| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party 11:17 - May 31 with 19659 views | ElderGrizzly |
I wonder how quickly a member of the NEC is expelled vs someone voting Lib Dem is? |  | | |  |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:03 - Jun 1 with 903 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:41 - Jun 1 by GlasgowBlue |
“There are a couple of posters who knowingly and deliberately do it, flirt with language, get a kick out of doing so. ”
I wish I could up vote this by 1000 |
I wish I could downvote it by 1000. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are any antisemitics on TWTD and I find it offensive to suggest some get a kick out being so. I tend to see the good in people and I just don't believe that's true. |  |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:04 - Jun 1 with 902 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:56 - Jun 1 by JETPower |
If you assume anti-semitic tropes are the truth, and need to be 'got at', you more than likely are an anti-semite. If you assume 'openness and honesty' would be a threat to those oppose anti-semitism, rather than those who propogate it, you are likely an anti-semite. If you immediately have to qualify or caveat your alleged 'abhorrence' of anti-semitism, you are likely an anti-semite.
I have no 'national or political agenda', I really don't. Please stop this.
It is genuinely upsetting, and does not belong on a community football forum.
PS I am not engaging in a debate on this, for reasons of finding the sport of it offensive, as outlined earlier, so will be checking out and going for a nice walk. [Post edited 1 Jun 2019 11:00]
|
Why are you automatically calling them antisemitic tropes? I don't think these are. And you can read why.
But if you want to characterise the discussion as antisemitic from the start and won't actually address the validity of the claims then you're just shutting down the debate.
And frankly you can go feck yourself with your playground interpretation of what it really means when I say I abhor antisemitism. |  |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:05 - Jun 1 with 890 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:45 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
That's boll@cks, I'm afraid.
I write what I write because I think getting to the truth is important. Because as it stands, there is precious little openness and honesty surrounding this and it's a danger to free speech and democracy. I've even tried to de-Corbynify it by asking people to look at the state of play back in 2009 even when both sides of the HoC had pro-Israel leaderships. Since Gaza in 2014 and with Corbyn coming in the propaganda offensive has been ramped up significantly.
This criticism of the Israeli embassy's role, the lobbyists and the activists that work together is entirely legitimate. Just as it would be if we were talking about pro-Russian activities and influence behind the scenes. The only difference is that when people point it out they're immediately accused of antisemitism ... something that even goes against the IHRA definition and examples.
I abhor antisemitism. I also abhor shutting down of debate because it doesn't suit people's national and political agendas. |
Now this I'd like to upvote by 10,000. Well said. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:06 - Jun 1 with 886 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:57 - Jun 1 by Mugwump |
I'm Jewish and I find you offensive - and I'm not even a very good Jew
I've always voted Labour but no more. Dianne Abbot and David Lammy constantly go on about racism but ignore constant stereotyping of Jews.
Corbyn though is on a different level. |
I'm sorry you feel that way. It's certainly not my intention to offend anyone. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:13 - Jun 1 with 846 views | Mugwump |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:06 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
I'm sorry you feel that way. It's certainly not my intention to offend anyone. |
I appreciate that and I'm not good at debating and I don't like arguments so I'll leave it there.
I don't believe that you intend to offend. |  | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:17 - Jun 1 with 835 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:12 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
Hold on. I said I don't know what the evidence is for that and if it's wrong then Willsman should retract it.
But it's hardly a terrible accusation because as GB says it's perfectly natural. I'm not even saying it's particularly murky although I do think the overall pressure exerted on politicians and the media is very damaging to free speech and democracy.
Read Oborne's piece from 2009 and see if it rings any bells. After that you might be tempted to watch the more recent Al Jazeera documentary where this gets ramped up. And perhaps you wouldn't dismiss this side of the story so readily.
But nobody ever seems to have the time ... |
Yet you still have no time or inclination to even mention the evidence from the Rabbi representing the 68 who actually signed the letter, Rabbis being people normally considered as scholarly spiritual leaders & generally upright pillars of the community, but you keep mentioning ad infinitum the wild comments of someone notoriously unreliable & with a history of antisemitism.
