| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? 09:02 - Mar 27 with 4963 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Remain majority parliament.
Tories voting for tory deal if tory leader leaves.
Every time you do this 'x' you give away a bit more power/control. [Post edited 27 Mar 2019 9:02]
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:16 - Mar 27 with 4210 views | hampstead_blue |
I don't think any government truly works for the people.
They want to remain in power. That in itself puts short term gain at the head. Short term gain is a slippery slope.
Is there an answer when nature dictates that we are utility maximisers? I don't know. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:30 - Mar 27 with 4194 views | Guthrum |
... and every time you don't, you abdicate all influence whatsoever.
Remember, it's the (democratically elected) pro-Brexit ERG/DUP MPs who consistently rebelled and blocked the Withdrawal Agreement which was negotiated with the EU and would have seen us legally leave the bloc on Friday - not the Remainers.
Purely because, after a marginal democratic victory, they haven't got an outcome exactly in line with their hard-line viewpoint. |  |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:33 - Mar 27 with 4191 views | MJallday |
someone posted this on facebook earlier.
the things youll say to win an election.....
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:35 - Mar 27 with 4180 views | BloomBlue |
But isn't that the big positive of democracy it allows different opinions and views and they challenge each other, the other option being the North Korean model?
No model is perfect and in a democracy you ultimately have to make a decision which will upset some, but democracy gives you the opportunity to challenge. |  | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:43 - Mar 27 with 4158 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:30 - Mar 27 by Guthrum |
... and every time you don't, you abdicate all influence whatsoever.
Remember, it's the (democratically elected) pro-Brexit ERG/DUP MPs who consistently rebelled and blocked the Withdrawal Agreement which was negotiated with the EU and would have seen us legally leave the bloc on Friday - not the Remainers.
Purely because, after a marginal democratic victory, they haven't got an outcome exactly in line with their hard-line viewpoint. |
This isn't just about Brexit they are just the current examples......since when did voting anything but Tory in Suffolk count for anything for example. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:47 - Mar 27 with 4145 views | XYZ |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:33 - Mar 27 by MJallday |
someone posted this on facebook earlier.
the things youll say to win an election.....
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Why didn't the legislation provide for that then?
Why did none of the state-funded ERG loons argue for the legislation to provide for that?
Parliament legislated for an advisory vote and that's all it is. |  | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:49 - Mar 27 with 4129 views | pickles110564 |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:30 - Mar 27 by Guthrum |
... and every time you don't, you abdicate all influence whatsoever.
Remember, it's the (democratically elected) pro-Brexit ERG/DUP MPs who consistently rebelled and blocked the Withdrawal Agreement which was negotiated with the EU and would have seen us legally leave the bloc on Friday - not the Remainers.
Purely because, after a marginal democratic victory, they haven't got an outcome exactly in line with their hard-line viewpoint. |
Not quite true, how many remainer MP's voted for it? If this was the case it would have got through. |  | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:55 - Mar 27 with 4107 views | Guthrum |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:43 - Mar 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This isn't just about Brexit they are just the current examples......since when did voting anything but Tory in Suffolk count for anything for example. |
Since when did anybody do anything about that - getting off their arses to campaign, standing other candidates, forming other parties?
Even forcing the selection of better candidates by the existing parties (local associations have considerable powers). Just as Momentum has taken over parts of Labour, the same could be done to the Consevatives and the whole direction of the party changed.
Democracy has to be worked (even fought) for. If we simply take what we're handed on a plate, the portions will inevitably get smaller. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:58 - Mar 27 with 4097 views | CoachRob |
I guess this is classic thin democracy where passive citizens give politicians the right to impose their view on any given situation regardless of how people vote in referendums or even elections. |  | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:00 - Mar 27 with 4093 views | solemio |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:43 - Mar 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This isn't just about Brexit they are just the current examples......since when did voting anything but Tory in Suffolk count for anything for example. |
Ipswich is in Suffolk, I am reliably informed. | | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:06 - Mar 27 with 4087 views | Guthrum |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:49 - Mar 27 by pickles110564 |
Not quite true, how many remainer MP's voted for it? If this was the case it would have got through. |
By far the largest group among Tory rebels is the ERG and their allies, estimates are around 100 MPs. Would have been very close if they'd backed May, perhaps even got over the line with a few votes from pro-Brexit Labour Members. Certainly the second time, if not the first.
