| D-Day - Russia 19:33 - Jun 6 with 5595 views | Kropotkin123 |
D-Day is undeniably a huge deal in the history of our nation. As many on here who have shared their families personal stories highlight.
But to not invite Russia, regardless of whether we like them as a country and Putin as a person, is a shame on us and the West. 25million dead and holding a single front sinse '41.
Without them holding the other line it is doubtful we would have been successful and certainly would have been at a much greater cost.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48548200 |  |
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| D-Day - Russia on 19:36 - Jun 6 with 4570 views | Coastalblue |
I'm not sure I'd see it as a slight, I think a lot has been said today in the coverage with regards to Russia and they are almost certainly one of the reasons so many were so keen to go ahead with D Day when they did.
They weren't part of that battle though, even if they were engaged with the Nazis elsewhere. |  |
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| D-Day - Russia on 19:37 - Jun 6 with 4563 views | StokieBlue |
Agree entirely with regards to the war as a whole but it's not really applicable to D-Day itself. I think you are confusing a specific event with the whole. Happy to be corrected if wrong.
The eternal flame war memorial in St Petersburg is a must visit for anyone going there.
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| D-Day - Russia on 19:47 - Jun 6 with 4538 views | Kropotkin123 |
As one of their journalists said in the BBC article - "There wouldn't even have been a Normandy landing if it hadn't been for the Soviet soldiers who'd died from 1941 onwards in the fight against fascism"
Putin has been invited in the past. And to not recognise the significance by formally inviting them is insulting. Which is why they are clearly pissed in all their media coverage | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 20:43 - Jun 6 with 4460 views | Ftnfwest |
It’s absolutely true that the real war was fought in the east but at Kursk the Germans called off their initial advance because the allies had opened an initial second front in Sicily |  | | |
| D-Day - Russia on 21:41 - Jun 6 with 4394 views | flimflam |
| D-Day - Russia on 19:47 - Jun 6 by Kropotkin123 |
As one of their journalists said in the BBC article - "There wouldn't even have been a Normandy landing if it hadn't been for the Soviet soldiers who'd died from 1941 onwards in the fight against fascism"
Putin has been invited in the past. And to not recognise the significance by formally inviting them is insulting. Which is why they are clearly pissed in all their media coverage |
And Russia would have been crushed if not for the convoys we sent at the loss of many ships and sailors to keep them supplied.
D Day is nothing to do with Russia. |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| D-Day - Russia on 22:05 - Jun 6 with 4348 views | GeoffSentence |
I wonder if they would have got an invite if they hadn't used Novichick in Salisbury.
Feckers can hardly complain about being snubbed if they veer so wildly away from international norms. |  |
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| D-Day - Russia on 22:25 - Jun 6 with 4316 views | WeWereZombies |
| D-Day - Russia on 21:41 - Jun 6 by flimflam |
And Russia would have been crushed if not for the convoys we sent at the loss of many ships and sailors to keep them supplied.
D Day is nothing to do with Russia. |
It is debatable how vital the supplies to the Soviet Union were but they had great symbolic value. The greater strategic impact of the convoys in tying up Nazi vessels and destroying U-boats was a significant factor in reducing the damage to merchant fleets in the Atlantic and around Scandinavia. In fact there is an argument that very little got through to Leningrad because the trains carrying the goods were comprehensively bombed by the Nazis, this again is a demonstration of how Nazi air power was drawn away from other areas although this is unlikely to have been a strategic intention. Moscow, Stalingrad and other eastern cities received very little in the way of supplies from Archangel and Murmansk. The interdependence of the theatres of war during World War Two is a very complex issue on which it is often impossible to make definitive judgements. |  |
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| D-Day - Russia on 22:58 - Jun 6 with 4259 views | Churchman |
| D-Day - Russia on 22:05 - Jun 6 by GeoffSentence |
I wonder if they would have got an invite if they hadn't used Novichick in Salisbury.
