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Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:17 - Apr 18 by Oxford_Blue
It will achieve nothing.
Unless the developing economies and those like China and India change, then we are heading for disaster. They won’t change.
This isn't correct. If financial institutions divested from fossil fuels and didn't support projects with high relative carbon or environmental footprints this would be a game-changer, and it's London, Paris, New York, Frankfurt and Tokyo, where financial institutions are looking the other way, rather than accepting their responsibility.
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Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:47 - Apr 18 with 5384 views
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:12 - Apr 18 by gordon
Agreed. The protests may be poorly thought out of course - targeting public transport doesn't make much sense, and gluing yourself to Jeremy Corbyn's garden also doesn't really hit the spot for me.
But, it is the time for disruptive protest - the idea most people have that this is about recycling more or putting in low-energy lightbulbs needs to be binned off pretty quickly.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:12]
So you agree with their demands to end all air travel for holidays and business by 2025, as their spokesman stated on TV yesterday?
You also agree to end all animal farming by that same date?
Just so we are clear.
Btw the use of plastic is causing massive damage to marine life so cutting out plastic where we can will have a positive effect.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:12 - Apr 18 by gordon
Agreed. The protests may be poorly thought out of course - targeting public transport doesn't make much sense, and gluing yourself to Jeremy Corbyn's garden also doesn't really hit the spot for me.
But, it is the time for disruptive protest - the idea most people have that this is about recycling more or putting in low-energy lightbulbs needs to be binned off pretty quickly.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:12]
They need to get themselves to strategic M25 junctions!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:47 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue
So you agree with their demands to end all air travel for holidays and business by 2025, as their spokesman stated on TV yesterday?
You also agree to end all animal farming by that same date?
Just so we are clear.
Btw the use of plastic is causing massive damage to marine life so cutting out plastic where we can will have a positive effect.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:50]
I don't think you have to entirely agree with their whole platform to have some sympathy with the idea that we're irreparably screwing up the entire planet.
Cutting out plastic will help sea life, however we do have a rather larger issue with climate change that nobody appears to be taking seriously, especially among the general populace. As someone else said, the replies in this thread are telling.
We've been warned over and over again for decades what we're doing and nobody really appears to be taking any notice.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:13 - Apr 18 by DanTheMan
I don't think you have to entirely agree with their whole platform to have some sympathy with the idea that we're irreparably screwing up the entire planet.
Cutting out plastic will help sea life, however we do have a rather larger issue with climate change that nobody appears to be taking seriously, especially among the general populace. As someone else said, the replies in this thread are telling.
We've been warned over and over again for decades what we're doing and nobody really appears to be taking any notice.
I completely agree with you. But demanding an end to all air travel and meat eating in the next six years is not the way to get ordinary people to take the issue of climate change seriously. Nor will it focus the minds of our politicians.
It’s like protesting against Evans poor investment in players by demanding we sign Messi, Ronaldo and Pogba in the next transfer window.
Realistic proposals backed by scientific evidence and education would have a far more positive effect.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:27 - Apr 18 by gordon
This isn't correct. If financial institutions divested from fossil fuels and didn't support projects with high relative carbon or environmental footprints this would be a game-changer, and it's London, Paris, New York, Frankfurt and Tokyo, where financial institutions are looking the other way, rather than accepting their responsibility.
If we are talking financial centres don't forget Singapore, Johannesburg and Shanghai now.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:17 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue
I completely agree with you. But demanding an end to all air travel and meat eating in the next six years is not the way to get ordinary people to take the issue of climate change seriously. Nor will it focus the minds of our politicians.
It’s like protesting against Evans poor investment in players by demanding we sign Messi, Ronaldo and Pogba in the next transfer window.
Realistic proposals backed by scientific evidence and education would have a far more positive effect.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 8:22]
I'm confused as to what will focus the minds of politicians and people to be frank then.
As I said, everyone has been warned. Repeatedly.
We've had quite senior politicians saying it's all a myth, we've had the media come out and say the same. Some of the same nonsense tropes used then get spread (e.g. "climate has changed before" as seen in this very thread).
Some of those people, in the presence of pretty obvious evidence then moved it to, "OK it's happening, but it's not human."
Then it was "Well humans are contributing but it's not that bad"
Then it was "Humans are contributing, it is bad, but India and China aren't helping so why bother" (!??!)
They've tried arguing the human angle, they've tried arguing the long term economic angle, the long term survival angle. This is the bloody planet we're talking about and people are worried they won't be able to go to fooking Benidorm.
Literally nothing has worked.
Nobody important has listened.
At this point serious mass protest might be the only actual way to get something done. If anything, these protests are just not big enough. You need tens of thousands of people.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:47 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue
So you agree with their demands to end all air travel for holidays and business by 2025, as their spokesman stated on TV yesterday?
You also agree to end all animal farming by that same date?
Just so we are clear.
