| Is there any point.... 12:15 - May 1 with 6807 views | chicoazul |
.....in having an Academy now?
Given the amount of money that swims around the game now surely, if the young players we build are any good, they will do a Charlie Brown or a Ben Knight? People will say, well we have lots of young players coming through now. Well, we just got relegated. So what does that say about those young players?
However many millions the Academy costs might we be better in investing that into a scouting network?
Worth a think boyos. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 12:46 - May 1 with 2346 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is there any point.... on 12:43 - May 1 by chicoazul |
Marshalls Mullet I can see you have replied a few times in this post, I dont know if you are replying directly to me, but this is just a helpful reminder that you are on my Ignore list so you wont be getting any answers. |
How very strange from Chico.
Didnt realise I was on his ignore list, but thats fine by me.
Suspect he got bored of being corrected ;-) |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 12:49 - May 1 with 2349 views | SouperJim |
| Is there any point.... on 12:39 - May 1 by chicoazul |
But as I said, if those players are any good, they will leave. Things have changed massively since Wark Butcher Brazil, Dyer Wright Scowcroft, Bent Ambrose. |
I don't entirely agree, yes there is a problem with the absolutely top drawer prospects being pinched by other clubs, but the likes of Lancaster, Dozzell, Nydam, Downes... if correctly supplemented by more experienced heads like Judge, Chambers, Skuse, plus a few affordables like Nolan, Edwards. It has some legs for me. If we get motoring in the right direction, we will have no need to cash in on these youngsters and they will likely want to be play their football here rather than elsewhere. Other prospects coming through will then look at what others have achieved and have something realistic to aspire to.
It has to be worth a go versus the same old same old we've been doing for the last 10-15. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 12:58 - May 1 with 2336 views | itfcjoe |
| Is there any point.... on 12:23 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
The success of an academy should be based on those academy players being sold for significant sums or going on to make significant contributions.
I'm talking the likes of Dyer, Wright, Bramble, not those that are essentially filling in due to lack of investment. The young players have been a red herring this year. None of them have excelled and none would be close to the starting 11 had there been proper investment.
The academy is not producing and hasn't been for some time. |
An academy has a few things to measure success for me
- The stars that come in and burn bright, make significant impact on first team
- The players that are sold, either those above, or ones who we unfortunately don't get to see in the first team
- The 'squad fillers' thse guys save you a hell of a lot of money, they fill gaps in the squad and generally are lowly paid especially initially. There is little point in signing someone of kenlock's ability, and if you do it can be pricey both initially and ongoing, e.g. Elder
- As a community venture it is required. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 12:58 - May 1 with 2333 views | maccyd9 |
| Is there any point.... on 12:49 - May 1 by SouperJim |
I don't entirely agree, yes there is a problem with the absolutely top drawer prospects being pinched by other clubs, but the likes of Lancaster, Dozzell, Nydam, Downes... if correctly supplemented by more experienced heads like Judge, Chambers, Skuse, plus a few affordables like Nolan, Edwards. It has some legs for me. If we get motoring in the right direction, we will have no need to cash in on these youngsters and they will likely want to be play their football here rather than elsewhere. Other prospects coming through will then look at what others have achieved and have something realistic to aspire to.
It has to be worth a go versus the same old same old we've been doing for the last 10-15. |
I think the issue lies with the standards of those players coming through.
Nydam has not contributed, Dozzell has not been able to make any mark on 2/3 managers, Lancaster has a handful of appearances and Downes would not feature in our midfield had everyone been fit.
Those 4 probably have a combined value right now of £3m-£4m which for a combined 40 years worth of investment is not much of a return, if ever there is one.
For me, you need a gem a season to come through and with the way any decent prospect is taken from us, is unlikely to happen. We will end up with perhaps 1 or 2 slightly better than average players for the level we are operating at per season. |  | | |
| Is there any point.... on 12:59 - May 1 with 2329 views | itfcjoe |
| Is there any point.... on 12:26 - May 1 by chicoazul |
Yes I can because you said one of the problems with my solution is finding the money to buy the players we scout, and I gave two examples one of whom cost relative peanuts and another who cost nothing at all, so the players are out there. |
Free transfer's don't cost nothing - if they are in demand there is a big signing on fee, plus higher wages because there has been no fee. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:01 - May 1 with 2325 views | maccyd9 |
| Is there any point.... on 12:58 - May 1 by itfcjoe |
An academy has a few things to measure success for me
- The stars that come in and burn bright, make significant impact on first team
- The players that are sold, either those above, or ones who we unfortunately don't get to see in the first team
- The 'squad fillers' thse guys save you a hell of a lot of money, they fill gaps in the squad and generally are lowly paid especially initially. There is little point in signing someone of kenlock's ability, and if you do it can be pricey both initially and ongoing, e.g. Elder
- As a community venture it is required. |
The only one of those we are doing is squad fillers which I'm absolutely certain is in no way what the club will be hoping to produce from the Academy.