Feckers can hardly complain about being snubbed if they veer so wildly away from international norms. |
I get what you are saying and I do wonder. But DDay was about the countries that took part in that event. Possibly the single most important day on the 20c.
Yes, the Russian sacrifice bled dry the most powerful army the world has ever seen and what they did deserves more recognition, but DDay and the western countries literally shaped the following 75 years - in my view |  | | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 06:47 - Jun 7 with 4200 views | jimmyvet |
How many times in the past few decades have Russia invited western leaders to commemorate any events during 2nd world war? Why are you trying again to undermine the sacrifices of young men and women made 75 years ago with cheap political point scoring because that’s clearly what you are doing? And it’s just not necessary. |  | | |
| D-Day - Russia on 07:11 - Jun 7 with 4168 views | WeWereZombies |
| D-Day - Russia on 06:47 - Jun 7 by jimmyvet |
How many times in the past few decades have Russia invited western leaders to commemorate any events during 2nd world war? Why are you trying again to undermine the sacrifices of young men and women made 75 years ago with cheap political point scoring because that’s clearly what you are doing? And it’s just not necessary. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-37097526
I put in for one of these medals for my uncle (he already had an Arctic Star) but never heard anything from the Russian Embassy. However I did see that they held a ceremonies in Inverness, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. Perhaps they were only interested in veterans who were still mobile. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 07:28 - Jun 7 with 4151 views | jimmyvet |
| D-Day - Russia on 07:11 - Jun 7 by WeWereZombies |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-37097526
I put in for one of these medals for my uncle (he already had an Arctic Star) but never heard anything from the Russian Embassy. However I did see that they held a ceremonies in Inverness, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. Perhaps they were only interested in veterans who were still mobile. |
That’s fantastic by the way and you must be very proud of your uncle. | | | |
| D-Day - Russia on 07:47 - Jun 7 with 4112 views | pbishop1799 |
Our debt to the Soviet/Russian people remains unpayable. |  | | |
| D-Day - Russia on 08:27 - Jun 7 with 4072 views | BigManBlue |
I do think that we tend to massively underestimate the role of the USSR in the war, though I can't make up my mind whether this is an instance of that or not (not aiming that comment at anyone here personally, but as a culture and in our shared historiography of the war I think we really under-emphasise the decisiveness of the war in the East).
That said, the Russians I have known think of our involvement as a sort of footnote at best when they think about the "Great Patriotic War", and at worst a ploy to limit Soviet power in Europe afterwards (though this tends to be more prevalent among older people these days). So I suppose that it works both ways, is what I'm trying to say, and nations will always choose as objects of commemoration and remembrance the events that involved them most directly. |  |
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| D-Day - Russia on 08:54 - Jun 7 with 4035 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| D-Day - Russia on 19:36 - Jun 6 by Coastalblue |
I'm not sure I'd see it as a slight, I think a lot has been said today in the coverage with regards to Russia and they are almost certainly one of the reasons so many were so keen to go ahead with D Day when they did.
They weren't part of that battle though, even if they were engaged with the Nazis elsewhere. |
Not part of the battle???? The western front was almost entirely devoid of competent German troops beause the vast majority were involved in a far greater battle for survival on the eastern front. Just about the only competent battle group facing the allies were a massively underequipped SS Hitler Jugend division - average age 16. It was a cynical political decision by the western allies to allow the Russians to endure slaughter on an unimaignable scale in 1942, 1943 and 1944 just so the allies had a virtually unopposed front to invade. The actual D-Da (at least one year too late)y was less dangerous to take part in than the rehearsals. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:05 - Jun 7 with 4019 views | WeWereZombies |
| D-Day - Russia on 08:54 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Not part of the battle???? The western front was almost entirely devoid of competent German troops beause the vast majority were involved in a far greater battle for survival on the eastern front. Just about the only competent battle group facing the allies were a massively underequipped SS Hitler Jugend division - average age 16. It was a cynical political decision by the western allies to allow the Russians to endure slaughter on an unimaignable scale in 1942, 1943 and 1944 just so the allies had a virtually unopposed front to invade. The actual D-Da (at least one year too late)y was less dangerous to take part in than the rehearsals. |
I think things were still a bit 'rainy day' in Britain during 1942 and 1943 actually. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:21 - Jun 7 with 3992 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| D-Day - Russia on 08:27 - Jun 7 by BigManBlue |
I do think that we tend to massively underestimate the role of the USSR in the war, though I can't make up my mind whether this is an instance of that or not (not aiming that comment at anyone here personally, but as a culture and in our shared historiography of the war I think we really under-emphasise the decisiveness of the war in the East).
