| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:03 - May 29 with 931 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
"Corbyn could........"
Thats where the article loses traction...
Corbyn could do lots of things!!
.....Corbyn does nothing. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:08 - May 29 with 921 views | StokieBlue |
It's based on a false premise though, it's saying that Labour should remain but then ignore EU rules and tell them to sod off when it suits them:
"A commitment to remain should come with a solemn promise: if aspects of a future manifesto come into conflict with EU rules, then screw it, Labour will happily have that fight."
That's never going to work, Cameron couldn't get even the smallest of concessions which would have stopped us leaving, how on earth are Labour going to just swan around ignoring rule and believe the EU are going to let them?
"Britain has historically had a strong position within the EU by virtue of its status as a former imperial power, enjoying opt-outs on the Schengen travel rules and the eurozone that few others have been granted."
Historically this was the case, it's highly unlikely to be the case going forward after the whole Brexit process regardless on whether we leave or remain.
This is the trouble, it sounds good but it's not workable. Much like their current Brexit "strategy".
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:24 - May 29 with 896 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:08 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
It's based on a false premise though, it's saying that Labour should remain but then ignore EU rules and tell them to sod off when it suits them:
"A commitment to remain should come with a solemn promise: if aspects of a future manifesto come into conflict with EU rules, then screw it, Labour will happily have that fight."
That's never going to work, Cameron couldn't get even the smallest of concessions which would have stopped us leaving, how on earth are Labour going to just swan around ignoring rule and believe the EU are going to let them?
"Britain has historically had a strong position within the EU by virtue of its status as a former imperial power, enjoying opt-outs on the Schengen travel rules and the eurozone that few others have been granted."
Historically this was the case, it's highly unlikely to be the case going forward after the whole Brexit process regardless on whether we leave or remain.
This is the trouble, it sounds good but it's not workable. Much like their current Brexit "strategy".
SB |
I think you're being rather emotive with your language there. I don't think she's saying ignore the rules and tell them to sod off when it suits! It's about engaging and debating, but being strong about it. It can be done and has been done on occasion.
Surely it's better for the EU as a whole if we stay... so some concessions could be forthcoming for doing so. If it starts to split further (after the UK leaves) that can only be bad for them.
I take your point generally, I have no way of knowing if this would work in practice. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:28 - May 29 with 887 views | giant_stow |
Hey, its nice to agree with you for a change!
I totally agree and have always wanted a more "willing to break rules within", approach. There's much more leverage starting from this position than demanding to leave and then trying to negotiate. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:29 - May 29 with 884 views | StokieBlue |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:24 - May 29 by BrixtonBlue |
I think you're being rather emotive with your language there. I don't think she's saying ignore the rules and tell them to sod off when it suits! It's about engaging and debating, but being strong about it. It can be done and has been done on occasion.
Surely it's better for the EU as a whole if we stay... so some concessions could be forthcoming for doing so. If it starts to split further (after the UK leaves) that can only be bad for them.
I take your point generally, I have no way of knowing if this would work in practice. |
"It’s reasonable to suspect that if Labour wanted to pursue a policy platform that was more interventionist than its 2017 manifesto, it would soon come into conflict with the EU. I say bring it on."
That is essentially saying ignore the rules and see what they do about it.
I don't think there will be any concessions from the EU on anything - there might have been previously but we have messed them around for 3 years - we have absolutely no good will.
There are many examples of them not bending the rules like the Cameron one I gave which started this whole mess. I'm struggling to think of one when they did but perhaps you are right.
I think you might be looking that article through rose tinted specs. It's appealing I agree but deeply flawed in reality.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:29 - May 29 with 883 views | Darth_Koont |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:08 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
It's based on a false premise though, it's saying that Labour should remain but then ignore EU rules and tell them to sod off when it suits them:
"A commitment to remain should come with a solemn promise: if aspects of a future manifesto come into conflict with EU rules, then screw it, Labour will happily have that fight."
That's never going to work, Cameron couldn't get even the smallest of concessions which would have stopped us leaving, how on earth are Labour going to just swan around ignoring rule and believe the EU are going to let them?
"Britain has historically had a strong position within the EU by virtue of its status as a former imperial power, enjoying opt-outs on the Schengen travel rules and the eurozone that few others have been granted."
Historically this was the case, it's highly unlikely to be the case going forward after the whole Brexit process regardless on whether we leave or remain.
This is the trouble, it sounds good but it's not workable. Much like their current Brexit "strategy".
SB |
Cameron got concessions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
But it seems that even the negotiations were grandstanding for his party so that didn't matter. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:32 - May 29 with 861 views | StokieBlue |
Fair enough - poorly worded for me.
I don't think they are the level of concessions that the article is championing though and it was at a time when we still had some good will. I don't see why the EU would be helpful given the nonsense of the last 3 years.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:34 - May 29 with 857 views | giant_stow |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:29 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
"It’s reasonable to suspect that if Labour wanted to pursue a policy platform that was more interventionist than its 2017 manifesto, it would soon come into conflict with the EU. I say bring it on."
