| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? 14:08 - Jun 17 with 24158 views | SpruceMoose |
It's a yes from me. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:08 - Jun 17 with 3422 views | hampstead_blue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 18:37 - Jun 17 by Durovigutum |
How about if a believer said you had to believe or you're thrown in jail?
Has this country's Christian culture and foundation of our laws (Dawkins words,.not.mine) not put us in the position that you can make that statement and keep your liberty?
Compared to other nations where you can't? |
Believe of you will be thrown to the jailers.....
My point exactly.
If there were no religion then no person could force you to believe in some bloke called Mo who had a vision....Utter BS.
The whole thing utter BS.
Dawkins, Hitchens, et all have my vote. Religion is vile and cruel. What else will allow men to FGM young Jewish boys. Shall I go on?
Get a copy of Hitchen's 'God is not great'
End of ..... |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:10 - Jun 17 with 3419 views | Trequartista |
Of course not, anymore than if an atheist was PM |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:23 - Jun 17 with 3403 views | sparks |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 18:38 - Jun 17 by WeWereZombies |
Do not agree with the definitions in your first sentence, if you include atheist in your definition you could argue that you are a light atheist as opposed to a deep atheist but you are not agnostic, you have a steer on the subject. Likewise, the theist is a believer no matter how lacking in commitment and is not an agnostic.
For what it is worth I think that none of these positions has any validity, we are still gathering enough information and deciding how to process it before we can make a reasonable judgement. But it does make for an interesting journey and help us think about ethics and morality. |
There are various definitions- but thats certainly how I use them, and what is meant by a large segment of the more considered atheist community. You can reject the definitions- it makes very little difference so long as people know what is being meant and dont engage in equivocation fallacies. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:25 - Jun 17 with 3401 views | sparks |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 19:56 - Jun 17 by gordon |
If we were to take the example of Abeguwo, the rain goddess of New Guinea, I think it's fair to assume that we all lack belief in Abeguwo, and therefore are atheists in the context of this particular deity.
However, because (until I posted this comment) we had all never heard of Abeguwo, none of us could possibly have held the belief that Abeguwo didn't exist - we were simply unaware of the concept of Abeguwo.
Our atheism in this case could not have been informed by belief, and therefore to state that atheism is de facto a belief is incorrect. |
Atheism is the absence of belief- not the positive assertion of non belief.
A baby is an atheist, if we are getting into semantics. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:26]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:27 - Jun 17 with 3395 views | gordon |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:25 - Jun 17 by sparks |
Atheism is the absence of belief- not the positive assertion of non belief.
A baby is an atheist, if we are getting into semantics. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:26]
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Maybe the example wasn't clear, it was intended to demonstrate that atheism is an absence of belief. |  | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:28 - Jun 17 with 3391 views | sparks |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:27 - Jun 17 by gordon |
Maybe the example wasn't clear, it was intended to demonstrate that atheism is an absence of belief. |
Im agreeing | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:28 - Jun 17 with 3390 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:31 - Jun 17 by giant_stow |
Father Christmas magic doesn't work against modern science - we all know that, silly. |
Oi, stop using my name in vain.
Regards,
Nicholas Claus. |  |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:44 - Jun 17 with 3358 views | BlueBadger |
If they were genuinely interested in proper Christian values like looking after the sick and needy, turning the other cheek and judging not, lest ye be judged yourself, for instance, not particularly. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:44]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 22:29 - Jun 17 with 3332 views | WeWereZombies |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:23 - Jun 17 by sparks |
There are various definitions- but thats certainly how I use them, and what is meant by a large segment of the more considered atheist community. You can reject the definitions- it makes very little difference so long as people know what is being meant and dont engage in equivocation fallacies. |
If we are going to discuss all embracing concepts it is important to be precise in language. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 22:36 - Jun 17 with 3327 views | sparks |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 22:29 - Jun 17 by WeWereZombies |
If we are going to discuss all embracing concepts it is important to be precise in language. |
Its more important to understand the definitions and usage that people are employing... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 23:04 - Jun 17 with 3317 views | WeWereZombies |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 22:36 - Jun 17 by sparks |
Its more important to understand the definitions and usage that people are employing... |
OK, an atheist does not believe in God, a theist does believe in God and an agnostic is not prepared to take up a position. I do not think you can describe someone who has leanings towards no belief or towards a belief as an agnostic, they have moved towards an atheistic position in the former case and a faith in the latter although they are not as committed as the obviously pious.
Can a baby be regarded as having any of these positions when they have no ability to speak or to take in concepts? We could be in the territory of innate beliefs or the Noam Chomsky's theories about language and what gets brought i alongside language but I am going to have to let you make your mind up on that one, not my field and there is a lot to study and evaluate if you are going down that route.