That said, the Russians I have known think of our involvement as a sort of footnote at best when they think about the "Great Patriotic War", and at worst a ploy to limit Soviet power in Europe afterwards (though this tends to be more prevalent among older people these days). So I suppose that it works both ways, is what I'm trying to say, and nations will always choose as objects of commemoration and remembrance the events that involved them most directly. |
We tend to forget that Britain largely opted out of the war in Europe, ironic as it was actually us who declared war on Germany in a symbolic and somewhat arrogant show of solidarity with Poland, the invasion of which we could do absolutely nothing about (nor any country closer to home as it turned out). The idea that a crumbling German war machine backed by a busted economy could defend the entire coastline with no navy or air force was blatantly absurd in 1943 let alone 1944. Very helpful for the USA to delay things in establishing a new world order. And if Montgomery had not been allowed to halt Patton's near unopposed charge to Germany on a broad front and create the delusional narrow front disaster further north, then the Americans would have possibly been able to liberate far more of Europe - although the plan was almost certainly always to allow Russia the armageddon of the Battle for Berlin. And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan. You wont find much media coveragethis week of another battle that raged this week 77 years ago which if anything had vasty more significance than D-Day - the Battle of Midway. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:30 - Jun 7 with 3979 views | StokieBlue |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:21 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
We tend to forget that Britain largely opted out of the war in Europe, ironic as it was actually us who declared war on Germany in a symbolic and somewhat arrogant show of solidarity with Poland, the invasion of which we could do absolutely nothing about (nor any country closer to home as it turned out). The idea that a crumbling German war machine backed by a busted economy could defend the entire coastline with no navy or air force was blatantly absurd in 1943 let alone 1944. Very helpful for the USA to delay things in establishing a new world order. And if Montgomery had not been allowed to halt Patton's near unopposed charge to Germany on a broad front and create the delusional narrow front disaster further north, then the Americans would have possibly been able to liberate far more of Europe - although the plan was almost certainly always to allow Russia the armageddon of the Battle for Berlin. And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan. You wont find much media coveragethis week of another battle that raged this week 77 years ago which if anything had vasty more significance than D-Day - the Battle of Midway. |
"And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan."
Whilst Russia made immense sacrifices in Europe I think that's rather overstating it with regards to Japan don't you?
Given they surrendered on the same day as the bombing of Nagasaki that's probably got more to do with it that some fear of the Russians.
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:45 - Jun 7 with 3960 views | WeWereZombies |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:30 - Jun 7 by StokieBlue |
"And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan."
Whilst Russia made immense sacrifices in Europe I think that's rather overstating it with regards to Japan don't you?
Given they surrendered on the same day as the bombing of Nagasaki that's probably got more to do with it that some fear of the Russians.
SB |
It is a moot point amongst historians:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/08/06/commentary/japan-surrender-world | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:48 - Jun 7 with 3957 views | StokieBlue |
Interesting, thanks.
This is far from my specialist subject.
SB | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 09:59 - Jun 7 with 3948 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:30 - Jun 7 by StokieBlue |
"And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan."
Whilst Russia made immense sacrifices in Europe I think that's rather overstating it with regards to Japan don't you?