Without the evident chaos and infighting in the Conservative Party, more Labour MPs might have thought it worth their while backing the deal rather than trying to use it to bring the Government down. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:08 - Mar 27 with 4082 views | factual_blue |
We've never had direct democracy - where everybody takes part in making all the decisions.
We now have too complex a society, and too many people for that to work. We therefore pass on the responsibility to elected representatives. |  |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:15 - Mar 27 with 4065 views | Pendejo |
Agree and disagree.
Agree:
Whomever gets voted in the hierarchy of the Civil Service remains in place, and maybe , just maybe obfuscate genuinely innovative and decent plans to change the country.
[Thinks "Yes, Minister", "A Very British Coup" and "The Crown" - ok fiction but I wonder how far from reality they are]
Obviously you can't change the Civil Service lock stock and two smoking barrels.
Disagree:
We still have a freedom of speech, to protest and seemingly dozens of political parties. Monster Raving Loony party may be a bit of a sideshow but quite a few of their policies have not just been adopted but actually implemented [longer pub opening hours, dog passports].
I think there's just enough active democracy to keep us collectively under control. |  |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:29 - Mar 27 with 4038 views | MJallday |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:47 - Mar 27 by XYZ |
Why didn't the legislation provide for that then?
Why did none of the state-funded ERG loons argue for the legislation to provide for that?
Parliament legislated for an advisory vote and that's all it is. |
you're makign the fatal assumption that the people in charge know what they are saying/doing. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 11:07 - Mar 27 with 4000 views | factual_blue |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:15 - Mar 27 by Pendejo |
Agree and disagree.
Agree:
Whomever gets voted in the hierarchy of the Civil Service remains in place, and maybe , just maybe obfuscate genuinely innovative and decent plans to change the country.
[Thinks "Yes, Minister", "A Very British Coup" and "The Crown" - ok fiction but I wonder how far from reality they are]
Obviously you can't change the Civil Service lock stock and two smoking barrels.
Disagree:
We still have a freedom of speech, to protest and seemingly dozens of political parties. Monster Raving Loony party may be a bit of a sideshow but quite a few of their policies have not just been adopted but actually implemented [longer pub opening hours, dog passports].
I think there's just enough active democracy to keep us collectively under control. |
Civil Servants merely do what Ministers ask.
Sadly Ministers tend to have a poor grasp of reality. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 11:09 - Mar 27 with 3999 views | factual_blue |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:00 - Mar 27 by solemio |
Ipswich is in Suffolk, I am reliably informed. |
Unless it's in Queensland, Massachusetts,South Dakota or Wisconsin. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 13:58 - Mar 27 with 3953 views | No9 |
AGREED
What is the answer? | | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 17:46 - Mar 27 with 3919 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 13:58 - Mar 27 by No9 |
AGREED
What is the answer? |
Something like this......with a rolling rota of representative reporting wishes up and down the chain.
https://mesopotamia.coop/cooperatives-and-communes-the-third-way-of-rojava-in-th
But the real beating heart of the Kurdish revolution is the strategy of transition from the capitalist economic model to a new paradigm of social economy.
...and a bit of this too....
“We want 80% of our economy to be made up of co-operatives, but we don’t believe in a socialist model that prohibits private initiative. Our idea is that each person plays an active role in society, and the transformation has to happen step by step, with the participation of the people”, says Heval Rashid, co-president of the Department of Economy. In Kurdistan, two representatives, a man and a woman, are assigned to each public office, in a system of “co-presidency”.
Until three years ago no co-operatives existed in these areas except for some isolated and unpopular experiences linked to the Assad regime. Today, there are more than one hundred co-operatives in the Jazira canton, and they are multiplying at an astounding rate."
[Post edited 27 Mar 2019 17:49]
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 18:47 - Mar 27 with 3871 views | Lord_Lucan |
I can't think of any way in which this could have turned out worse.
I still want to remain but any deal such as Mays is going to be worse that anything you can imagine.
Complete in or complete out is the only way.
I despair, I really do.