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/08/are-kids-born-with-an-innate-belief-in-go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_acquisition_device | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 06:26 - Jun 18 with 3287 views | gordon |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 23:04 - Jun 17 by WeWereZombies |
OK, an atheist does not believe in God, a theist does believe in God and an agnostic is not prepared to take up a position. I do not think you can describe someone who has leanings towards no belief or towards a belief as an agnostic, they have moved towards an atheistic position in the former case and a faith in the latter although they are not as committed as the obviously pious.
Can a baby be regarded as having any of these positions when they have no ability to speak or to take in concepts? We could be in the territory of innate beliefs or the Noam Chomsky's theories about language and what gets brought i alongside language but I am going to have to let you make your mind up on that one, not my field and there is a lot to study and evaluate if you are going down that route.
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2014/08/are-kids-born-with-an-innate-belief-in-go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_acquisition_device |
A baby can't have knowledge of any of the different concepts of God out there, therefore must be an atheist.
An agnostic believes that the existence of any God or higher power or whatever you want to call it is fundamentally unknowable to us mere mortals. It's not being 'unprepared to take a position'. | | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 08:27 - Jun 18 with 3254 views | WeWereZombies |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 06:26 - Jun 18 by gordon |
A baby can't have knowledge of any of the different concepts of God out there, therefore must be an atheist.
An agnostic believes that the existence of any God or higher power or whatever you want to call it is fundamentally unknowable to us mere mortals. It's not being 'unprepared to take a position'. |
Oh dear, far too woolly. If you believe that the existence of God is unknowable then you have a belief and a position, you are not dithering and you are not an agnostic - you are either waiting for more evidence to arise or you believe that no conclusive evidence will ever arise. Those are both firm positions that do not preclude a faith - there is a branch of Quakerism that allows for no belief in God and Zen Buddhism all but says that those who grasp cannot know, they will always be pushing away what they seek (and there you have it, a belief that requires no belief).
But you have called me out, I am chasing down those who claim to be agnostic because I regard them as not having thought the problem through enough or who just want to blind side the issue with declamitare lingua... | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 08:59 - Jun 18 with 3240 views | Durovigutum |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 20:08 - Jun 17 by hampstead_blue |
Believe of you will be thrown to the jailers.....
My point exactly.
If there were no religion then no person could force you to believe in some bloke called Mo who had a vision....Utter BS.
The whole thing utter BS.
Dawkins, Hitchens, et all have my vote. Religion is vile and cruel. What else will allow men to FGM young Jewish boys. Shall I go on?
Get a copy of Hitchen's 'God is not great'
End of ..... |
But Stalin was a nice, cuddly man well grounded in his Atheism and with the best interests of his fellow man at his heart?
Pol Pot, another sterling example?
Yes, there are examples from the other side.
I don't think the problem is God - I think the problem is humans.
If humans lived the way that scriptures decreed - we would have a very pleasant society. Seeing as we can't even agree something like Brexit that is apolitical I think the common problem is confirmed. |  | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:05 - Jun 18 with 3223 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 08:59 - Jun 18 by Durovigutum |
But Stalin was a nice, cuddly man well grounded in his Atheism and with the best interests of his fellow man at his heart?
Pol Pot, another sterling example?
Yes, there are examples from the other side.
I don't think the problem is God - I think the problem is humans.
If humans lived the way that scriptures decreed - we would have a very pleasant society. Seeing as we can't even agree something like Brexit that is apolitical I think the common problem is confirmed. |
If we lived according to the scriptures we'd accept corporal punishment for things like adultery and being gay. Of course if you only pick the nice bits of Christianity it'd be lovely, but let's not ignore that all religious texts contain some pretty horrific stuff too. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:05 - Jun 18 with 3236 views | Durovigutum |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 08:27 - Jun 18 by WeWereZombies |
Oh dear, far too woolly. If you believe that the existence of God is unknowable then you have a belief and a position, you are not dithering and you are not an agnostic - you are either waiting for more evidence to arise or you believe that no conclusive evidence will ever arise. Those are both firm positions that do not preclude a faith - there is a branch of Quakerism that allows for no belief in God and Zen Buddhism all but says that those who grasp cannot know, they will always be pushing away what they seek (and there you have it, a belief that requires no belief).
But you have called me out, I am chasing down those who claim to be agnostic because I regard them as not having thought the problem through enough or who just want to blind side the issue with declamitare lingua... |
Surely it's easiest to call an agnostic "undecided", an atheist decided and there's no God, a theist decided and there is a God, an anti-theist hostile to the belief in God and a religious fundamentalist hostile to everything including God except for a tiny element of focus.
And to prove that humans are the problem, not God, all of the above positions are repeatable with Brexit. | | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:06 - Jun 18 with 3216 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:05 - Jun 18 by Durovigutum |
Surely it's easiest to call an agnostic "undecided", an atheist decided and there's no God, a theist decided and there is a God, an anti-theist hostile to the belief in God and a religious fundamentalist hostile to everything including God except for a tiny element of focus.
