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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf 07:36 - Jun 13 with 19781 viewsSteve_M

Nothing confirmed yet.

https://www.apnews.com/2eab6e04422d48a99d6946c7e8d543d6

Still, I'm sure everyone can fit this to their existing prejudices.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 12:20 - Jun 15 with 2455 viewsBluesquid

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 10:27 - Jun 15 by BanksterDebtSlave

I really haven't. There are options other than US or Iran by the by.


Yep, there are.

“What is important about this meeting – and it is not in secret because there are many of those – is that this is an open meeting with representatives of leading Arab countries that are sitting down together with Israel in order to advance the common interest of war with Iran.”

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/iran-netanyahu-giuliani/
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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 15:52 - Jun 15 with 2384 viewsWeWereZombies

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 09:33 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

I don't think that's what he said?

It's the fact they are saying the US is to blame regardless of the circumstance or evidence.

SB


lowhouse has already answered for himself but I think my point stands. If we just accept vague intelligence without question we can end up losing military personnel in greater numbers and under controversial circumstances than if the best procedure is followed. The Conservatives would have served the United Kingdom better if they had provided more robust questioning on the dossier that the Blair administration presented to propel us into the Iraq War.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:03 - Jun 15 with 2377 viewsWeWereZombies

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 10:01 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

Yet no evidence at all is enough for many to accept the anti-US narrative.

The double-standards are quite remarkable.

SB


Looking through the rest of the thread the view that other parties may be responsible for whatever caused the tankers to catch fire and then for low quality footage accompanied by a soundtrack that contained assumptions to appear is tenable. However, anyone who has heard or seen documentaries on the United States intelligence mistakes that failed to apprehend Al Qaeda terrorists in the lead up to the attack on the Twin Towers in New York can appreciate that, especially after the turmoil that the Trump administration has caused in the agencies with dismissals and statements of no confidence, the security services can be spun to accept theoretical potentiality as irrefutable evidence (we even have one or two posters doing that in this thread).

I think allies in NATO are better allies if they ask an apparently aggrieved party to step back an think for minute. I also wonder (and I have taken the points about the 'loose cannon' Iranian Revolutionary Guard' on board) why Iran would attack a Japanese tanker when the Japanese Prime Minister is visiting Iran?

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:33 - Jun 15 with 2356 viewsNo9

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 10:10 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

Of course it's double standards. The video is irrelevant. The issue is that there is no actual evidence been produced against the US yet plenty of people are happy to accept it's them to blame. When evidence is produced supporting their position it's dismissed regardless. If you can't see that I can't help you - you aren't willing to examine things on merit.

As for video, I've not drawn a conclusion but it's pretty standard quality for drone footage isn't it?

SB


There is no evidence for anything is there?
I certainly have not disregarded anything.
Tanker construction makes it almost impossible for the damage seen to be caused by a limpet mine.
Tankers have double skin hull & heavy skantlings, there are at least three types of compartments; a) cargo & b) ballast and maybe coffer dams or voids + machinery space and accommodation.

The 'Iranian' vessel is not at the burning tanker is it?
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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:50 - Jun 15 with 2348 viewsNo9

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 10:32 - Jun 15 by azuremerlangus

Given Iran has form on this going back to the 80's and they are also getting up to no good around Yemen then it would be difficult to argue against this.

As for a stitch-up by the US, well it isn't very subtle even by their standards. If they are trying to justify ramping up action against Iran then the Straits is not the place to do it.


What 'form' does Iran have relative to the 80's?
The Iran / Iraq war commenced September 1980 when Iraq invaded Iran.
Iran initially accepted the UN peace but Iraq kept at it
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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:56 - Jun 15 with 2343 viewsBrixtonBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 09:08 - Jun 15 by GlasgowBlue

The thread is about the attack on two tankers in the gulf. The US and U.K. governments are pointing the fingers at Iran. One if the main stories in the BBD news this morning was Corbyn going into bat for his old paymasters.

BTR brought me up in a thread I wasn’t involved in. He used a quote I often use in relation to Mr Corbyn. I simply pointed out the relevance of the quote in relation to this story.

Is that simple enough for you or would you like me to draw pictures?


Are Iran old paymasters to France and Germany as well? They're also not ready to accept the US claims without further evidence.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:58 - Jun 15 with 2343 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 12:20 - Jun 15 by Bluesquid

Yep, there are.

“What is important about this meeting – and it is not in secret because there are many of those – is that this is an open meeting with representatives of leading Arab countries that are sitting down together with Israel in order to advance the common interest of war with Iran.”

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/iran-netanyahu-giuliani/


Goodness me.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 17:26 - Jun 15 with 2317 viewsWeWereZombies

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 16:56 - Jun 15 by BrixtonBlue

Are Iran old paymasters to France and Germany as well? They're also not ready to accept the US claims without further evidence.