That is essentially saying ignore the rules and see what they do about it.
I don't think there will be any concessions from the EU on anything - there might have been previously but we have messed them around for 3 years - we have absolutely no good will.
There are many examples of them not bending the rules like the Cameron one I gave which started this whole mess. I'm struggling to think of one when they did but perhaps you are right.
I think you might be looking that article through rose tinted specs. It's appealing I agree but deeply flawed in reality.
SB |
But Hungary and Poland continue to push at some of the basic rules of being in the EU (not that I agree with them) and is France complying with those budget deficit rules yet (no idea) ?. [Post edited 29 May 2019 10:34]
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:34 - May 29 with 855 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:29 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
"It’s reasonable to suspect that if Labour wanted to pursue a policy platform that was more interventionist than its 2017 manifesto, it would soon come into conflict with the EU. I say bring it on."
That is essentially saying ignore the rules and see what they do about it.
I don't think there will be any concessions from the EU on anything - there might have been previously but we have messed them around for 3 years - we have absolutely no good will.
There are many examples of them not bending the rules like the Cameron one I gave which started this whole mess. I'm struggling to think of one when they did but perhaps you are right.
I think you might be looking that article through rose tinted specs. It's appealing I agree but deeply flawed in reality.
SB |
"That is essentially saying ignore the rules and see what they do about it."
No it isn't. Well it's not how I read it anyway. Coming into conflict means challenging them. In no way does she say or imply we should just ignore the rules and see what they do about it.
I may well be reading the article through rose-tinted specs, but I think you're building a straw man. | |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:37 - May 29 with 834 views | Darth_Koont |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:32 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
Fair enough - poorly worded for me.
I don't think they are the level of concessions that the article is championing though and it was at a time when we still had some good will. I don't see why the EU would be helpful given the nonsense of the last 3 years.
SB |
But maybe a lot of our areas where we need to have concessions have now gone. The past three years have shown that we didn't really know what we were talking about half the time.
It's our lack of engagement in the reality (and detail) of the EU that's caused much of the problem. That's been the biggest problem with our one foot in, one foot out approach — we just haven't been paying attention. And with our insular approach we haven't been paying much attention to the world either. | |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:51 - May 29 with 787 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:32 - May 29 by StokieBlue |
Fair enough - poorly worded for me.
I don't think they are the level of concessions that the article is championing though and it was at a time when we still had some good will. I don't see why the EU would be helpful given the nonsense of the last 3 years.
SB |
I've said why - because they don't want their union splitting up, which the UK leaving could be the start of. | |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:54 - May 29 with 777 views | StokieBlue |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 10:51 - May 29 by BrixtonBlue |
I've said why - because they don't want their union splitting up, which the UK leaving could be the start of. |
I honestly don't think they are going to be as accommodating as you think after the mess we've caused. I think they are resigned to pushing ahead with greater integration without the troublesome British.
They might be though but for instance the French are going to be very hard to convince.
Guess we will see if it happens, I'd be happy if everything just went back to 2014 agreements.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 11:22 - May 29 with 728 views | No9 |
Essentially the UK now has no position. The (still) PM has negotated with the EU and has a deal that won't get through the HoP & onto the statute -
This is the second time the tories have been defeated on Europe since 2010. In reality they should step aside for a G.E. however the parties and members should remember the UK has signed an agreement & won't chnage it.
Any MP who thinks it can be re-opened should be aware it could well get worse than it is now. |  | | |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 12:15 - May 29 with 676 views | BackToRussia |
The problem is there's no left wing vision for the EU. Federal models of an EU army and more integration like this have been coopted by the centrists and marred by actions like government takeovers in Greece but there's no reason you couldn't have a socialist federation with socialist policies. But the left wing is very weak in the EU, its the smallest party in the EU parliament.
That's why people like Corbyn are pro Brexit, but given the country doesn't appear to actually want what it voted for, a new take was always going to be needed.
Unfortunately no one could see the wood for the trees. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 13:42 - May 29 with 609 views | braveblue |
Corbyn will agreed with anything that may be popular. | | | |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 13:45 - May 29 with 600 views | SpruceMoose |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 13:42 - May 29 by braveblue |
Corbyn will agreed with anything that may be popular. |
Well, that isn't true.
He's actually really principled. I just think he has the wrong principles. |  |
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| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 13:56 - May 29 with 587 views | Darth_Koont |
| Really good article on what Corbyn should do now over Europe on 13:45 - May 29 by SpruceMoose |
Well, that isn't true.
He's actually really principled. I just think he has the wrong principles. |
Agreed.
He wasn't necessarily stopping Labour from being a Remain party as it's only in recent months that the mood has shifted from the rank and file members and MPs respecting the referendum result to talking about a new referendum and even just remaining. But I think his Bennite view on Europe meant that he helped delay that swing and Labour could well have been more of a Remain opposition in Parliament when May was trying to plough on regardless.
So I think Labour could and should have been instigating that move rather than following it. | |
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