Of course it's important to try and be in the community and produce your own players but we are a sitting duck.
Brentford have abandoned their academy for the very same reasons and I'm sure many more will follow. | | | |
| Is there any point.... on 13:03 - May 1 with 2323 views | Guthrum |
The Academy is a scouting network, for potential future talent. It's at least as reliable as any other type in identifying genuine talent (within the budgetary contraints we have). McCarthy was good at finding undervalued players and he still had quite a high failure rate.
We might lose those who are seen as the very top prospects (and we do get a fair bit of money for them, considering how unproven they are), but we can hang onto the pretty good (e.g. Downes, Lankester) who are certainly not to blame for our relegation this season. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:10 - May 1 with 2296 views | SouperJim |
| Is there any point.... on 12:58 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
I think the issue lies with the standards of those players coming through.
Nydam has not contributed, Dozzell has not been able to make any mark on 2/3 managers, Lancaster has a handful of appearances and Downes would not feature in our midfield had everyone been fit.
Those 4 probably have a combined value right now of £3m-£4m which for a combined 40 years worth of investment is not much of a return, if ever there is one.
For me, you need a gem a season to come through and with the way any decent prospect is taken from us, is unlikely to happen. We will end up with perhaps 1 or 2 slightly better than average players for the level we are operating at per season. |
I don't particularly agree with your assessment on the 4 players in question, you also have to consider the amount of football they've had while we have been pursing the "same old" approach versus what they might achieve being regular starters in a growing team from next season where their development is very much the focus.
I agree that we need to see an improvement in the quality coming through, but until we properly pursue this approach, we'll never know. I think we have to give it 5 years at least.
I am fully prepared for the reality being this is just Evans latest justification for the level of investment he's prepared to make. But we've got to try something rather than the "bimble along and hope we get lucky" approach that has served us so poorly in recent years. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:12 - May 1 with 2290 views | itfcjoe |
| Is there any point.... on 13:01 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
The only one of those we are doing is squad fillers which I'm absolutely certain is in no way what the club will be hoping to produce from the Academy.
Of course it's important to try and be in the community and produce your own players but we are a sitting duck.
Brentford have abandoned their academy for the very same reasons and I'm sure many more will follow. |
Brentford, like Huddersfield are in a very different situation though - where the majority of the boys in their academy have probably the same or lesser travelling distance to better clubs/academies so holding on to boys is difficult.
We unfortunately have a ceiling to our ability that we can keep hold of, Ben Knight was too good for us sadly, as likely was Andre Dozzell at the same age. They are of an ability level that every club will pay for them, and their families to relocate and no club can compete with that - even those at Cat 1.
But there is a big sweet spot in that level below that where players like Nydam, Downes, Lankester, Bishop sit - these are all players who have been there or thereabouts with England squads, as have Zak Brown and Fraser Alexander below them and there must be others who should be in that company too like Liam Gibbs.
The difficulty is getting them through to the first team, and giving them that run of games that they and we require to see what they have.
The club have made the right noises, but I'm concerned with a couple of areas - that Lambert will need results quickly and isn't playing a style conducive to bringing young players though, and that they have just chucked out a load of long pro contracts to youngsters who i don't believe will be good enough | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:14 - May 1 with 2275 views | Guthrum |
| Is there any point.... on 12:32 - May 1 by chicoazul |
Over the last 15 years how many youngsters have we had come into the first team and be sold for a significant sum? Wickham, and.....? The argument that the Academy saves the club money it would otherwise have to pay for signing players is an interesting one. |
Still represents a reasonable proportion of the money brought in from player sales over the last decade. Certainly in terms of individual sales. Only Mings rivalling it, off the top of my head. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:17 - May 1 with 2262 views | Guthrum |
| Is there any point.... on 12:33 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
My point was that the success of the academy is output, be it fees or significant contribution to the first team that saves you spending x on players.