And to prove that humans are the problem, not God, all of the above positions are repeatable with Brexit. |
God can't be the problem, he doesn't exist other than as a man made construct. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:08 - Jun 18 with 3225 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 18:41 - Jun 17 by Durovigutum |
Agnostic
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
This is the neutral position, surely?
Atheism
noun
disbelief in the existence of God or gods.
So surely an arrived at belief? |
See what I mean about how desperate some atheists get? |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:09 - Jun 18 with 3223 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:06 - Jun 18 by Herbivore |
God can't be the problem, he doesn't exist other than as a man made construct. |
Exactly.
A lovely little tidbit from the late, great Douglas Adams:
"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
"'But,' says Man, 'The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:14 - Jun 18 with 3213 views | Durovigutum |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:05 - Jun 18 by Herbivore |
If we lived according to the scriptures we'd accept corporal punishment for things like adultery and being gay. Of course if you only pick the nice bits of Christianity it'd be lovely, but let's not ignore that all religious texts contain some pretty horrific stuff too. |
Yes. But how do we move forward?
There is a "Universal truth" of humanity shared by 90% plus of scripture and non-religious philosophical writing. There are elements of humanism that are interesting but don't align. There are aspects of "right to live" or "right to die" that are difficult regardless of religious or political views, including burden on society questions. There are concepts around environment or animal welfare and sentience and meat eating. There have been negative impacts to the increasing secularisation of society including a reduction in the community spirit and the increase in mental health issues, there have been certain positives in terms of allowing greater freedom to certain communities of people dogmatic religion was hostile to.
How do we bundle these things up in a modern society? Is this a similar question to how are we governed in the 21st century? | | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:19 - Jun 18 with 3195 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:14 - Jun 18 by Durovigutum |
Yes. But how do we move forward?
There is a "Universal truth" of humanity shared by 90% plus of scripture and non-religious philosophical writing. There are elements of humanism that are interesting but don't align. There are aspects of "right to live" or "right to die" that are difficult regardless of religious or political views, including burden on society questions. There are concepts around environment or animal welfare and sentience and meat eating. There have been negative impacts to the increasing secularisation of society including a reduction in the community spirit and the increase in mental health issues, there have been certain positives in terms of allowing greater freedom to certain communities of people dogmatic religion was hostile to.
How do we bundle these things up in a modern society? Is this a similar question to how are we governed in the 21st century? |
Linking an increase in poor mental health with a decline in religious belief is pretty spurious.
We move forward by doing away with God and putting humanity at the centre of our lives and values. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:44 - Jun 18 with 3189 views | WeWereZombies |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:05 - Jun 18 by Durovigutum |
Surely it's easiest to call an agnostic "undecided", an atheist decided and there's no God, a theist decided and there is a God, an anti-theist hostile to the belief in God and a religious fundamentalist hostile to everything including God except for a tiny element of focus.
And to prove that humans are the problem, not God, all of the above positions are repeatable with Brexit. |
It may be easier but it is not precise, and the rest of your opening sentence descends into allowing no place for further enquiry. My appeal is for a less panic driven approach, it may be fundamental to the purpose we see in life but life can continue without a resolution of the problem. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 10:49 - Jun 18 with 3172 views | Leaky |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 18:02 - Jun 17 by Radlett_blue |
Tony Blair didn't actually do too badly (ducks).
The Commons still keep up the pretence of daily prayers, presumably to keep happy the 5% or so of the population who regularly attend a Christian church. |
Only took us to war, then managed to get himself the title of Middle East Peace Envoy very a very Christian & profitable act |  | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 11:01 - Jun 18 with 3158 views | BrixtonBlue |
Soz, accidental downarrow.
If they were competent I wouldn't care if they believed in the tooth fairy. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 11:12 - Jun 18 with 3143 views | eireblue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 09:14 - Jun 18 by Durovigutum |
Yes. But how do we move forward?
There is a "Universal truth" of humanity shared by 90% plus of scripture and non-religious philosophical writing. There are elements of humanism that are interesting but don't align. There are aspects of "right to live" or "right to die" that are difficult regardless of religious or political views, including burden on society questions. There are concepts around environment or animal welfare and sentience and meat eating. There have been negative impacts to the increasing secularisation of society including a reduction in the community spirit and the increase in mental health issues, there have been certain positives in terms of allowing greater freedom to certain communities of people dogmatic religion was hostile to.
How do we bundle these things up in a modern society? Is this a similar question to how are we governed in the 21st century? |
As researched by anthropologists, humans, by and large have a very similar moral code.
No need for it to be dictated from above.
Just need humans to agree how to work together. This is largely what democracy is for.
Luckily we also have an example process by which things iteratively can improve over time. |  | | |
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