| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? 14:08 - Jun 17 with 24159 views | SpruceMoose |
It's a yes from me. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:03 - Jun 17 with 2330 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 15:53 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
Strictly speaking atheists don't have beliefs.
As for the point, It entirely depends on the individual.
If it was a personal thing which in no way made it's way into state business then happy days, do what you like.
If it in any way encroaches onto secular state affairs then said individual should be nowhere near the top job in my opinion.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 15:54]
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Of course atheism is a belief. A belief there is no God. Atheists hate this simple fact because it does of course reduce their POV to just another personally held belief, and they employ all sorts of syllogisms and jumping through semantic hoops to dissuade others and them selves of this, for e.g. "well you dont make a conscious effort to not believe in dragons do you".
I can't understand why it would bother anyone to have a PM who openly believes in God, to answer OP. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:08 - Jun 17 with 2324 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:03 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
Of course atheism is a belief. A belief there is no God. Atheists hate this simple fact because it does of course reduce their POV to just another personally held belief, and they employ all sorts of syllogisms and jumping through semantic hoops to dissuade others and them selves of this, for e.g. "well you dont make a conscious effort to not believe in dragons do you".
I can't understand why it would bother anyone to have a PM who openly believes in God, to answer OP. |
I'm sorry but that is nonsense.
Given their is no evidence at all for the existence of god, not considering such a being to be real isn't a belief, it's just the status quo. Considering such an entity exists is a belief.
I don't see why you need it to be a belief if your happy with your own beliefs.
SB |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:11 - Jun 17 with 2308 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:08 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
I'm sorry but that is nonsense.
Given their is no evidence at all for the existence of god, not considering such a being to be real isn't a belief, it's just the status quo. Considering such an entity exists is a belief.
I don't see why you need it to be a belief if your happy with your own beliefs.
SB |
You're acting like atheism isnt a conscious decision taken by rational people. Given that religious iconography of some type or another is present throughout pretty much all human history and that religion is soaked into certainly our culture and most cultures throughout the world, it's a conscious decision and therefore a belief to not agree with it. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:11 - Jun 17 with 2291 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:03 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
Of course atheism is a belief. A belief there is no God. Atheists hate this simple fact because it does of course reduce their POV to just another personally held belief, and they employ all sorts of syllogisms and jumping through semantic hoops to dissuade others and them selves of this, for e.g. "well you dont make a conscious effort to not believe in dragons do you".
I can't understand why it would bother anyone to have a PM who openly believes in God, to answer OP. |
I'm not sure how it is that you still don't get that an absence of belief in God is not a belief. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:12 - Jun 17 with 2286 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:11 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
You're acting like atheism isnt a conscious decision taken by rational people. Given that religious iconography of some type or another is present throughout pretty much all human history and that religion is soaked into certainly our culture and most cultures throughout the world, it's a conscious decision and therefore a belief to not agree with it. |
That makes no sense at all. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:17 - Jun 17 with 2287 views | giant_stow |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 15:56 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
That does not make not believing in God a belief though. I'm guessing you don't believe in Father Christmas and that you wouldn't think of your not believing in Father Christmas as being a belief that you hold. |
We can prove that there's no father Christmas going down chimnies, or dragons breathing fire, but we can't prove or know that there's no God. Therefore I don't have to believe there's no father Christmas, but I do have to believe there's no God. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:18 - Jun 17 with 2283 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:11 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
You're acting like atheism isnt a conscious decision taken by rational people. Given that religious iconography of some type or another is present throughout pretty much all human history and that religion is soaked into certainly our culture and most cultures throughout the world, it's a conscious decision and therefore a belief to not agree with it. |
Sigh.
It's a default position that everyone would assume if they weren't subject to actual beliefs from a young age.
It's present in much historical culture because people needed something to believe in or because they lived in a pre-science world.
I have no idea why this issue bothers you.
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:20 - Jun 17 with 2275 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:17 - Jun 17 by giant_stow |
We can prove that there's no father Christmas going down chimnies, or dragons breathing fire, but we can't prove or know that there's no God. Therefore I don't have to believe there's no father Christmas, but I do have to believe there's no God. |
That's not the way it works.