None of those listed have done either imo. |
How much would it cost to have adequately replaced Flynn Downes this season? | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:29 - May 1 with 2241 views | maccyd9 |
| Is there any point.... on 13:17 - May 1 by Guthrum |
How much would it cost to have adequately replaced Flynn Downes this season? |
Impossible question to answer really.
Some fans question whether he should be in the 11. I question whether he would be had Hwuys & Adeyemi been fit.
Does he get in with a midfield of Skuse, Trev, Hwuys, Adeyemi, Bishop, Judge? In which case the argument could be zero.
It's not that I don't think Downes is ok, but I don't see him getting in to many Championship midfields this season and given he would probably be this seasons youth success story, is a worry for me. | | | |
| Is there any point.... on 13:50 - May 1 with 2211 views | SouperJim |
| Is there any point.... on 13:29 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
Impossible question to answer really.
Some fans question whether he should be in the 11. I question whether he would be had Hwuys & Adeyemi been fit.
Does he get in with a midfield of Skuse, Trev, Hwuys, Adeyemi, Bishop, Judge? In which case the argument could be zero.
It's not that I don't think Downes is ok, but I don't see him getting in to many Championship midfields this season and given he would probably be this seasons youth success story, is a worry for me. |
You're judging him on his value right now and his development to date versus known quantities. This isn't a fair comparison imo when considering the potential success of growing your own rather than buying in, you need to look at where he might be in 2-3 years time during which we've fully been pursuing the "invest in youth" approach.
Obviously until you've given a young player enough football, it's impossible to know whether they justify the investment. This is the essential problem with the debate in this thread, you can't look at what has happened before and use it as a yardstick to gauge how successful fully investing in the academy approach might be. We can speculate, but until we try it for a number of years, it's all educated guesswork. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 13:58 - May 1 with 2191 views | ITFC_Forever |
| Is there any point.... on 12:44 - May 1 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Webster scouted Bart.
Osborne scouted Mings.
;-) |
Osborne didn't scout Mings.
Osman did. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:04 - May 1 with 2176 views | PJH |
| Is there any point.... on 13:12 - May 1 by itfcjoe |
Brentford, like Huddersfield are in a very different situation though - where the majority of the boys in their academy have probably the same or lesser travelling distance to better clubs/academies so holding on to boys is difficult.
We unfortunately have a ceiling to our ability that we can keep hold of, Ben Knight was too good for us sadly, as likely was Andre Dozzell at the same age. They are of an ability level that every club will pay for them, and their families to relocate and no club can compete with that - even those at Cat 1.
But there is a big sweet spot in that level below that where players like Nydam, Downes, Lankester, Bishop sit - these are all players who have been there or thereabouts with England squads, as have Zak Brown and Fraser Alexander below them and there must be others who should be in that company too like Liam Gibbs.
The difficulty is getting them through to the first team, and giving them that run of games that they and we require to see what they have.
The club have made the right noises, but I'm concerned with a couple of areas - that Lambert will need results quickly and isn't playing a style conducive to bringing young players though, and that they have just chucked out a load of long pro contracts to youngsters who i don't believe will be good enough |
Your point about the number of contracts handed out to young players in the last few months is interesting.
There does to seem to be a bit of "they are young so we will keep them" about some of them.
One good thing about that policy is that you do not have the situation where you regret releasing a player in a couple of years time because they start to make it big somewhere else.
With Josh being kept on we currently have 33 players under contract for next season or beyond(according to my listing) and although a chunk of them are not yet in contention for the first team that is still too many.
With the need to bring in a striker and possibly a goalkeeper it seems to me that there are either going to be a fair few of those 33 either available for transfer or more likely available for loan. |  | | |
| Is there any point.... on 14:05 - May 1 with 2176 views | Guthrum |
| Is there any point.... on 13:29 - May 1 by maccyd9 |
Impossible question to answer really.
Some fans question whether he should be in the 11. I question whether he would be had Hwuys & Adeyemi been fit.
Does he get in with a midfield of Skuse, Trev, Hwuys, Adeyemi, Bishop, Judge? In which case the argument could be zero.