Btw the use of plastic is causing massive damage to marine life so cutting out plastic where we can will have a positive effect.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 7:50]
I don't think it's always helpful to see these things in such a binary way, but if we are, then ending all animal farming and air travel would obviously be a worthwhile price to pay for avoiding climate catastrophe and e.g. mass extinctions.
To put it another way, would you rather have holidays and meat now, and leave systemic collapse caused by runaway global warming for your grandchildren?
The point of protestors making such statements is to get people thinking about these trade-offs, and in that sense the protests are working.
I obviously agree re plastics, if you're concerned about marine life then in the medium to long term ocean acidification associated with CO2 emissions may be a far far, greater problem, and effectively cause the collapse of marine ecosystems.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:23 - Apr 18 by DanTheMan
I'm confused as to what will focus the minds of politicians and people to be frank then.
As I said, everyone has been warned. Repeatedly.
We've had quite senior politicians saying it's all a myth, we've had the media come out and say the same. Some of the same nonsense tropes used then get spread (e.g. "climate has changed before" as seen in this very thread).
Some of those people, in the presence of pretty obvious evidence then moved it to, "OK it's happening, but it's not human."
Then it was "Well humans are contributing but it's not that bad"
Then it was "Humans are contributing, it is bad, but India and China aren't helping so why bother" (!??!)
They've tried arguing the human angle, they've tried arguing the long term economic angle, the long term survival angle. This is the bloody planet we're talking about and people are worried they won't be able to go to fooking Benidorm.
Literally nothing has worked.
Nobody important has listened.
At this point serious mass protest might be the only actual way to get something done. If anything, these protests are just not big enough. You need tens of thousands of people.
In short:
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 8:24]
......and then there's pesticides, weed killers etc....time to get our collective heads out of our arses. We need to change pretty much everything. A good start would be to stop looking for ways to exploit new planets.....we need to look inward not further and further out!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:17 - Apr 18 by GlasgowBlue
I completely agree with you. But demanding an end to all air travel and meat eating in the next six years is not the way to get ordinary people to take the issue of climate change seriously. Nor will it focus the minds of our politicians.
It’s like protesting against Evans poor investment in players by demanding we sign Messi, Ronaldo and Pogba in the next transfer window.
Realistic proposals backed by scientific evidence and education would have a far more positive effect.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 8:22]
The scientific evidence is unequivocal - humankind needs to make drastic, systemic changes, or there will be runaway global warming which will likely lead to massive, civilisation-scale disasters.
If that isn't what you want to hear then it's difficult to know what to say.
When we were 14 points adrift with 5 games left, were you saying, 'if we can get a point from the next game then we can stay up.'
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Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:54 - Apr 18 with 5318 views
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:35 - Apr 18 by gordon
I don't think it's always helpful to see these things in such a binary way, but if we are, then ending all animal farming and air travel would obviously be a worthwhile price to pay for avoiding climate catastrophe and e.g. mass extinctions.
To put it another way, would you rather have holidays and meat now, and leave systemic collapse caused by runaway global warming for your grandchildren?
The point of protestors making such statements is to get people thinking about these trade-offs, and in that sense the protests are working.
I obviously agree re plastics, if you're concerned about marine life then in the medium to long term ocean acidification associated with CO2 emissions may be a far far, greater problem, and effectively cause the collapse of marine ecosystems.
I gave Glassers an uppie for his post and then started thinking on, a total ban on plastics might not be such a great idea if intelligent use of plastic minimised other harms to the environment. Perhaps a bigger threat than plastic is the idea of disposability without responsibility?
It is a common complaint that there is too much packaging but a counter argument is that the packaging cuts down wastage due to spoiled and damaged food. However what we experience seems to be overkill - and we often buy too much stuff because we are induced by attempts to increase a suppliers turnover or grab business from competitors. In short, we do not have an economic model that is sustainable for human needs let alone the rest of the living things on this planet. To improve that requires a permanent shift in the consciousness of the majority of human beings.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:07 - Apr 18 by footers
Some responses to this here and elsewhere have been unbelievable. Why are people clutching at any available straw to try and delegitimise protests about the single most important issue to mankind?
'How many would there have been if it weren't a school holiday?', 'That isn't the point of these protests', 'They're militants', etc.
Anyway, you're all talking about it so guess it's worked!
I don't disagree with their argument but I disagree with the way they are doing it.
Look at the great strides the LGBT community has made by regular city wide marches. This protest - like others they have done just gets peoples backs up.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:54 - Apr 18 by WeWereZombies
I gave Glassers an uppie for his post and then started thinking on, a total ban on plastics might not be such a great idea if intelligent use of plastic minimised other harms to the environment. Perhaps a bigger threat than plastic is the idea of disposability without responsibility?
It is a common complaint that there is too much packaging but a counter argument is that the packaging cuts down wastage due to spoiled and damaged food. However what we experience seems to be overkill - and we often buy too much stuff because we are induced by attempts to increase a suppliers turnover or grab business from competitors. In short, we do not have an economic model that is sustainable for human needs let alone the rest of the living things on this planet. To improve that requires a permanent shift in the consciousness of the majority of human beings.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 8:56]
And to add to that, spoiled and damaged food can be reused, almost immediately. It isn't really a big problem compared to what to do with plastic and packaging, which is always a waste product, once a vegetable has been or hasn't been used.
