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For all you left leaning remainers 12:00 - Apr 15 with 3988 viewsgazzer1999

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1114369/eu-news-brexit-latest-theresa-may-labo
This man spoke a lot of truth, and spent a large part of his life wanting to come out of the EU, shame his son doesn't have the same morals.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:06 - Apr 15 with 2079 viewsSteve_M

A). Agreeing with my view = moral stance.

B) Not agreeing with me = immoral.

A + B doesn't add up to a particularly strong argument, especially when it's citing an Express article.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:09 - Apr 15 with 2058 viewsgazzer1999

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:06 - Apr 15 by Steve_M

A). Agreeing with my view = moral stance.

B) Not agreeing with me = immoral.

A + B doesn't add up to a particularly strong argument, especially when it's citing an Express article.


I forgot it had to have come out of the Guardian for the lefties to like. They would never print anything that goes against their form of ideology.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:09 - Apr 15 with 2054 viewsEwan_Oozami

..have you seen a physio about it?

Am viewing TWTD in Table Mode on this browser so apologies if replying to a completely different post to the one I intended.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:12 - Apr 15 with 2031 views26_Paz

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:06 - Apr 15 by Steve_M

A). Agreeing with my view = moral stance.

B) Not agreeing with me = immoral.

A + B doesn't add up to a particularly strong argument, especially when it's citing an Express article.


A) Implementing the democratically expressed will of the people = moral stance.
B) Not implementing the democratically expressed will of the people = immoral stance.

That's a strong argument.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:17 - Apr 15 with 2024 viewsGodderzesquire

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:12 - Apr 15 by 26_Paz

A) Implementing the democratically expressed will of the people = moral stance.
B) Not implementing the democratically expressed will of the people = immoral stance.

That's a strong argument.


The fact that leavers are not willing to allow a second referendum in light of all the information we now have on what leaving will really mean to the UK suggests they know the UK is now majority remain.

= not democracy

Democracy is a continuous affair, not temporally variable.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:44 - Apr 15 with 1959 viewsgazzer1999

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:17 - Apr 15 by Godderzesquire

The fact that leavers are not willing to allow a second referendum in light of all the information we now have on what leaving will really mean to the UK suggests they know the UK is now majority remain.

= not democracy

Democracy is a continuous affair, not temporally variable.


So would you still agree to a 2nd referendum if the question is A: Leave no deal or B: The deal on offer.
Any other question was dealt with in the last Referendum.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:47 - Apr 15 with 1931 viewsDarth_Koont

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:44 - Apr 15 by gazzer1999

So would you still agree to a 2nd referendum if the question is A: Leave no deal or B: The deal on offer.
Any other question was dealt with in the last Referendum.


That's not very moral of you.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 12:53 - Apr 15 with 1916 viewsMullet

You had the cheek to criticise my use of neutral sources as "left-leaning" and then lazily cite the bloody Express!

What a joke. The Diana memorial rag FFS.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 13:04 - Apr 15 with 1860 viewsXYZ

Shame the rag that is the Daily Express couldn't show him the same respect when he was alive.

"Newly resurfaced book" wtf? It's been on the surface of my bookshelf for years. One might be tempted to ask why a "newspaper" was unaware of the book, but the answer's obvious.

Tony Benn was a man of principle. Rare, these days, but Dennis Skinner, Michael Heseltine and Ken Clarke are "of" that tradition.

He would have been horrified and angered by the playground level of debate around Brexit and the massive distraction the whole thing has been from addressing the real problems of austerity, stagnation and the rise of the far right across Europe and the world. He would also have recognised that leaving the EU in 2019 after having been a member for 40 years was an entirely different thing to leaving in, for example, the mid-1980s.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 13:05 - Apr 15 with 1882 viewsfactual_blue

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:06 - Apr 15 by Steve_M

A). Agreeing with my view = moral stance.

B) Not agreeing with me = immoral.

A + B doesn't add up to a particularly strong argument, especially when it's citing an Express article.


I'm surprised anybody reads anything in the express: the daily mail for the spectacularly thick.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 13:07 - Apr 15 with 1860 viewsfooters

For all you left leaning remainers on 13:05 - Apr 15 by factual_blue

I'm surprised anybody reads anything in the express: the daily mail for the spectacularly thick.


