| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 52783 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:43 - Jul 25 with 9328 views | footers |
"Chaque epoch reve la suivante"
What exactly are we dreaming here?
I make you right, Mr m14. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:46 - Jul 25 with 9308 views | StokieBlue |
Good post. I do think it's worth considering that at that point people didn't really know the endgame. People are aware now what can happen and thus are more likely to speak up that in your example.
"It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late."
Many on this site make great efforts to say that liberals with a small L are the problem and that those types of policies are the issue. It has to be one extreme or the other for many. It's not a view I subscribe to but highlights how divided across the entire spectrum our current politics have become.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 with 9293 views | DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:52 - Jul 25 with 9276 views | footers |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:46 - Jul 25 by StokieBlue |
Good post. I do think it's worth considering that at that point people didn't really know the endgame. People are aware now what can happen and thus are more likely to speak up that in your example.
"It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late."
Many on this site make great efforts to say that liberals with a small L are the problem and that those types of policies are the issue. It has to be one extreme or the other for many. It's not a view I subscribe to but highlights how divided across the entire spectrum our current politics have become.
SB |
For the sake of clarity, which sort of liberal is meant here? Traditional Liberal or yanqui liberal? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:52 - Jul 25 with 9273 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:46 - Jul 25 by StokieBlue |
Good post. I do think it's worth considering that at that point people didn't really know the endgame. People are aware now what can happen and thus are more likely to speak up that in your example.
"It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late."
Many on this site make great efforts to say that liberals with a small L are the problem and that those types of policies are the issue. It has to be one extreme or the other for many. It's not a view I subscribe to but highlights how divided across the entire spectrum our current politics have become.
SB |
Yep, you’re absolutely right.
I think that’s mainly the view of people that don’t understand what ‘liberal’ means though. I may have been optimistic describing it as a majority. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:53 - Jul 25 with 9268 views | Beckets |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:46 - Jul 25 by StokieBlue |
Good post. I do think it's worth considering that at that point people didn't really know the endgame. People are aware now what can happen and thus are more likely to speak up that in your example.
"It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late."
Many on this site make great efforts to say that liberals with a small L are the problem and that those types of policies are the issue. It has to be one extreme or the other for many. It's not a view I subscribe to but highlights how divided across the entire spectrum our current politics have become.
SB |
Agreed. ‘Centrist’ now appears to have become a derogatory term. |  | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:58 - Jul 25 with 9250 views | ballycastle |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
Good article. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:59 - Jul 25 with 9245 views | BloomBlue |
Sorry what are you saying here? Are you saying Labour and its supporters hatred for Jewish people will result in them following the Nazis and build concentration camps?
I know JC hates them and McDonnell is keen on following Chairman Mao's principles on fascism but I really dont see either going that far. |  | | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:01 - Jul 25 with 9236 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
Agree with that, but I think whether we call it fascism or not is a side issue really.
My point was meant to be that the approach and effect is the same, not that the political ideology is necessarily the same. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:03 - Jul 25 with 9221 views | StokieBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:52 - Jul 25 by footers |
For the sake of clarity, which sort of liberal is meant here? Traditional Liberal or yanqui liberal? |
Fair question.
I assumed he meant fairly centrist UK liberal types.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:03 - Jul 25 with 9224 views | ballycastle |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:59 - Jul 25 by BloomBlue |
Sorry what are you saying here? Are you saying Labour and its supporters hatred for Jewish people will result in them following the Nazis and build concentration camps?
I know JC hates them and McDonnell is keen on following Chairman Mao's principles on fascism but I really dont see either going that far. |
Those already condemning the Boris gov as fascist would have a great deal more credence if they angled the same critique at what was the proposed and now will never happen JC administration. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:06 - Jul 25 with 9211 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:59 - Jul 25 by BloomBlue |
Sorry what are you saying here? Are you saying Labour and its supporters hatred for Jewish people will result in them following the Nazis and build concentration camps?
I know JC hates them and McDonnell is keen on following Chairman Mao's principles on fascism but I really dont see either going that far. |
No.
Although for the avoidance of doubt, I absolutely deplore the anti Semitism in the Labour Party and would never vote for Labour under Corbyn. But then again, I’ve never voted for Labour in my life so.....
However, if you’re saying that the biggest threat to our values and democracy is Jeremy Corbyn then you’re either being deliberately obtuse or have been completely and utterly brainwashed.
Our actual Prime Minister is openly racist and islamophobic for heaven’s sake. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:06 - Jul 25 with 9208 views | StokieBlue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:03 - Jul 25 by ballycastle |
Those already condemning the Boris gov as fascist would have a great deal more credence if they angled the same critique at what was the proposed and now will never happen JC administration. |
That's a false equivalence. One is literally in power and one is nowhere near power (regardless of what they believe).
I think you'll also find that many have criticised the potential Labour front bench.