Given they surrendered on the same day as the bombing of Nagasaki that's probably got more to do with it that some fear of the Russians.
SB |
Not at all. The reason the americans dropped the bomb on Nagasaki was because Honshu was covered in cloud that day and Nagasaki was a secondary target. they wanted to evaluate which was the most effective of the two types of nuclear bomb they had developed was more effective. Only one type had been previously tested - and five cities had been earmarked from years previously for destruction and were spared 'conventional' bombing, which to the americans meant carpet bombing with napalm bomblets. These each spat out 100 feet of unextinguishable flame. 1000 bomblets in a B-29 bombers flying untroubled and unopposed in fleets of 200 to 300, each capable of dropping 100,000 feet of flame into a small area of human habitation. 20 to 30 million feet of unextinguishable flame. On one night in March 1945 the americans laid waste to 12 square miles of Tokyo in a devastating firestorm (population 100,000 people per square mile). The next night they went back and did it again, despite the smell of burning human flesh being so strong one mile up in the air that air crews were forced to don oxygen masks to prevent vomiting. Nobody knows how many died in two nights of utterly appalling carnage - do the maths, then wonder if the offical death toll of 80,000 is a bit of a porky. Two months later the americans were preparing to put Nazis on trial for war crimes. America ended the war because they wanted to halt commie expansion eastwards - and the Russian declaration of war meant speeding things up a bit. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 10:02 - Jun 7 with 3943 views | StokieBlue |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:59 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Not at all. The reason the americans dropped the bomb on Nagasaki was because Honshu was covered in cloud that day and Nagasaki was a secondary target. they wanted to evaluate which was the most effective of the two types of nuclear bomb they had developed was more effective. Only one type had been previously tested - and five cities had been earmarked from years previously for destruction and were spared 'conventional' bombing, which to the americans meant carpet bombing with napalm bomblets. These each spat out 100 feet of unextinguishable flame. 1000 bomblets in a B-29 bombers flying untroubled and unopposed in fleets of 200 to 300, each capable of dropping 100,000 feet of flame into a small area of human habitation. 20 to 30 million feet of unextinguishable flame. On one night in March 1945 the americans laid waste to 12 square miles of Tokyo in a devastating firestorm (population 100,000 people per square mile). The next night they went back and did it again, despite the smell of burning human flesh being so strong one mile up in the air that air crews were forced to don oxygen masks to prevent vomiting. Nobody knows how many died in two nights of utterly appalling carnage - do the maths, then wonder if the offical death toll of 80,000 is a bit of a porky. Two months later the americans were preparing to put Nazis on trial for war crimes. America ended the war because they wanted to halt commie expansion eastwards - and the Russian declaration of war meant speeding things up a bit. |
Whilst all being true I'm not sure how that counters the point?
The target is irrelevant, it's the ability to destroy an entire city with a single bomb and a single plane that is important. Firestorms required much more material from the US side and could possibly be defended against.
The last line has nothing to do with what we were discussing.
As an aside, could you use some paragraphs? It's really difficult to read that wall of text and take it in.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| D-Day - Russia on 13:03 - Jun 7 with 3882 views | Kropotkin123 |
| D-Day - Russia on 06:47 - Jun 7 by jimmyvet |
How many times in the past few decades have Russia invited western leaders to commemorate any events during 2nd world war? Why are you trying again to undermine the sacrifices of young men and women made 75 years ago with cheap political point scoring because that’s clearly what you are doing? And it’s just not necessary. |
I'm not scoring points. I don't like Russia (the way it acts) and I dislike Putin. I believe that the sacrifices of 25million Russians are being overlooked, specifically in relation to it facilitating D-Day. If it was our country that was overlooked, and the lives that were put on the line by my family, I'd be annoyed.