It's not that I don't think Downes is ok, but I don't see him getting in to many Championship midfields this season and given he would probably be this seasons youth success story, is a worry for me. |
Most of those you list haven't been here/fit (or, with someone like Nolan, in form) for large parts of the season. Thus Downes has played a vital part and would have to have been replaced if he didn't exist - at a cost. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:05 - May 1 with 2172 views | PJH |
| Is there any point.... on 13:58 - May 1 by ITFC_Forever |
Osborne didn't scout Mings.
Osman did. |
Well at least it was someone from Australia! | | | |
| Is there any point.... on 14:07 - May 1 with 2167 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Is there any point.... on 12:40 - May 1 by Marshalls_Mullet |
To be fair, we have nearly produced (through academy plus signings) a Premier League team over the past 10 years, unfortunately, they werent wearing Town shirts when they did.
GK
Rosenior
Mings
Delaney
Macauley
Cresswell
Walters
Garvan
M
A
Rhodes
Wickham |
You could have Pope in goal - good enough for England - just not good enough for Ipswich | |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:07 - May 1 with 2165 views | itfcjoe |
| Is there any point.... on 14:04 - May 1 by PJH |
Your point about the number of contracts handed out to young players in the last few months is interesting.
There does to seem to be a bit of "they are young so we will keep them" about some of them.
One good thing about that policy is that you do not have the situation where you regret releasing a player in a couple of years time because they start to make it big somewhere else.
With Josh being kept on we currently have 33 players under contract for next season or beyond(according to my listing) and although a chunk of them are not yet in contention for the first team that is still too many.
With the need to bring in a striker and possibly a goalkeeper it seems to me that there are either going to be a fair few of those 33 either available for transfer or more likely available for loan. |
I don't think 33 is too many, when you consider you have to put out an u23 side and anyone over 18 is a pro.
It almost needs to be split between
Senior pros and 1st teamers
U23s
U18s
Of course some of the first team will be U23s, but there is a big difference between Flynn Downes and Brett McGavin who are both pros | |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:08 - May 1 with 2164 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Is there any point.... on 13:58 - May 1 by ITFC_Forever |
Osborne didn't scout Mings.
Osman did. |
I mean, it's not like Osman has gone on about it enough either.... |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:14 - May 1 with 2147 views | BiGDonnie |
| Is there any point.... on 12:43 - May 1 by chicoazul |
Marshalls Mullet I can see you have replied a few times in this post, I dont know if you are replying directly to me, but this is just a helpful reminder that you are on my Ignore list so you wont be getting any answers. |
You sound like a child with this sh!t lad. Grow up. |  |
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| Is there any point.... on 14:19 - May 1 with 2127 views | PJH |
| Is there any point.... on 14:07 - May 1 by itfcjoe |
I don't think 33 is too many, when you consider you have to put out an u23 side and anyone over 18 is a pro.
It almost needs to be split between
Senior pros and 1st teamers
U23s
U18s
Of course some of the first team will be U23s, but there is a big difference between Flynn Downes and Brett McGavin who are both pros |
Yes very true, I was not thinking in terms of also running an U23 team.
Although some of them are currently injured I would say that if fit 25 of those 33 would currently be first team squad with it being very likely that two or more incoming's would be first team squad so in that respect I think we are/will be overloaded. | | | |
| Is there any point.... on 14:41 - May 1 with 2093 views | maccyd9 |
| Is there any point.... on 14:05 - May 1 by Guthrum |
Most of those you list haven't been here/fit (or, with someone like Nolan, in form) for large parts of the season. Thus Downes has played a vital part and would have to have been replaced if he didn't exist - at a cost. |
The question was, what would the cost be, not would there be a cost.
The answer is still similar. Very little cost imo. Maybe we simply wouldn't have loaned Nydam out. | | | |
| Is there any point.... on 15:14 - May 1 with 2058 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is there any point.... on 14:14 - May 1 by BiGDonnie |
You sound like a child with this sh!t lad. Grow up. |
This. | |
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| Is there any point.... on 15:15 - May 1 with 2057 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Is there any point.... on 12:58 - May 1 by itfcjoe |
An academy has a few things to measure success for me
- The stars that come in and burn bright, make significant impact on first team
- The players that are sold, either those above, or ones who we unfortunately don't get to see in the first team
- The 'squad fillers' thse guys save you a hell of a lot of money, they fill gaps in the squad and generally are lowly paid especially initially. There is little point in signing someone of kenlock's ability, and if you do it can be pricey both initially and ongoing, e.g. Elder
- As a community venture it is required. |
Agreed. | |
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