I just miss her, facterz. Miss her so much :(

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For all you left leaning remainers on 13:33 - Apr 15 with 1792 viewsRyorry

You speak highly of Tony Benn - so what do you think his view would have been of his son for sticking to his own beliefs, even though they differ from his own? And what do you think Tony B would have thought of you for attacking Hillary for sticking to his principles?

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For all you left leaning remainers on 14:02 - Apr 15 with 1722 viewsLord_Lucan


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For all you left leaning remainers on 14:33 - Apr 15 with 1644 viewsNo9

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:44 - Apr 15 by gazzer1999

So would you still agree to a 2nd referendum if the question is A: Leave no deal or B: The deal on offer.
Any other question was dealt with in the last Referendum.


The world has changed a lot since the last referendum
& a lot of people have had their eyes opened to reality
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For all you left leaning remainers on 14:37 - Apr 15 with 1641 viewsJohnWarksTash

Makes a change for a brexiteer to quote something from 2009.....thought they preferred the 1940's?
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For all you left leaning remainers on 14:43 - Apr 15 with 1625 viewsSwansea_Blue

People believing what they read in the Express AND Dennis Skinner popping up in the same thread. Proof the world has gone mad if ever you need it.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 14:49 - Apr 15 with 1617 viewsWeWereZombies

Well I will take your Express link and raise you a letter to the Financial Times on 26th March, 2019:

'One of the protagonists of Stendhal's 1839 novel La Chartreuse de Parme never changes her mind, on the assumption that she is no more intelligent today than she was yesterday. This behaviour is not correct, and contrasts with all theories about good decision-making.

Perhaps you are no more intelligent today than you were before, but now you may have more information, and every decision is the more likely to be correct the more you have detailed information on the subject.

This consideration may be taken into account by Britain, when considering the opportunity of a new referendum about Brexit. The people, in their "will", may have more information now than on June 23 2016.'

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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:03 - Apr 15 with 1574 viewsDarth_Koont

For all you left leaning remainers on 14:49 - Apr 15 by WeWereZombies

Well I will take your Express link and raise you a letter to the Financial Times on 26th March, 2019:

'One of the protagonists of Stendhal's 1839 novel La Chartreuse de Parme never changes her mind, on the assumption that she is no more intelligent today than she was yesterday. This behaviour is not correct, and contrasts with all theories about good decision-making.

Perhaps you are no more intelligent today than you were before, but now you may have more information, and every decision is the more likely to be correct the more you have detailed information on the subject.

This consideration may be taken into account by Britain, when considering the opportunity of a new referendum about Brexit. The people, in their "will", may have more information now than on June 23 2016.'


On a related note, I'm a great believer in the Tao idea of "The more I know, the less I understand".

Not only does digging deep show how little you know about all the other areas of knowledge out there, but even within specific areas the questions and answers become more complex and difficult the deeper you go. And also how, in the end, most insights and truths are counter-intuitive.

Brexit is a good example because now with a completely different level of knowledge across the board, the questions and answers have become much more difficult. Especially for people and politicians who only want to operate on that simple level. They're stuck in the groove of repeating "Brexit means Brexit" as if it has some holy value in explaining a deeper mystery.
[Post edited 15 Apr 15:05]
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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:14 - Apr 15 with 1547 viewsWeWereZombies

For all you left leaning remainers on 15:03 - Apr 15 by Darth_Koont

On a related note, I'm a great believer in the Tao idea of "The more I know, the less I understand".

Not only does digging deep show how little you know about all the other areas of knowledge out there, but even within specific areas the questions and answers become more complex and difficult the deeper you go. And also how, in the end, most insights and truths are counter-intuitive.

Brexit is a good example because now with a completely different level of knowledge across the board, the questions and answers have become much more difficult. Especially for people and politicians who only want to operate on that simple level. They're stuck in the groove of repeating "Brexit means Brexit" as if it has some holy value in explaining a deeper mystery.
[Post edited 15 Apr 15:05]


Doesn't the way of the Tao also involve avoiding conflict by withdrawing and withdrawing until the perpetrator gives up? I think Town have had one or two defenders who operate like that over the years. But returning to Brexit that would imply that after divorcing ourselves from Europe the United Kingdom might next divorce itself from NATO, the IMF, the WTO, the UN etc. Romantic as it may sound to portray Leavers as Taoism in action I would prefer information gathering, proportionality and weighted emphasis on the most pertinent information as a basis for decision making.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:28 - Apr 15 with 1521 viewsJonnosdreadlocks

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:17 - Apr 15 by Godderzesquire

The fact that leavers are not willing to allow a second referendum in light of all the information we now have on what leaving will really mean to the UK suggests they know the UK is now majority remain.

