| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness†20:08 - Jun 17 with 5157 views | Trequartista |
I love Britishness being distinct from anything else thank you very much Mr Watson. |  |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:09 - Jun 17 with 2263 views | Herbivore |
What is Britishness? |  |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:11 - Jun 17 with 2258 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:09 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
What is Britishness? |
Only Fools and Horses. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:11 - Jun 17 with 2255 views | footers |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:09 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
What is Britishness? |
Brown sauce. |  |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:12 - Jun 17 with 2249 views | Darth_Koont |
He's not wrong.
But it's Tom Watson, so I'm wondering "What's his angle?" |  |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:16 - Jun 17 with 2233 views | Ftnfwest |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:12 - Jun 17 by Darth_Koont |
He's not wrong.
But it's Tom Watson, so I'm wondering "What's his angle?" |
He’s not trying a sneaky angle of ‘Scottishness is therefore not distinct from Britishness’ is he? |  | | |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:17 - Jun 17 with 2241 views | Guthrum |
It's a fair point that, for a large part of the nation's history, England/Britain has been completely intertwined with the Continent. The idea we are something completely different was largely a Victorian invention. Even then, it was still considered we had strong interests in Europe (e.g. Belgium, Greece, the Balkans, the Bosphorus). |  |
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| Tom Watson on 20:38 - Jun 17 with 2172 views | sparks |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:17 - Jun 17 by Guthrum |
It's a fair point that, for a large part of the nation's history, England/Britain has been completely intertwined with the Continent. The idea we are something completely different was largely a Victorian invention. Even then, it was still considered we had strong interests in Europe (e.g. Belgium, Greece, the Balkans, the Bosphorus). |
Intertwined- certainly. But to say that Britishness is not distinct from Europeaness is plainly silly.
We live in a time where lots of small nations are desperately trying to assert and enjoy their own identity and independence. The solution to Brexit is not trying to convince people that they should accept being subsumed into a greater whole with which they dont fully identify.
Its a curious paradox that, for instance, Scotland is pro remain, but has a pretty strong contingent keen to assert their own identity and independence. In a time when countries keep fighting for independence, the whole EU federation ideal seems hugely problematic. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:56]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:53 - Jun 17 with 2135 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:17 - Jun 17 by Guthrum |
It's a fair point that, for a large part of the nation's history, England/Britain has been completely intertwined with the Continent. The idea we are something completely different was largely a Victorian invention. Even then, it was still considered we had strong interests in Europe (e.g. Belgium, Greece, the Balkans, the Bosphorus). |
Of course we have some common values and culture, but to say there is no distinction between the two is ridiculous. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:03 - Jun 17 with 2094 views | Guthrum |
| Tom Watson on 20:38 - Jun 17 by sparks |
Intertwined- certainly. But to say that Britishness is not distinct from Europeaness is plainly silly.
We live in a time where lots of small nations are desperately trying to assert and enjoy their own identity and independence. The solution to Brexit is not trying to convince people that they should accept being subsumed into a greater whole with which they dont fully identify.
Its a curious paradox that, for instance, Scotland is pro remain, but has a pretty strong contingent keen to assert their own identity and independence. In a time when countries keep fighting for independence, the whole EU federation ideal seems hugely problematic. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:56]
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Depended upon social class. The upper (and, to an extent, middle) levels travelled, married and lived throughout Europe. Nationality had more to do with personal allegiance than geographical point of origin. For the lower classes, regional loyalties trumped ideas of nation.
Watson is over-egging the point, but he was also talking about Shakespeare's London, a particularly cosmopolitan place. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:05 - Jun 17 with 2082 views | footers |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:53 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Of course we have some common values and culture, but to say there is no distinction between the two is ridiculous. |
There is, but not massively, noticeably so. Which is what Watson was probably getting at.
The UK is a European nation. As much as some would prefer to be Air Strip One. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:10 - Jun 17 with 2065 views | reusersfreekicks |
Meh. People are people. What are nations but lines on a map |  | | |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:13 - Jun 17 with 2054 views | Guthrum |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:53 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Of course we have some common values and culture, but to say there is no distinction between the two is ridiculous. |
Only in the relatively modern era. A Saxon monk, a medieval merchant, a 17th century soldier or a statesman from 1800 would not necessarily have agreed with you.
Remember, England owned (sometimes quite sizeable or strategic) chunks of Europe right up until 1662 (and then Gibraltar from 1713 onwards). | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:20 - Jun 17 with 2030 views | Herbivore |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:53 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Of course we have some common values and culture, but to say there is no distinction between the two is ridiculous. |
Why? | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:28 - Jun 17 with 2013 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:10 - Jun 17 by reusersfreekicks |
Meh. People are people. What are nations but lines on a map |
Yes Ipswich Town, West Ham United, Leeds United, Norwich City. All the same. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:30 - Jun 17 with 2002 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:20 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
Why? |
Because it is patently untrue. Each nation in Europe has it's own culture. We are not a United States of Europe. | |
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| Tom Watson on 21:38 - Jun 17 with 1962 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tom Watson on 20:38 - Jun 17 by sparks |
Intertwined- certainly. But to say that Britishness is not distinct from Europeaness is plainly silly.