Of course we don't know all the in's and out's of what is going down (well the know all brigade obviously do), maybe there will be a twist. [Post edited 27 Mar 2019 19:14]
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 19:13 - Mar 27 with 3844 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:30 - Mar 27 by Guthrum |
... and every time you don't, you abdicate all influence whatsoever.
Remember, it's the (democratically elected) pro-Brexit ERG/DUP MPs who consistently rebelled and blocked the Withdrawal Agreement which was negotiated with the EU and would have seen us legally leave the bloc on Friday - not the Remainers.
Purely because, after a marginal democratic victory, they haven't got an outcome exactly in line with their hard-line viewpoint. |
The consequences to seemingly unrelated actions are starting to confuse the heck out of me. We're now in a position where the headbanger hard Brexiteers are flipping 180° and supporting May's deal (months after trying to oust her for it) because they fear they'll lose Brexit altogether, because there's a groundswell of interest in revolking A50 or for a 2nd referendum. So the petition and people's viote march may have inadvertently made it more likely that those things won't happen by getting the Brexiteers on board with MV3.
Maybe.
Democracy? It's 'playable' and easily manipulated, but that doesn't mean we should disregard it. I wish we did more to tackle those who do look to undermine it, but the country seems happy not to. |  |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 22:04 - Mar 27 with 3781 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 17:46 - Mar 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Something like this......with a rolling rota of representative reporting wishes up and down the chain.
https://mesopotamia.coop/cooperatives-and-communes-the-third-way-of-rojava-in-th
But the real beating heart of the Kurdish revolution is the strategy of transition from the capitalist economic model to a new paradigm of social economy.
...and a bit of this too....
“We want 80% of our economy to be made up of co-operatives, but we don’t believe in a socialist model that prohibits private initiative. Our idea is that each person plays an active role in society, and the transformation has to happen step by step, with the participation of the people”, says Heval Rashid, co-president of the Department of Economy. In Kurdistan, two representatives, a man and a woman, are assigned to each public office, in a system of “co-presidency”.
Until three years ago no co-operatives existed in these areas except for some isolated and unpopular experiences linked to the Assad regime. Today, there are more than one hundred co-operatives in the Jazira canton, and they are multiplying at an astounding rate."
[Post edited 27 Mar 2019 17:49]
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Bumpety bump. | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 10:07 - Mar 28 with 3671 views | MJallday |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 11:07 - Mar 27 by factual_blue |
Civil Servants merely do what Ministers ask.
Sadly Ministers tend to have a poor grasp of reality. |
hang on.... i thought it was the civil service that ran governemnt, not the other way round.
I've seen enough episodes of yes minister to know that one! | |
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| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 11:23 - Mar 28 with 3652 views | No9 |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:35 - Mar 27 by BloomBlue |
But isn't that the big positive of democracy it allows different opinions and views and they challenge each other, the other option being the North Korean model?
No model is perfect and in a democracy you ultimately have to make a decision which will upset some, but democracy gives you the opportunity to challenge. |
On that basis you agree with a Second referendum then? | | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 11:47 - Mar 28 with 3641 views | Oxford_Blue |
How do you define “democracy”?
In its true form, it would be a vote by all citizens on all issues. Well, we had that with the referendum and over 30 million people voted but it is simply not realistic to repeat this process for every decision. In Athens, over two thousands years ago, which created the notion of democracy (literally, demo = people and cracy = rule) it was workable because only several thousand would turn up to listen and vote - but this still was imperfect because it excluded women, slaves and non citizens.
So over the last hundred years or so western democracies have worked on the basis of delegates and representatives of the people with checks and balances.
I actually think that this system still works and is the least bad option. | | | |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 12:37 - Mar 28 with 3615 views | Plums |
| Democracy is an illusion....anybody still disagree? on 09:55 - Mar 27 by Guthrum |
Since when did anybody do anything about that - getting off their arses to campaign, standing other candidates, forming other parties?
Even forcing the selection of better candidates by the existing parties (local associations have considerable powers). Just as Momentum has taken over parts of Labour, the same could be done to the Consevatives and the whole direction of the party changed.
Democracy has to be worked (even fought) for. If we simply take what we're handed on a plate, the portions will inevitably get smaller. |
Did you get an opportunity to look at this Guthers?
https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/read/62414034/inertia-politics-an-alternative-
Maybe the time isn’t right for doing nothing but the rest of it? |  |
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