The position is to believe there is a god, not to not believe there is a god. Otherwise the same argument applies to literally anything a persons imagination can conjure.
It's really not important though, just a bit of an annoying attempt at a poor semantic argument from some corners.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:21]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:21 - Jun 17 with 2273 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:18 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
Sigh.
It's a default position that everyone would assume if they weren't subject to actual beliefs from a young age.
It's present in much historical culture because people needed something to believe in or because they lived in a pre-science world.
I have no idea why this issue bothers you.
SB |
"It's a default position that everyone would assume if they weren't subject to actual beliefs from a young age"
This is your belief, not a fact. See? All beliefs about things we cannot prove are equal. Unless you can prove there isnt a god?
I'm agnostic which is the only sensible position to take. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:22 - Jun 17 with 2253 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:17 - Jun 17 by giant_stow |
We can prove that there's no father Christmas going down chimnies, or dragons breathing fire, but we can't prove or know that there's no God. Therefore I don't have to believe there's no father Christmas, but I do have to believe there's no God. |
We can prove there's no Father Christmas going down chimnies but we can't prove there isn't a Father Christmas at all. Much in the same way we can prove that there isn't a God who created the Earth in the way described in the Bible, all of our scientific knowledge shows such an explanation of how the Earth was created to be false. Now people can hold on to there being a God without believing everything the Bible says, just as people can hold on to there being a Father Christmas, just not one as described in folklore. You can't show me that there is no Father Christmas at all, we all know that his workshop is magic and invisible to the human eye. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:22 - Jun 17 with 2266 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:21 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
"It's a default position that everyone would assume if they weren't subject to actual beliefs from a young age"
This is your belief, not a fact. See? All beliefs about things we cannot prove are equal. Unless you can prove there isnt a god?
I'm agnostic which is the only sensible position to take. |
"This is your belief, not a fact."
Disagree entirely. If someone is not subjected to something they can't possibly believe in it.
Can you explain why this matters to you?
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:23]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:24 - Jun 17 with 2258 views | baxterbasics |
Well that rules out pretty much any PM we have ever had. Though some have been more 'open' than others.
Jeremy Corbyn's (I assume) atheism certainly does not make him any more attractive a prospect.
You are also ruling out any practicing Muslim or Jew with that outlook. |  |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:25 - Jun 17 with 2245 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:21 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
"It's a default position that everyone would assume if they weren't subject to actual beliefs from a young age"
This is your belief, not a fact. See? All beliefs about things we cannot prove are equal. Unless you can prove there isnt a god?
I'm agnostic which is the only sensible position to take. |
You can't prove a negative. The inability to prove a negative does not mean that everything becomes a matter of belief. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:25 - Jun 17 with 2257 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:22 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
"This is your belief, not a fact."
Disagree entirely. If someone is not subjected to something they can't possibly believe in it.
Can you explain why this matters to you?
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:23]
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And you're perfectly entitled to disagree, because that's what you believe! But again, all beliefs in things we cannot prove or may indeed be unproveable are equal. So it only ultimately comes down to the power of ones argument over whatever the issue may be.
It matters to me because it's an interesting argument, in so far as anything "matters" on this website.
Also your tangled point about not believing in something unless one is exposed to it would surely mean if it were true that religion would not have come about in the first place? Unless religion existed before man did and was waiting for him? [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:26]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:28 - Jun 17 with 2247 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:25 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
And you're perfectly entitled to disagree, because that's what you believe! But again, all beliefs in things we cannot prove or may indeed be unproveable are equal. So it only ultimately comes down to the power of ones argument over whatever the issue may be.
It matters to me because it's an interesting argument, in so far as anything "matters" on this website.
Also your tangled point about not believing in something unless one is exposed to it would surely mean if it were true that religion would not have come about in the first place? Unless religion existed before man did and was waiting for him? [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:26]
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Nobody can believe in anything they aren't exposed to. It's impossible - how can you form an opinion on something you don't know about. Given this my original point stands and it's not a belief.
I'm not going to go round in this warped circle anymore.