= not democracy

Democracy is a continuous affair, not temporally variable.


Why should we have a second referendum when parliament has not passed the original referendum? Would you want an election re run when the initial result was not implemented. 'in light of all the information we now have'. code for we lost, we won't accept the result lets, delay, water down, compromise and hope the majority who won will forget it. FFS the government even spent tax payers money prior to the 2016 referendum trying to persuade us to stay and the majority said we want to leave, add to that coporate business, the bbc and msm, universities, academia and you still lost.

Brexit isnt about left v right, its about populists and libertarians versus globalists who want to do away with borders and nations. Tony Benn was a man of principle, he was very left wing but he recognised democracy the sovereign state not the' John Lennon imagine' utopian BS that the likes of the EU want, in reality a huge authoritarian super state that is unelected and unaccountable.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:30 - Apr 15 with 1514 viewsJonnosdreadlocks

For all you left leaning remainers on 14:43 - Apr 15 by Swansea_Blue

People believing what they read in the Express AND Dennis Skinner popping up in the same thread. Proof the world has gone mad if ever you need it.


not really, Brexit is not the left v right battle that many remainers try to make out. its populism v globalism.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:40 - Apr 15 with 1496 viewsLord_Lucan

For all you left leaning remainers on 12:17 - Apr 15 by Godderzesquire

The fact that leavers are not willing to allow a second referendum in light of all the information we now have on what leaving will really mean to the UK suggests they know the UK is now majority remain.

= not democracy

Democracy is a continuous affair, not temporally variable.


I think the leavers argument is that in a democracy it is usual to implement a decision and maybe revisit it if required a few years later if the decision looks like it might not be the best way to continue.

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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:52 - Apr 15 with 1462 viewsDarth_Koont

For all you left leaning remainers on 15:14 - Apr 15 by WeWereZombies

Doesn't the way of the Tao also involve avoiding conflict by withdrawing and withdrawing until the perpetrator gives up? I think Town have had one or two defenders who operate like that over the years. But returning to Brexit that would imply that after divorcing ourselves from Europe the United Kingdom might next divorce itself from NATO, the IMF, the WTO, the UN etc. Romantic as it may sound to portray Leavers as Taoism in action I would prefer information gathering, proportionality and weighted emphasis on the most pertinent information as a basis for decision making.


Agreed. We should only be making decisions like this on what we know rather than what we believe or want to believe. The stakes are just too high for anything less.

This would be like turning the whole of the NHS over to homeopaths, crystal healers and witchdoctors. After all, they also believe in stuff and believe they're right.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 15:57 - Apr 15 with 1445 viewsDarth_Koont

For all you left leaning remainers on 15:30 - Apr 15 by Jonnosdreadlocks

not really, Brexit is not the left v right battle that many remainers try to make out. its populism v globalism.


Beliefs vs facts.

It's not as black and white as all beliefs on one side and all facts on the other. But there's a definite tendency there as people prefer stories about themselves and the surrounding world to boring, grey and complex reality.
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For all you left leaning remainers on 19:46 - Apr 15 with 1291 viewsRyorry

For all you left leaning remainers on 15:28 - Apr 15 by Jonnosdreadlocks

Why should we have a second referendum when parliament has not passed the original referendum? Would you want an election re run when the initial result was not implemented. 'in light of all the information we now have'. code for we lost, we won't accept the result lets, delay, water down, compromise and hope the majority who won will forget it. FFS the government even spent tax payers money prior to the 2016 referendum trying to persuade us to stay and the majority said we want to leave, add to that coporate business, the bbc and msm, universities, academia and you still lost.

Brexit isnt about left v right, its about populists and libertarians versus globalists who want to do away with borders and nations. Tony Benn was a man of principle, he was very left wing but he recognised democracy the sovereign state not the' John Lennon imagine' utopian BS that the likes of the EU want, in reality a huge authoritarian super state that is unelected and unaccountable.


Talking about "unelected", weren't the last turnout figures for MEP elections in the UK something like 35%? UK voters hardly seem interested in active involvement even when they have the choice -

http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm

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