It's just whatabouterry. People would be happier if you actually address the concerns with Boris and supported your "views" with evidence. Something which you and others seem entirely unable to comprehend.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:07 - Jul 25 with 9202 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:03 - Jul 25 by StokieBlue |
Fair question.
I assumed he meant fairly centrist UK liberal types.
SB |
Yep.
Again, not wanting to get bogged down in definitions. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:07 - Jul 25 with 9206 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
Good post.
The word facism (and Nazi) has effectively lost its meaning as its used far too much against populism and for example the put down across social media as someone I don’t agree with must be a fascist.
I don’t think we we are seeing a rise of true facism, what’s interesting though is that traditional notions of facism, the right and their persecution of the Jews for example now manifests itself (as far as antisemitism is concerned) on the left.
Fair to say both extremes, right and left are abhorant. |  | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:07 - Jul 25 with 9197 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:03 - Jul 25 by ballycastle |
Those already condemning the Boris gov as fascist would have a great deal more credence if they angled the same critique at what was the proposed and now will never happen JC administration. |
Oh. My. God. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:10 - Jul 25 with 9174 views | DanTheMan |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:07 - Jul 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Good post.
The word facism (and Nazi) has effectively lost its meaning as its used far too much against populism and for example the put down across social media as someone I don’t agree with must be a fascist.
I don’t think we we are seeing a rise of true facism, what’s interesting though is that traditional notions of facism, the right and their persecution of the Jews for example now manifests itself (as far as antisemitism is concerned) on the left.
Fair to say both extremes, right and left are abhorant. |
Whilst hatred of Jews was obviously a huge part of Nazism, it's worth remembering that Jews have been persecuted in Europe for literally thousands of years. It isn't something new and isn't directly related to Fascism. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:12 - Jul 25 with 9159 views | sparks |
It seems like the sort of hyperbole which will immediately resonate with supporters of Johnson and trump as reason to buy into the idea that the loony left see anyone who disagrees as a fascist and are trying to shutdown discussion.
Its silly and counterproductive. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:14 - Jul 25 with 9139 views | Guthrum |
Part of the mistake is, perhaps, assuming there's a small-L-liberal majority, merely because most of the people we know are, rather than in reality it being a small-C-conservative one, whose thoughts can thus be appealed to by populists.
Most people do not like change or upheaval very much, prefer a comfortable, easy life and have a rosy view of how things used to be 9however inaccurate). They are the ones who concur when told that this or that recent thing is ruining the country and should be dealt with.
That's not to say they aren't kind and generous on an individual level, most are. But when things move beyond personal contact, then they are inclined to turn inwards and present a cold shoulder. It has ever been thus.
Unfortunately, we are living in times where the pace of change - social, technological, geopolitical, climatic - is incredibly fast, combined with (and partly causing) large-scale population movements. The world has become unrecogniseable within a matter of decades, less than a lifetime.
What we are seeing politically is a reaction to that by those who have seen their lives turned upside-down, their communities changed, their jobs vanish, their prosperity evaporate. They crave familiarity when it has disappeared forever. That's why the Tories have plumped for an ersatz-Churchill, the hero-figure of their youth, without examining the likeness too closely.
I can't offer solutions to this, other than that it will pass in time and people will wonder how we got ourselves into that state. We can, however, by fighting it at least mitigate any ill effects and perhaps slow the onset or speed its depature. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Jul 25 with 9124 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:07 - Jul 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Good post.
The word facism (and Nazi) has effectively lost its meaning as its used far too much against populism and for example the put down across social media as someone I don’t agree with must be a fascist.
I don’t think we we are seeing a rise of true facism, what’s interesting though is that traditional notions of facism, the right and their persecution of the Jews for example now manifests itself (as far as antisemitism is concerned) on the left.
Fair to say both extremes, right and left are abhorant. |
Stalin and the Russia he inherited was incredibly anti-Semitic as was England in the Middle Ages etc. It's far from a political standpoint, despite what our right wing press would have us believe (ironically). |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Jul 25 with 9121 views | m14_blue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:12 - Jul 25 by sparks |
It seems like the sort of hyperbole which will immediately resonate with supporters of Johnson and trump as reason to buy into the idea that the loony left see anyone who disagrees as a fascist and are trying to shutdown discussion.
Its silly and counterproductive. |
Fair enough, well I certainly hope you’re right. Agree that my use of ‘fascism’ probably wasn’t helpful. I hope that people like you and I, who i think have broadly similar views, aren’t looking back in ten years wondering if we could have changed the direction of travel had we reacted sooner.
