tories. Corbyn may be unpopular but his project (or at least large aspects of it) appeal to me. "
But on this point, you would have far more chance of achieving that goal if the Labour Party wasn't lead by an incompetent with 40 years of baggage, surrounded by people who also have decades of baggage. |
Do you mean, if they were led by a non socialist again? |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:43 - Mar 21 with 2122 views | itfcjoe |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:27 - Mar 21 by Herbivore |
He's not their leader though, and it's not a party. And she knows she has zero chance of getting the TiG to vote for her deal, they've left the major parties in order to campaign for a second referendum. I have no doubt there was a motive behind inviting him that was not benign. But as I said, Corbyn comes out of it looking like a clown. |
Just another example of a terrible opposition failing to hold a terrible Govt to account.
Corbyn playing his own version of party politics, and managing to make a worse job of it than May. Sit in the meeting, try and contribute then make statement afterwards bout how she is not willing to listen etc etc.
Could even have pre prepared the speech as no surprise how meeting would go - but no, storm out because you don’t like Chukka and give everyone an easy sound bite and attack. Thick as absolute pig sh*t |  |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:57 - Mar 21 with 2096 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:43 - Mar 21 by itfcjoe |
Just another example of a terrible opposition failing to hold a terrible Govt to account.
Corbyn playing his own version of party politics, and managing to make a worse job of it than May. Sit in the meeting, try and contribute then make statement afterwards bout how she is not willing to listen etc etc.
Could even have pre prepared the speech as no surprise how meeting would go - but no, storm out because you don’t like Chukka and give everyone an easy sound bite and attack. Thick as absolute pig sh*t |
The "storming out" and petulant caricature being painted is an exaggeration completely concocted by the press and anti-Labour individuals. There is absolutely no reason to suggest otherwise.
The very same press and individuals that are trying to pin a breakdown in communication on Corbyn are completely ignoring the fact that May is proposing to bring the same deal back despite Bercow saying it's not possible. Everybody is completely glossing over this. Why is this?
It's beyond 'talking to a brick wall' - the people responsible for conveying reporting news to us are trying to listen to a brick wall and suggesting the breakdown in communication lies elsewhere. It's utterly insane. Is that not the key breakdown in communication? | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:08 - Mar 21 with 2079 views | PablosCousin |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:57 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
The "storming out" and petulant caricature being painted is an exaggeration completely concocted by the press and anti-Labour individuals. There is absolutely no reason to suggest otherwise.
The very same press and individuals that are trying to pin a breakdown in communication on Corbyn are completely ignoring the fact that May is proposing to bring the same deal back despite Bercow saying it's not possible. Everybody is completely glossing over this. Why is this?
It's beyond 'talking to a brick wall' - the people responsible for conveying reporting news to us are trying to listen to a brick wall and suggesting the breakdown in communication lies elsewhere. It's utterly insane. Is that not the key breakdown in communication? |
Perhaps the bottom line is he just IS petulant for walking out as most seem to agree on. You just can't seem to accept that. | | | |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:13 - Mar 21 with 2074 views | ZedRodgers |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:24 - Mar 21 by StokieBlue |
How is it a trust issue Zed?
Labour and the press were apparently told the attendees mid-afternoon.
Didn't they speak post-statement by which time it was even more pointless than it may have been before?
May is entirely at fault for not listening but that doesn't mean Corbyn behaviour can't be criticised. Why do they need to be equally worthy? Minority issues would never be discussed if that was a valid criteria.
SB |
Trust is something which is not compatible with Chuka Umunna. TIG have already made clear the condition on which they will support her deal (and avoid a general election), so what's the point? Why is anybody entertaining another Robbie Gibb PR stunt?
It's a fatuous non-story. The argument that he should have attended just so people didn't talk about him not attending is surreal. People are acknowledging the pointlessness of it whilst inferring that it's important. Are there not more pertinent points to make "at the time when we are facing a national crisis"? | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:15 - Mar 21 with 2069 views | itfcjoe |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:57 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
The "storming out" and petulant caricature being painted is an exaggeration completely concocted by the press and anti-Labour individuals. There is absolutely no reason to suggest otherwise.
The very same press and individuals that are trying to pin a breakdown in communication on Corbyn are completely ignoring the fact that May is proposing to bring the same deal back despite Bercow saying it's not possible. Everybody is completely glossing over this. Why is this?
It's beyond 'talking to a brick wall' - the people responsible for conveying reporting news to us are trying to listen to a brick wall and suggesting the breakdown in communication lies elsewhere. It's utterly insane. Is that not the key breakdown in communication? |
If it is about communication then why turn up then walk away? Why not just not turn up? | |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:16 - Mar 21 with 2066 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:13 - Mar 21 by ZedRodgers |
Trust is something which is not compatible with Chuka Umunna. TIG have already made clear the condition on which they will support her deal (and avoid a general election), so what's the point? Why is anybody entertaining another Robbie Gibb PR stunt?
It's a fatuous non-story. The argument that he should have attended just so people didn't talk about him not attending is surreal. People are acknowledging the pointlessness of it whilst inferring that it's important. Are there not more pertinent points to make "at the time when we are facing a national crisis"? |
So it's not a trust issue with regards to May now then and an appropriate response to questioning his walkout is an attack on Chuka's character?
This isn't the kinder politics Zed.
Guess this is one we disagree on.
SB [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 9:17]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 09:19 - Mar 21 with 2055 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn you cretin.nm on 08:25 - Mar 21 by uefacup81 |
Is he?
As I understand it, nothing has been said about him changing his stance on MV3, and I've no reason to believe he won't stand his ground.
Unless he suddenly decides Erskine May is a load of old pish, the only person who's going to look a right t*t will be May when she tries to move MV3 and Bercow slaps her down, as he said he would. |
I wonder who wins that standoff. | |
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