We live in a time where lots of small nations are desperately trying to assert and enjoy their own identity and independence. The solution to Brexit is not trying to convince people that they should accept being subsumed into a greater whole with which they dont fully identify.
Its a curious paradox that, for instance, Scotland is pro remain, but has a pretty strong contingent keen to assert their own identity and independence. In a time when countries keep fighting for independence, the whole EU federation ideal seems hugely problematic. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 20:56]
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Depends where you draw your lines. At the broader scale we're not distinct from other Europeans in terms of life outlook, yet in other cases we can be different from the neighbouring village in terms of local customs and accents.
I've never paid much attention to the bloke before, and no doubt there's a history behind him that his detractors would drag up to try and discredit him. That's normal whoever it is if they've been in the public life for a time. But one thing is for sure (for me) - he's 10x the leader Corbyn will ever be.
edit - damn - i've invoked the Corbyn equivalent to Godwin's Law. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 21:39]
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:40 - Jun 17 with 1959 views | slump |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 20:53 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Of course we have some common values and culture, but to say there is no distinction between the two is ridiculous. |
I've got more in common with patxaran swilling Aitor from Urdax than white line chaser Richy from Woodbridge.
Maybe I'm not British? |  |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:43 - Jun 17 with 1949 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:30 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Because it is patently untrue. Each nation in Europe has it's own culture. We are not a United States of Europe. |
Yey on a global scale Europe shares common views and culture....
It's got nothing to do with being a United States of Europe or otherwise. The political element is irrelevant to this discussion. It's about closeness of geography, shared ancestry, shared experiences and exchanges of ideas and learning, etc. | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:48 - Jun 17 with 1928 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:43 - Jun 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Yey on a global scale Europe shares common views and culture....
It's got nothing to do with being a United States of Europe or otherwise. The political element is irrelevant to this discussion. It's about closeness of geography, shared ancestry, shared experiences and exchanges of ideas and learning, etc. |
I don't dispute any of that, I am saying we are not indistinct and vive la difference | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:52 - Jun 17 with 1906 views | Herbivore |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:30 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Because it is patently untrue. Each nation in Europe has it's own culture. We are not a United States of Europe. |
You've not even been able to define Britishness, which is the first step to determining whether it is distinct from being European. | |
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| Tom Watson on 21:57 - Jun 17 with 1890 views | Churchman |
| Tom Watson on 21:38 - Jun 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Depends where you draw your lines. At the broader scale we're not distinct from other Europeans in terms of life outlook, yet in other cases we can be different from the neighbouring village in terms of local customs and accents.
I've never paid much attention to the bloke before, and no doubt there's a history behind him that his detractors would drag up to try and discredit him. That's normal whoever it is if they've been in the public life for a time. But one thing is for sure (for me) - he's 10x the leader Corbyn will ever be.
edit - damn - i've invoked the Corbyn equivalent to Godwin's Law. [Post edited 17 Jun 2019 21:39]
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I agree with this. I would add two things. Firstly, we have an island mentality and not being invaded for a 1000 years makes a big difference. Europeans have a heritage of fluid borders, invasions, countries created (Germany 1871 etc) and this is important to how they see the world. This was the view by a couple of Germans a few years ago.
Secondly England’s structures (counties, boroughs, 100s etc) date back to the invasion by Angles, Saxons and Jutes around 6c. These were not even affected by the Norman invasion really. The Conquerer just gave ownership of most things to his mob. The European mode of organising things evolved a little differently Including Napoleons continental system. |  | | |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:58 - Jun 17 with 1892 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:52 - Jun 17 by Herbivore |
You've not even been able to define Britishness, which is the first step to determining whether it is distinct from being European. |
You think another European country could have made Only Fools and Horses, Alan Partridge, Monty Python? Fish n Chips, Pop music. There are countless examples. | |
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| Tom Watson on 21:59 - Jun 17 with 1883 views | Trequartista |
| Tom Watson on 21:57 - Jun 17 by Churchman |
I agree with this. I would add two things. Firstly, we have an island mentality and not being invaded for a 1000 years makes a big difference. Europeans have a heritage of fluid borders, invasions, countries created (Germany 1871 etc) and this is important to how they see the world. This was the view by a couple of Germans a few years ago.
Secondly England’s structures (counties, boroughs, 100s etc) date back to the invasion by Angles, Saxons and Jutes around 6c. These were not even affected by the Norman invasion really. The Conquerer just gave ownership of most things to his mob. The European mode of organising things evolved a little differently Including Napoleons continental system. |
Agree that being an island makes a difference. Is there any other mainland country that refers to the rest of Europe as "on the continent"? | |
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| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 22:02 - Jun 17 with 1867 views | Herbivore |
| Tom Watson "Britishness is not distinct from Europeanness” on 21:58 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
You think another European country could have made Only Fools and Horses, Alan Partridge, Monty Python? Fish n Chips, Pop music. There are countless examples. |
You've listed some British things. | |
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| Tom Watson on 22:05 - Jun 17 with 1846 views | Churchman |
| Tom Watson on 21:59 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
Agree that being an island makes a difference. Is there any other mainland country that refers to the rest of Europe as "on the continent"? |
I’ve heard a number of Germans I’ve met over the years refer to Britain in conversation as ‘the Island’ which I guess is kind of the reverse. | | | |
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