Nobody is disputing that the Israeli embassy or their Govt. may get up to tricks at times in other instances, but in this instance there is the counterbalancing & what appears to be far more reliable & convincing evidence of Rabbi Rothschild & her colleagues. Which you keep ignoring. You give yourself away as glaringly one-sided. |  |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:23 - Jun 1 with 821 views | StokieBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:04 - May 31 by Darth_Koont |
That part I don't know about or what Willsman's evidence is for that but it fits how the Israeli embassy work.
However inconvenient it may be, the involvement of the Israeli embassy and the pro-Israel lobbyists is all out there if you weren't wilfully pretending that side of the story doesn't exist. |
That's also a false premise. There needs to be evidence of the claim, you can't just say that it fits a profile hence it's an acceptable accusation. He gave a very specific example and that requires specific evidence.
If you go down that route then any claim on any subject can be dismissed by the other side by saying it fits a pattern. That's not an acceptable way to debate anything in my opinion.
If he had said what he said and then given the evidence of the exact claim then there wouldn't even be a discussion to have here. The fact he's not produced any and thus has been suspended isn't encouraging.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:24 - Jun 1 with 818 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 09:29 - Jun 1 by BrixtonBlue |
"The Israeli Embassy may get up to other shenanigans, along with their Govt. at home, but that does not mean it necessarily applies in this case just because P. Willsman says it does."
Doesn't mean it doesn't apply either.
In fact if they get up to "shenanigans" at home I see no reason why they wouldn't abroad as well. It's not necessarily ani-semitic to suggest this. if we can't criticise anything they do, near or far, for fear of being branded anti-semitic, then they'll have carte blance to do whatever they like. That's very dangerous in itself.
I don't want to see or hear any anti-semitism but you have to be careful to not go too far the other way. |
So you're another one choosing to take on board the "evidence" of Willsman but choosing to iignore the evidence of Rabbi Rothschild & her colleagues. You give yourself away. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:27 - Jun 1 with 809 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:04 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
Why are you automatically calling them antisemitic tropes? I don't think these are. And you can read why.
But if you want to characterise the discussion as antisemitic from the start and won't actually address the validity of the claims then you're just shutting down the debate.
And frankly you can go feck yourself with your playground interpretation of what it really means when I say I abhor antisemitism. |
I haven't 'automatically' called them anti-semitic tropes at all. But that is what they are (the 68 rabbis for example) - demonstrably false claims, and anti-semitic.
I'm not going into detail about it with you, just as I wouldn't want to argue with someone repeating or defending homophobic tropes, I'd just find it upsetting. This is also not the place. It is an independent Ipswich Town site. There are plenty of forums and Facebook groups available to discuss the merit of this anti-semitic trope or that one. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me, but there are plenty of spaces for it. not trying to shut anyone down, just trying to avoid feeling despair every time I log on to TWTD.
Please do consider you might be wrong on this. Just consider it. |  | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:30 - Jun 1 with 803 views | lowhouseblue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 10:45 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
That's boll@cks, I'm afraid.
I write what I write because I think getting to the truth is important. Because as it stands, there is precious little openness and honesty surrounding this and it's a danger to free speech and democracy. I've even tried to de-Corbynify it by asking people to look at the state of play back in 2009 even when both sides of the HoC had pro-Israel leaderships. Since Gaza in 2014 and with Corbyn coming in the propaganda offensive has been ramped up significantly.
This criticism of the Israeli embassy's role, the lobbyists and the activists that work together is entirely legitimate. Just as it would be if we were talking about pro-Russian activities and influence behind the scenes. The only difference is that when people point it out they're immediately accused of antisemitism ... something that even goes against the IHRA definition and examples.
I abhor antisemitism. I also abhor shutting down of debate because it doesn't suit people's national and political agendas. |
again you're being dishonest and trying to face both ways.
there is nothing wrong with criticising israel or it's embassy. no one disputes that the embassy lobbies - if there's evidence it may well lobby, more than, more effectively than, or less ethically than other countries / embassies. you can post that to your hearts content. fill your boots.
but what is unacceptable - and which is an old anti-semitic trope - is to say that jewish british citizens act on behalf of or under the direction of israel. throughout this thread you have flirted with this, supported it, said it's 'accurate' or said that's what these sort of people do. it's a disgrace and it shouldn't be on this site.
you are intelligent enough to understand the difference between criticising israeli embassy lobbying and accusing uk jews of being controlled by israel. so stop deliberately mixing up the two and using weasel words to imply and support the later. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:31 - Jun 1 with 801 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:17 - Jun 1 by Ryorry |
Yet you still have no time or inclination to even mention the evidence from the Rabbi representing the 68 who actually signed the letter, Rabbis being people normally considered as scholarly spiritual leaders & generally upright pillars of the community, but you keep mentioning ad infinitum the wild comments of someone notoriously unreliable & with a history of antisemitism.