The real points scoring is not inviting them. What have the 25m Russians who gave their lives got to do with how Putin acts now. We are remembering the past, not the present. | |
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| D-Day - Russia on 13:25 - Jun 7 with 3863 views | Lesta_Tractor |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:59 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
Not at all. The reason the americans dropped the bomb on Nagasaki was because Honshu was covered in cloud that day and Nagasaki was a secondary target. they wanted to evaluate which was the most effective of the two types of nuclear bomb they had developed was more effective. Only one type had been previously tested - and five cities had been earmarked from years previously for destruction and were spared 'conventional' bombing, which to the americans meant carpet bombing with napalm bomblets. These each spat out 100 feet of unextinguishable flame. 1000 bomblets in a B-29 bombers flying untroubled and unopposed in fleets of 200 to 300, each capable of dropping 100,000 feet of flame into a small area of human habitation. 20 to 30 million feet of unextinguishable flame. On one night in March 1945 the americans laid waste to 12 square miles of Tokyo in a devastating firestorm (population 100,000 people per square mile). The next night they went back and did it again, despite the smell of burning human flesh being so strong one mile up in the air that air crews were forced to don oxygen masks to prevent vomiting. Nobody knows how many died in two nights of utterly appalling carnage - do the maths, then wonder if the offical death toll of 80,000 is a bit of a porky. Two months later the americans were preparing to put Nazis on trial for war crimes. America ended the war because they wanted to halt commie expansion eastwards - and the Russian declaration of war meant speeding things up a bit. |
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| D-Day - Russia on 14:10 - Jun 7 with 3826 views | Churchman |
| D-Day - Russia on 09:21 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
We tend to forget that Britain largely opted out of the war in Europe, ironic as it was actually us who declared war on Germany in a symbolic and somewhat arrogant show of solidarity with Poland, the invasion of which we could do absolutely nothing about (nor any country closer to home as it turned out). The idea that a crumbling German war machine backed by a busted economy could defend the entire coastline with no navy or air force was blatantly absurd in 1943 let alone 1944. Very helpful for the USA to delay things in establishing a new world order. And if Montgomery had not been allowed to halt Patton's near unopposed charge to Germany on a broad front and create the delusional narrow front disaster further north, then the Americans would have possibly been able to liberate far more of Europe - although the plan was almost certainly always to allow Russia the armageddon of the Battle for Berlin. And maybe, just maybe it is no surprise that the war in the Far East was over the instant Russia declared war on Japan. You wont find much media coveragethis week of another battle that raged this week 77 years ago which if anything had vasty more significance than D-Day - the Battle of Midway. |
Sorry, I disagree with much of this. Britain did not ‘opt out of the war in Europe’ in any way shape or form. To suggest that is to belittle what this country did 1939-1945. Neither was the declaration of war symbolic or arrogant. The events that followed 3 Sept 1939 through to 1945 proves that.
To describe the German army as crumbling and backed by a busted economy implies that all the allies had to do was walk into Europe any time it chose. Regardless of the mixed quality of the German army it is not the case and the idea it is belittles the contributions of so many brave men.
Attacking from the sea is hideously difficult. This was shown by an daily casualty rate on all sides of over 6000 - more than during Verdun or the Somme. If it was that easy the Germans would have done it in 1940.
Patton’s charge against the weakest German divisions was in danger of over reaching itself and offering opportunity for counter attack on its flanks. Patton was the most aggressive allied commander but that doesn’t always translate to best.
I have not read of any evidence that says the allies deliberately left Berlin to the Russians to take the casualties. I’d be interested in your sources for that. Lastly I don’t think Midway was more significant than DDay, but I’m fully aware it signalled the impending death of the IJN.
DDay involved just about everyone alive in this country and many others from across the world at the time. It signalled the impending end of the most evil form of fascism the world has ever seen. | | | |
| D-Day - Russia on 14:13 - Jun 7 with 3817 views | chicoazul |
The Russians weren't at D-Day Kropotkin. |  |
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