| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood 14:32 - Sep 5 with 7797 views | GlasgowBlue |
When Stephen Kinnock's amendment went through by mistake last night to bring back May's deal, Kier Starmer wanted to vote against it. Tobias Elwood asked him "why don't you want that" Starmer replied "because we are all united on voting against no deal but we don't know what to do next"
Elwood then said that this summed up parliament. Three years on and no one can agree what Brexit should look like.
We could have a second referendum and if the result was leave again the SNP, Liberals, Greens and assorted Labour MP's would still vote against any type of Brexit. Swinson and Blackwood have publicly stated this. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:37 - Sep 5 with 3373 views | Steve_M |
The most likely way to resolve is to point things back to the EEA or EFTA model, something May should have done with a divided country in 2016.
The original failing of the referendum - to allow leave to mean whatever anyone wanted it to mean - is probably the only reason leave won, it united fiercely anti-immigration voters with the deregulatory zealots of the Tory right and also those opposed to the political integration of Europe but with no desire to risk the enormous economic damage of a complete rupture, but also the reason why we are stuck with this mess three years on. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:38 - Sep 5 with 3369 views | itfcjoe |
It shouldn't matter, there was a big enough majority to get it through anyway.
Why should parties like the LDs, SNP and Greens be expected to vote for something they are totally against? |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:40 - Sep 5 with 3344 views | Darth_Koont |
Because we've had a government that has spent the last three years preaching a hard-line exit and then fumbling through the negotiations so that even their own party voted against the WA.
It's a real-world situation May and her useless Brexit Secretaries tried to resolve by political rhetoric and manoeuvering. They and the media cheerleaders that backed them are simply not fit for purpose in 2019 and for something as important and far-reaching as the UK's future and international relationships.
If there had been ANY respect for the narrow 52-48 result and actually reaching consensus for the good of the country, we wouldn't have arrived at the current state of clownf@ckery. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:41 - Sep 5 with 3343 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:37 - Sep 5 by Steve_M |
The most likely way to resolve is to point things back to the EEA or EFTA model, something May should have done with a divided country in 2016.
The original failing of the referendum - to allow leave to mean whatever anyone wanted it to mean - is probably the only reason leave won, it united fiercely anti-immigration voters with the deregulatory zealots of the Tory right and also those opposed to the political integration of Europe but with no desire to risk the enormous economic damage of a complete rupture, but also the reason why we are stuck with this mess three years on. |
I'm amazed that we haven't gone down the Norway+ route. Boris has little in common with the ERG. I think hw used the referendum to get a better deal with the EU, never expecting to win.
If he's prepared to lose 23 good one nation people who he at least has something in common with then why the hell hasn't he been prepared to lose the ERG?
It feels like he isn't really in charge. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:41 - Sep 5 with 3351 views | Guthrum |
If only someone could present all the undeniable positive benefits which will come from Brexit, they might stand a chance of carrying the majority of the country (or Parliament) with them.
Instead, all we get is "it won't be as bad as most experts think". Not very persuasive. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:43 - Sep 5 with 3331 views | Guthrum |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:41 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm amazed that we haven't gone down the Norway+ route. Boris has little in common with the ERG. I think hw used the referendum to get a better deal with the EU, never expecting to win.
If he's prepared to lose 23 good one nation people who he at least has something in common with then why the hell hasn't he been prepared to lose the ERG?
It feels like he isn't really in charge. |
I think you're right. He has merely ridden the horse he thought most likely to win himself the race to No. 10, now it's run away with him. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:45 - Sep 5 with 3317 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:38 - Sep 5 by itfcjoe |
It shouldn't matter, there was a big enough majority to get it through anyway.
Why should parties like the LDs, SNP and Greens be expected to vote for something they are totally against? |
So there is little point in having a people's vote if Parliament once again ignores the result if they don't like it? | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:48 - Sep 5 with 3286 views | GeoffSentence |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:45 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
So there is little point in having a people's vote if Parliament once again ignores the result if they don't like it? |
Democracy does not stop.
The Lib Dems and Greens have every right to stick to their principles and campaign for people to come round to their view. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:53 - Sep 5 with 3257 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:48 - Sep 5 by GeoffSentence |
Democracy does not stop.
The Lib Dems and Greens have every right to stick to their principles and campaign for people to come round to their view. |
Then why are the Lib Dem’s wanting another referendum? | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:53 - Sep 5 with 3261 views | Steve_M |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:41 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm amazed that we haven't gone down the Norway+ route. Boris has little in common with the ERG. I think hw used the referendum to get a better deal with the EU, never expecting to win.
If he's prepared to lose 23 good one nation people who he at least has something in common with then why the hell hasn't he been prepared to lose the ERG?