Nobody is disputing that the Israeli embassy or their Govt. may get up to tricks at times in other instances, but in this instance there is the counterbalancing & what appears to be far more reliable & convincing evidence of Rabbi Rothschild & her colleagues. Which you keep ignoring. You give yourself away as glaringly one-sided. |
I've repeatedly said I don't know about that part. And Willsman's comments don't include any of his supporting evidence.
The rabbi may know for a fact that the Israeli embassy wasn't involved at all but maybe not if she wasn't the one who started the letter. And I don't think this is a problem in itself anyway.
This is more that it's being jumped on as antisemitic from the start when there certainly is evidence for the first parts, and there may be for the last part too.
If anyone could be bothered to look. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:36 - Jun 1 with 788 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:23 - Jun 1 by StokieBlue |
That's also a false premise. There needs to be evidence of the claim, you can't just say that it fits a profile hence it's an acceptable accusation. He gave a very specific example and that requires specific evidence.
If you go down that route then any claim on any subject can be dismissed by the other side by saying it fits a pattern. That's not an acceptable way to debate anything in my opinion.
If he had said what he said and then given the evidence of the exact claim then there wouldn't even be a discussion to have here. The fact he's not produced any and thus has been suspended isn't encouraging.
SB |
Quite. Furthermore, DK actually weakens the case for criticising the Israeli embassy (and Govt.) where that is warranted & supported by real evidence, by mixing in such wild & unsubstantiated claims from obviously dodgy sources. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:41 - Jun 1 with 775 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:03 - Jun 1 by BrixtonBlue |
I wish I could downvote it by 1000. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are any antisemitics on TWTD and I find it offensive to suggest some get a kick out being so. I tend to see the good in people and I just don't believe that's true. |
There's a fine line between carelessness or complacency and being willfully offensive. I hope you're right. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:49 - Jun 1 with 760 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:31 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
I've repeatedly said I don't know about that part. And Willsman's comments don't include any of his supporting evidence.
The rabbi may know for a fact that the Israeli embassy wasn't involved at all but maybe not if she wasn't the one who started the letter. And I don't think this is a problem in itself anyway.
This is more that it's being jumped on as antisemitic from the start when there certainly is evidence for the first parts, and there may be for the last part too.
If anyone could be bothered to look. |
"And Willsman's comments don't include any of his supporting evidence."
You're at it again! "Any of his supporting evidence - skilful silky implication being that he actually had some - which he pretty obviously didn't or he'd have revealed it by now!
Does occur to me that you're so far entrenched in your position that you're genuinely deluding yourself re your supposed objectivity. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:52 - Jun 1 with 754 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:30 - Jun 1 by lowhouseblue |
again you're being dishonest and trying to face both ways.
there is nothing wrong with criticising israel or it's embassy. no one disputes that the embassy lobbies - if there's evidence it may well lobby, more than, more effectively than, or less ethically than other countries / embassies. you can post that to your hearts content. fill your boots.
but what is unacceptable - and which is an old anti-semitic trope - is to say that jewish british citizens act on behalf of or under the direction of israel. throughout this thread you have flirted with this, supported it, said it's 'accurate' or said that's what these sort of people do. it's a disgrace and it shouldn't be on this site.
you are intelligent enough to understand the difference between criticising israeli embassy lobbying and accusing uk jews of being controlled by israel. so stop deliberately mixing up the two and using weasel words to imply and support the later. |
I have posted it but you studiously avoid it. That gives you free rein to reject claims as antisemitic tropes.
And it's no secret that most UK Jewish organisations and many prominent representatives promote Israel's interests. They have every right to be pro-Israel and work with the embassy. From the Board of Deputies and the UK Zionist Federation to the Jewish Labour Movement or the CFI and LFI.