For the sake of balance I think Germany at least have done a fair bit of trade with Iran over the last few decades. But then they do a fair bit of trade with a lot of nations:

https://www.reuters.com/article/germany-iran-exports-sanctions/german-exports-to

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 17:43 - Jun 15 with 2301 viewsNo9

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 17:26 - Jun 15 by WeWereZombies

For the sake of balance I think Germany at least have done a fair bit of trade with Iran over the last few decades. But then they do a fair bit of trade with a lot of nations:

https://www.reuters.com/article/germany-iran-exports-sanctions/german-exports-to


There are very strong links between Iran & Germany, it is more than just trade
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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 17:55 - Jun 15 with 2290 viewsfooters


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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 18:18 - Jun 15 with 2268 viewsBrixtonBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 17:26 - Jun 15 by WeWereZombies

For the sake of balance I think Germany at least have done a fair bit of trade with Iran over the last few decades. But then they do a fair bit of trade with a lot of nations:

https://www.reuters.com/article/germany-iran-exports-sanctions/german-exports-to


Not really what I meant - more in response to Glassers jumping on Corbyn (again) even though France and Germany have also said they're not happy with the evidence.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 18:26 - Jun 15 with 2256 viewsWeWereZombies

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 18:18 - Jun 15 by BrixtonBlue

Not really what I meant - more in response to Glassers jumping on Corbyn (again) even though France and Germany have also said they're not happy with the evidence.


True, I was thinking more on the lines of the 'obeying your foreign paymasters' tack that was put forward. In the case of Germany there is a lot of two way trade so the dependence is mutual but not vital from Germany's point of view. No9's point about other ties between Iran and Germany is pertinent too, demilitarisation put pressures on Germany and one of the ways out of that was to push defence spending as far as they could domestically to stay within the rules. Suspicions still existed that they were doing more elsewhere.

On the subject of contributing to foreign news and current affairs media I thought there were guidelines that Members of Parliament were supposed to adhere to but I would have to take a bit of time to research that and to be frank I am a bit too sleepy at the moment.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 19:58 - Jun 15 with 2216 viewsBackToRussia

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 09:41 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

It's dismissed as a fabrication.

It's like when some users questioned the reliability of the BBC report into the Uighur camps in China and even their existence/usage.

If it supports your argument then fine, otherwise it's a fabrication or media manipulation.

In this case is too early to determine what happened but minds are already made up. More information seems to be emerging today so we will see.

SB
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 9:43]


What we think is irrelevant.

The US is an interested party. If Iran released a video that implied they were innocent no doubt you'd be dismissing it.

Interesting that no one is mentioning how the captain of the ship claims projectiles came at the boat.
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 19:58]

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:04 - Jun 15 with 2206 viewsStokieBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 19:58 - Jun 15 by BackToRussia

What we think is irrelevant.

The US is an interested party. If Iran released a video that implied they were innocent no doubt you'd be dismissing it.

Interesting that no one is mentioning how the captain of the ship claims projectiles came at the boat.
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 19:58]


I would take the video on it's merits. I've not said it was Iran, you said it was the US based on nothing.

It wasn't the captain it was the owner of the company second hand. Nobody has dismissed it, it's been mentioned at length in the other thread. The same crew also said they saw an Iranian military ship nearby.

It's an interesting piece of information but human recollection is even more fallible than video that you don't seem to trust.

SB

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:09 - Jun 15 with 2199 viewsBackToRussia

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:04 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

I would take the video on it's merits. I've not said it was Iran, you said it was the US based on nothing.

It wasn't the captain it was the owner of the company second hand. Nobody has dismissed it, it's been mentioned at length in the other thread. The same crew also said they saw an Iranian military ship nearby.

It's an interesting piece of information but human recollection is even more fallible than video that you don't seem to trust.

SB


The BBC are reporting that its the captain, and crucially they are only the neutral party in the situation.

It's a given we don't know the truth, it's hardly an insightful point.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:15 - Jun 15 with 2189 viewsBrixtonBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:04 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

I would take the video on it's merits. I've not said it was Iran, you said it was the US based on nothing.

It wasn't the captain it was the owner of the company second hand. Nobody has dismissed it, it's been mentioned at length in the other thread. The same crew also said they saw an Iranian military ship nearby.

It's an interesting piece of information but human recollection is even more fallible than video that you don't seem to trust.

SB


I don't think it's about trusting video, it's that it's not conclusive proof they're Iranian.

It's wrong to dismiss it though, just as it would be wrong to dismiss eye-witness accounts because human recollection can be fallible.

I rest my case that Corbyn, the French and the Germans are right to urge caution and want more proof. The anti-Corbyn brigade haven't successfully answered these points - it's just another exercise in having a stick to beat him with.

Whatever he's said and done in the past, I can't believe anyone honestly can say he's not correct in this instance (at this point).

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 21:45 - Jun 15 with 2136 viewsStokieBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:09 - Jun 15 by BackToRussia

The BBC are reporting that its the captain, and crucially they are only the neutral party in the situation.