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Fantastic to read reports of young people on 09:27 - Apr 18 with 5283 views
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:54 - Apr 18 by WeWereZombies
I gave Glassers an uppie for his post and then started thinking on, a total ban on plastics might not be such a great idea if intelligent use of plastic minimised other harms to the environment. Perhaps a bigger threat than plastic is the idea of disposability without responsibility?
It is a common complaint that there is too much packaging but a counter argument is that the packaging cuts down wastage due to spoiled and damaged food. However what we experience seems to be overkill - and we often buy too much stuff because we are induced by attempts to increase a suppliers turnover or grab business from competitors. In short, we do not have an economic model that is sustainable for human needs let alone the rest of the living things on this planet. To improve that requires a permanent shift in the consciousness of the majority of human beings.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 8:56]
Let's all start by not buying our kids over packaged Easter eggs....then on Monday pop down to your local supermarket skip and collect 100's for free to prevent them going to landfill. Educational and a fun family day out!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 09:27 - Apr 18 by BanksterDebtSlave
Let's all start by not buying our kids over packaged Easter eggs....then on Monday pop down to your local supermarket skip and collect 100's for free to prevent them going to landfill. Educational and a fun family day out!
Another example of freeganism is the occasional clicking on ads on TWTD, thereby giving Phil and Gav income, without ever buying anything. But is that a slippery slope to fake reviews?
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 07:07 - Apr 18 by footers
Some responses to this here and elsewhere have been unbelievable. Why are people clutching at any available straw to try and delegitimise protests about the single most important issue to mankind?
'How many would there have been if it weren't a school holiday?', 'That isn't the point of these protests', 'They're militants', etc.
Anyway, you're all talking about it so guess it's worked!
I don't think anyone with a functioning brain can still be unaware of the scale of the problem and the danger facing our planet thanks to us humans (aside from a v. small number of climate deniers).
The point that I and others have made is the method the Extinction Rebellion people have chosen to make their protest - they're preaching to the converted on the one hand, and simply alienating many of those who are the ones they actually need to convert on the other hand. If you were someone who, e.g., missed a hospital appointment you'd been waiting months for because of the hold-ups caused by the protests, do you think you'd have been more sympathetic to their cause as a result, or would it be more likely to have led you to think they were irresponsible & unreasonable?!
You've only got to read this thread - it's a microcosm of that - the people who need to be persuaded have shown themselves to be further alienated by the protest, and the only ones pleased by the protest were in the already convinced camp anyway.
I'm only disagreeing with you (and the "convinced" camp, of which I'm also one) because I feel there are far, far better targets, and ways of targeting them, than these blanket protests aimed at, and hurting in many cases, ordinary people.
Btw heard on the radio this morning that the fashion industry is nearly as big and bad a damager of the environment as the fossil fuels industry, meat farming etc., something I for one was unaware of, tho I don't have any figures (yet!)
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:40 - Apr 18 by gordon
The scientific evidence is unequivocal - humankind needs to make drastic, systemic changes, or there will be runaway global warming which will likely lead to massive, civilisation-scale disasters.
If that isn't what you want to hear then it's difficult to know what to say.
When we were 14 points adrift with 5 games left, were you saying, 'if we can get a point from the next game then we can stay up.'
Yes, again, I accept the point made in your first paragraph. I doubt many sane people would disagree with that.
But the demands the protesters are making would turn the clock back to pre industrial revolution. That simply isn't feasible.
They should be making the points you and Dan have made rather than a list of demands that will never be accepted.
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 08:40 - Apr 18 by gordon
The scientific evidence is unequivocal - humankind needs to make drastic, systemic changes, or there will be runaway global warming which will likely lead to massive, civilisation-scale disasters.
If that isn't what you want to hear then it's difficult to know what to say.
When we were 14 points adrift with 5 games left, were you saying, 'if we can get a point from the next game then we can stay up.'
There are significant changes being made but only in developed countries. Renewable energy generation costs have shrunk considerably over the past 10 years but most of the installations are in what we might call 1st world countries As improvements in technology continues (the 12 MW Wind Turbine is a reality) more power will come for less cost but there are not sufficient units being made to satisfy demand.
Solar power could be extended into 3rd world countries quite easily but that means political will
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Fantastic to read reports of young people on 11:35 - Apr 18 with 5177 views
Fantastic to read reports of young people on 11:33 - Apr 18 by No9
There are significant changes being made but only in developed countries. Renewable energy generation costs have shrunk considerably over the past 10 years but most of the installations are in what we might call 1st world countries As improvements in technology continues (the 12 MW Wind Turbine is a reality) more power will come for less cost but there are not sufficient units being made to satisfy demand.
Solar power could be extended into 3rd world countries quite easily but that means political will
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
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