The very idea that I could now be considered part of ‘the loony left’ kind of makes my point. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 9:25]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:22 - Jul 25 with 9092 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:16 - Jul 25 by Mullet |
Stalin and the Russia he inherited was incredibly anti-Semitic as was England in the Middle Ages etc. It's far from a political standpoint, despite what our right wing press would have us believe (ironically). |
Yep I get that but the context of the original post was not historical it was about what’s happening today, antisemitism can undoubtedly be found across the political divide but fair to say it’s an issue (albeit linked to Palestine) that vexes the left more than the right (currently). | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:22 - Jul 25 with 9086 views | itfcjoe |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:14 - Jul 25 by Guthrum |
Part of the mistake is, perhaps, assuming there's a small-L-liberal majority, merely because most of the people we know are, rather than in reality it being a small-C-conservative one, whose thoughts can thus be appealed to by populists.
Most people do not like change or upheaval very much, prefer a comfortable, easy life and have a rosy view of how things used to be 9however inaccurate). They are the ones who concur when told that this or that recent thing is ruining the country and should be dealt with.
That's not to say they aren't kind and generous on an individual level, most are. But when things move beyond personal contact, then they are inclined to turn inwards and present a cold shoulder. It has ever been thus.
Unfortunately, we are living in times where the pace of change - social, technological, geopolitical, climatic - is incredibly fast, combined with (and partly causing) large-scale population movements. The world has become unrecogniseable within a matter of decades, less than a lifetime.
What we are seeing politically is a reaction to that by those who have seen their lives turned upside-down, their communities changed, their jobs vanish, their prosperity evaporate. They crave familiarity when it has disappeared forever. That's why the Tories have plumped for an ersatz-Churchill, the hero-figure of their youth, without examining the likeness too closely.
I can't offer solutions to this, other than that it will pass in time and people will wonder how we got ourselves into that state. We can, however, by fighting it at least mitigate any ill effects and perhaps slow the onset or speed its depature. |
I'd say I'm a small l Liberal, and my Dad is a small c Conservative - but those views seem to get further and further away from each other when you try and explore them in any detail.
Made the mistake about speaking to him about the death penalty yesterday - he thinks it should be brought back for certain people if it is 100% them, like if there is a video of them doing something, but wouldn't listen/understand point that anyone who is found guilty is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt and that opening it up for one opens it for thje other.
Like a lot of what he says, I understand the points he makes from an emotional level but they often don't stand up to any scrutiny as truth is he doesn't think about them properly, and never changes his opinion.
He hates Boris as thinks he is a liar as is very anti-Brexit, but now just wants to get it done as think in an underlying way he believes in it all, but just doesn't want to change the status quo as is doing well, but finds the lies on the bus as unforgivale amongst other things.
He would never vote for a Corbyn led Labour party, and wouldn't be put off by the things that Johnson has said which some would deem racist and fascist, and those words like Nazi have lost all their impact as are bandied around too much |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:37 - Jul 25 with 9036 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:22 - Jul 25 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Yep I get that but the context of the original post was not historical it was about what’s happening today, antisemitism can undoubtedly be found across the political divide but fair to say it’s an issue (albeit linked to Palestine) that vexes the left more than the right (currently). |
I think that's because it's the same complaint. Any sympathy for Palestine or criticism of Israel politically is met with a wailing wall (I will not apologise for that RE related pun)of "antisemitism!" from the same dogwhistlers and sh1tstirrers.
JC and his cronies do nothing to help themselves, but they are not given a platform to spread this antisemitism in the way say the Islamophobia of the right is, it comes from sometimes quite questionable exposés and insinuation in the mainstream press compared to the more obvious social media material.
It's a very depressing problem as it makes a sideshow out of something that is not really our biggest problem in this country. It has also rewritten the history of antisemitism for many ignorant of it in the first place. Which I guess is why so many of us find all of it frustrating.
The hardening more "right wing" position amongst a growing number of wealthy middle class and above Jewish people in America seems to be fuelling a lot of it over there too, and has been on the rise far longer than Trump has been around.
It's funny given Trump's tacit love-in with the KKK I guess that he is literally playing both sides and getting away with it. That's a rough model that have emboldened all the scum in this country with the privilege and designs on power to make these shifts.
I don't think Boris is a fascist in the Moseley mould and Trump his Hitler, but he's certainly a massive backwards step when this country is already flailing about on the world stage. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 09:39 - Jul 25 with 9020 views | GeoffSentence |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 08:50 - Jul 25 by DanTheMan |
I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism, whether that be the Nazi style or the Italian style. There are absolute similarities but some key defining features of Fascism that are not seen in the populists.
I'm not going to be able to explain it very well but here's an article from a few years ago that goes into it with a bit more detail. It's mainly about Trump but the parallels are there.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9886152/donald-trump-fascism |
"I don't, personally, believe we are sleepwalking into Fascism.
I don't really think the populism of today is actual Fascism"
Well, there's a conundrum here, does that fact that you don't believe we are sleepwalking into fascism mean that in actual fact, you are sleepwalking into fascism?
I suppose only time will tell. |  |
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