Edit, since you added this:
"Also your tangled point about not believing in something unless one is exposed to it would surely mean if it were true that religion would not have come about in the first place? Unless religion existed before man did and was waiting for him?"
It's not a tangled point. It's totally salient. A newborn does not believe in god. There are multiple reasons why god could have come into existence. Someone promising a better life after death if they do things for them now, an excuse for some failure, manipulation of the populace, etc: the list could be long.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:30]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:29 - Jun 17 with 2245 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:28 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
Nobody can believe in anything they aren't exposed to. It's impossible - how can you form an opinion on something you don't know about. Given this my original point stands and it's not a belief.
I'm not going to go round in this warped circle anymore.
Edit, since you added this:
"Also your tangled point about not believing in something unless one is exposed to it would surely mean if it were true that religion would not have come about in the first place? Unless religion existed before man did and was waiting for him?"
It's not a tangled point. It's totally salient. A newborn does not believe in god. There are multiple reasons why god could have come into existence. Someone promising a better life after death if they do things for them now, an excuse for some failure, manipulation of the populace, etc: the list could be long.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:30]
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Well if that's true, how did religion start and take a foothold in the human experience in the first place? | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:29 - Jun 17 with 2244 views | giant_stow |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:20 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
That's not the way it works.
The position is to believe there is a god, not to not believe there is a god. Otherwise the same argument applies to literally anything a persons imagination can conjure.
It's really not important though, just a bit of an annoying attempt at a poor semantic argument from some corners.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:21]
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That's probably where we differ - I think that given our culture and history, its fine start from whatever position you want on God. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:31 - Jun 17 with 2236 views | StokieBlue |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:29 - Jun 17 by chicoazul |
Well if that's true, how did religion start and take a foothold in the human experience in the first place? |
I've answered your edit already.
There could be a near endless list of selfish human reasons or the desire to blame or be inclusive in a group.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:32]
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:31 - Jun 17 with 2230 views | giant_stow |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:22 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
We can prove there's no Father Christmas going down chimnies but we can't prove there isn't a Father Christmas at all. Much in the same way we can prove that there isn't a God who created the Earth in the way described in the Bible, all of our scientific knowledge shows such an explanation of how the Earth was created to be false. Now people can hold on to there being a God without believing everything the Bible says, just as people can hold on to there being a Father Christmas, just not one as described in folklore. You can't show me that there is no Father Christmas at all, we all know that his workshop is magic and invisible to the human eye. |
Father Christmas magic doesn't work against modern science - we all know that, silly. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:33 - Jun 17 with 2226 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:31 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
I've answered your edit already.
There could be a near endless list of selfish human reasons or the desire to blame or be inclusive in a group.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:32]
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There *could*, yes. Depending on what you believe, right? There is no way to *know*. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:33 - Jun 17 with 2224 views | Durovigutum |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:20 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
That's not the way it works.
The position is to believe there is a god, not to not believe there is a god. Otherwise the same argument applies to literally anything a persons imagination can conjure.
It's really not important though, just a bit of an annoying attempt at a poor semantic argument from some corners.
SB [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 16:21]
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Surely to be agnostic is the neutral position, and to have faith or to have no faith is a choice? |  | | |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:34 - Jun 17 with 2217 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:29 - Jun 17 by giant_stow |
That's probably where we differ - I think that given our culture and history, its fine start from whatever position you want on God. |
And it's also fine to start our believing in Father Christmas, as most children do. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:34 - Jun 17 with 2220 views | chicoazul |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:33 - Jun 17 by Durovigutum |
Surely to be agnostic is the neutral position, and to have faith or to have no faith is a choice? |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:35 - Jun 17 with 2214 views | Herbivore |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:31 - Jun 17 by giant_stow |
Father Christmas magic doesn't work against modern science - we all know that, silly. |
That's your belief. | |
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| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:41 - Jun 17 with 2206 views | giant_stow |
| Would it bother you to have a PM who openly believed in God? on 16:35 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
That's your belief. |
No, its a fact! A difference between chimney popping Santa and some kind of Christmasy spirity thing felt by many at once as a shared experience - an unprovable feeling. | |
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