It's a given we don't know the truth, it's hardly an insightful point.


The Japanese press are clearly reporting it was the owner.

Are they biased? I don't believe the captain has given any interviews?

SB

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 21:48 - Jun 15 with 2129 viewsStokieBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 20:15 - Jun 15 by BrixtonBlue

I don't think it's about trusting video, it's that it's not conclusive proof they're Iranian.

It's wrong to dismiss it though, just as it would be wrong to dismiss eye-witness accounts because human recollection can be fallible.

I rest my case that Corbyn, the French and the Germans are right to urge caution and want more proof. The anti-Corbyn brigade haven't successfully answered these points - it's just another exercise in having a stick to beat him with.

Whatever he's said and done in the past, I can't believe anyone honestly can say he's not correct in this instance (at this point).


This is my point though.

Some posters fingered the US before any evidence was provided. When the video came out it was written off.

I've not dismissed either. You should be directing your posts to the unsavoury element who said it was the US immediately and without evidence.

Nobody seems to want to call them out on it so I will.

SB

Edit:. Have you got your threads mixed up? Nobody has mentioned JC in this one :).
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 22:09]

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 22:43 - Jun 15 with 2079 viewsBackToRussia

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 21:48 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

This is my point though.

Some posters fingered the US before any evidence was provided. When the video came out it was written off.

I've not dismissed either. You should be directing your posts to the unsavoury element who said it was the US immediately and without evidence.

Nobody seems to want to call them out on it so I will.

SB

Edit:. Have you got your threads mixed up? Nobody has mentioned JC in this one :).
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 22:09]


If I was on trial for armed robbery, and I had 30 convictions for armed robbery, what would your thoughts be about me going into trial?

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 22:58 - Jun 15 with 2063 viewsBackToRussia

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 22:43 - Jun 15 by BackToRussia

If I was on trial for armed robbery, and I had 30 convictions for armed robbery, what would your thoughts be about me going into trial?


Maybe just a case of history repeating itself?
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/23/world/26-iranians-seized-with-mine-vessel-mor

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:04 - Jun 15 with 2047 viewsStokieBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 22:43 - Jun 15 by BackToRussia

If I was on trial for armed robbery, and I had 30 convictions for armed robbery, what would your thoughts be about me going into trial?


You're trivialising an important point but since you want to do that I would say that the evidence should rule any thoughts.

You don't agree hence you make a judgement before anything is known. All I can say is that I would hope you weren't on the jury.

SB

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:05 - Jun 15 with 2043 viewsBrixtonBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 21:48 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

This is my point though.

Some posters fingered the US before any evidence was provided. When the video came out it was written off.

I've not dismissed either. You should be directing your posts to the unsavoury element who said it was the US immediately and without evidence.

Nobody seems to want to call them out on it so I will.

SB

Edit:. Have you got your threads mixed up? Nobody has mentioned JC in this one :).
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 22:09]


Not at all. Corbyn's been mentioned loads in this thread. Maybe you're the one mixed up?!

My point in both threads is Corbyn's (and the French and the German's) position is the correct one.

I agree nobody should be fingering anyone without evidence!
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 23:08]

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:09 - Jun 15 with 2033 viewsBackToRussia

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:04 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

You're trivialising an important point but since you want to do that I would say that the evidence should rule any thoughts.

You don't agree hence you make a judgement before anything is known. All I can say is that I would hope you weren't on the jury.

SB


Unfortunately for Iran, the US is judge and jury.

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:10 - Jun 15 with 2031 viewsStokieBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 22:58 - Jun 15 by BackToRussia

Maybe just a case of history repeating itself?
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/23/world/26-iranians-seized-with-mine-vessel-mor


Firstly it's once again an example from nearly 40 years ago, you seem to be ignoring everything I am saying.

Secondly, why do you accept the Iranian side of that story rather than the US one? It was found with mines on board and happened two months after the US ship Bridgeton was hit by a mine of Iranian construction.

So what is your actual point? Are you saying that was a false flag and the US staged it all? I am not hugely up with the incident so you'll have to elaborate on your point.

SB
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 23:11]

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Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:15 - Jun 15 with 2018 viewsBrixtonBlue

Iranian media claiming two tankers attacked in Gulf on 23:10 - Jun 15 by StokieBlue

Firstly it's once again an example from nearly 40 years ago, you seem to be ignoring everything I am saying.

Secondly, why do you accept the Iranian side of that story rather than the US one? It was found with mines on board and happened two months after the US ship Bridgeton was hit by a mine of Iranian construction.

So what is your actual point? Are you saying that was a false flag and the US staged it all? I am not hugely up with the incident so you'll have to elaborate on your point.

SB
[Post edited 15 Jun 2019 23:11]


"Secondly, why do you accept the Iranian side of that story rather than the US one?"

I think the problem here might be Trump. As soon as he says something definitely happened a red flag is hoisted in my brain.

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