But when they become tacit supporters of Israeli policy and reject criticism as antisemitic, I have a real issue. In fact, there's probably more dissent and acceptance of criticism towards these policies in Israel itself than there is in the UK. Which does us as a democratic nation no favours and we should be able to question whether the links to the embassy create more harm than good. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:57 - Jun 1 with 736 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:49 - Jun 1 by Ryorry |
"And Willsman's comments don't include any of his supporting evidence."
You're at it again! "Any of his supporting evidence - skilful silky implication being that he actually had some - which he pretty obviously didn't or he'd have revealed it by now!
Does occur to me that you're so far entrenched in your position that you're genuinely deluding yourself re your supposed objectivity. |
There is evidence for the first two parts. I don't know about the letter so Willsman or someone else has to say what that's based on.
My point is that the Israeli embassy's involvement there isn't a leap given how they operate. If it's not true then Willsman should retract that part and apologise. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:59 - Jun 1 with 729 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:57 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
There is evidence for the first two parts. I don't know about the letter so Willsman or someone else has to say what that's based on.
My point is that the Israeli embassy's involvement there isn't a leap given how they operate. If it's not true then Willsman should retract that part and apologise. |
And so should you. Look forward to it. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:00 - Jun 1 with 725 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:27 - Jun 1 by JETPower |
I haven't 'automatically' called them anti-semitic tropes at all. But that is what they are (the 68 rabbis for example) - demonstrably false claims, and anti-semitic.
I'm not going into detail about it with you, just as I wouldn't want to argue with someone repeating or defending homophobic tropes, I'd just find it upsetting. This is also not the place. It is an independent Ipswich Town site. There are plenty of forums and Facebook groups available to discuss the merit of this anti-semitic trope or that one. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me, but there are plenty of spaces for it. not trying to shut anyone down, just trying to avoid feeling despair every time I log on to TWTD.
Please do consider you might be wrong on this. Just consider it. |
No seriously. Go feck yourself. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:03 - Jun 1 with 716 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:57 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
There is evidence for the first two parts. I don't know about the letter so Willsman or someone else has to say what that's based on.
My point is that the Israeli embassy's involvement there isn't a leap given how they operate. If it's not true then Willsman should retract that part and apologise. |
 | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:04 - Jun 1 with 707 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:03 - Jun 1 by Ryorry |
|
I know how you feel. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:09 - Jun 1 with 698 views | JETPower |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:00 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
No seriously. Go feck yourself. |
Thought as much. | | | |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:13 - Jun 1 with 689 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:24 - Jun 1 by Ryorry |
So you're another one choosing to take on board the "evidence" of Willsman but choosing to iignore the evidence of Rabbi Rothschild & her colleagues. You give yourself away. |
You're putting words in my mouth. Please stop. You're talking about a specific case, I was clearly talking in general terms. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:13 - Jun 1 with 689 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 11:23 - Jun 1 by StokieBlue |
That's also a false premise. There needs to be evidence of the claim, you can't just say that it fits a profile hence it's an acceptable accusation. He gave a very specific example and that requires specific evidence.
If you go down that route then any claim on any subject can be dismissed by the other side by saying it fits a pattern. That's not an acceptable way to debate anything in my opinion.
If he had said what he said and then given the evidence of the exact claim then there wouldn't even be a discussion to have here. The fact he's not produced any and thus has been suspended isn't encouraging.
SB |
I'm not saying that Stokie. It's an unacceptable accusation if it doesn't have evidence to back it up.
I'm only countering people saying that part is made up without even hearing if there is evidence to support it. My "pattern" comments are just to make clear that it's not on face value a crazy accusation. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:16 - Jun 1 with 681 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:13 - Jun 1 by BrixtonBlue |
You're putting words in my mouth. Please stop. You're talking about a specific case, I was clearly talking in general terms. |
Not "clearly" at all I'm afraid, but apols for misinterpreting. | |
| |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:19 - Jun 1 with 676 views | Ryorry |
| Another day, a little bit more anti-semitism in the Labour party on 12:13 - Jun 1 by Darth_Koont |
I'm not saying that Stokie. It's an unacceptable accusation if it doesn't have evidence to back it up.
I'm only countering people saying that part is made up without even hearing if there is evidence to support it. My "pattern" comments are just to make clear that it's not on face value a crazy accusation. |
Yet you still ignore the evidence that is there actually in front of your eyes on p.1 (Rabbi Rotschild's tweet).
I give up, you can take a horse to water etc. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