It feels like he isn't really in charge. |
It looks more like he just wanted to be PM and saw this as his best route to it and now he's trapped by his own careless rhetoric in the leadership campaign.
It should have been obvious over the last three years that nothing is going to placate the ultras as all choices involve reality intervening, no deal is just the last attempt to pretend reality doesn't exist. When it goes wrong it will be everyone else's fault. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:56 - Sep 5 with 3235 views | BlueBadger |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:41 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm amazed that we haven't gone down the Norway+ route. Boris has little in common with the ERG. I think hw used the referendum to get a better deal with the EU, never expecting to win.
If he's prepared to lose 23 good one nation people who he at least has something in common with then why the hell hasn't he been prepared to lose the ERG?
It feels like he isn't really in charge. |
Boris has plenty in common with the ERG - they're all self-serving rich thickos with no interest in anything other than their own aggrandisement and enrichement. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:59 - Sep 5 with 3226 views | Guthrum |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:45 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
So there is little point in having a people's vote if Parliament once again ignores the result if they don't like it? |
Thing that gets me is that Johnson appears trying to alienate as much of the House as possible, rather than trying to build support for what he wants to do.
If something the public voted for is only dangerous and damaging, with no clear benefits, is it responsible for a government to push that through at all costs? Especially in its worst possible form. Surely it behoves the government to do everything within its power to mitigate threats to the nation's prosperity?
It's not like the EU is an existential danger such as Nazi Germany, which might excuse a tightening of belts. [Post edited 5 Sep 2019 15:00]
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:04 - Sep 5 with 3195 views | J2BLUE |
Boris has has had an absolute shocker. He seems genuinely stunned that his ridiculous plan isn't working. Politics is fascinating but at times it is just plain stupid. Javid was parroting the line that Corbyn has been demanding an election and now he's running away from one because he's refusing to willingly walk into the trap. I have to agree with Soubry and say Corbyn looks like he is putting the national interest ahead of his own. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:06 - Sep 5 with 3167 views | itfcjoe |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:45 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
So there is little point in having a people's vote if Parliament once again ignores the result if they don't like it? |
If there is a specific question asked as part of a People's Vote then it is very different, like it was when Article 50 was triggered - but realistically there will be a GE in addition to a Referedum at any point and the GE will have clear Brexit policies set out in it and the parliament will likely reflect the result anyway | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:09 - Sep 5 with 3144 views | m14_blue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:04 - Sep 5 by J2BLUE |
Boris has has had an absolute shocker. He seems genuinely stunned that his ridiculous plan isn't working. Politics is fascinating but at times it is just plain stupid. Javid was parroting the line that Corbyn has been demanding an election and now he's running away from one because he's refusing to willingly walk into the trap. I have to agree with Soubry and say Corbyn looks like he is putting the national interest ahead of his own. |
Yep, I was critical of Corbyn and Labour for putting party before country when they voted against May's deal, now they finally seem to be putting country before party.
Good on them. |  | | |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:12 - Sep 5 with 3123 views | GeoffSentence |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 14:53 - Sep 5 by Steve_M |
It looks more like he just wanted to be PM and saw this as his best route to it and now he's trapped by his own careless rhetoric in the leadership campaign.
It should have been obvious over the last three years that nothing is going to placate the ultras as all choices involve reality intervening, no deal is just the last attempt to pretend reality doesn't exist. When it goes wrong it will be everyone else's fault. |
His reputation for dishonesty, which even by the standards of politics is a big one, is also hitting home now.
No-one trusts a word he says. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:16 - Sep 5 with 3098 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:09 - Sep 5 by m14_blue |
Yep, I was critical of Corbyn and Labour for putting party before country when they voted against May's deal, now they finally seem to be putting country before party.
Good on them. |
Although if he was to completely put country before his own ambition we could have a confidence vote today and a government of National unity headed by Ken Clarke by tomorrow. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:20 - Sep 5 with 3077 views | GeoffSentence |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:16 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Although if he was to completely put country before his own ambition we could have a confidence vote today and a government of National unity headed by Ken Clarke by tomorrow. |
Does it work like that? I'm not at all familiar with parliamentary procedure but I thought that under FTPA the government then had 14 days to pass a motion of confidence. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:21 - Sep 5 with 3067 views | eireblue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:04 - Sep 5 by J2BLUE |
Boris has has had an absolute shocker. He seems genuinely stunned that his ridiculous plan isn't working. Politics is fascinating but at times it is just plain stupid. Javid was parroting the line that Corbyn has been demanding an election and now he's running away from one because he's refusing to willingly walk into the trap. I have to agree with Soubry and say Corbyn looks like he is putting the national interest ahead of his own. |
“Take back control”
It invokes an emotional reaction.
That seems to be the Cummings and Boris approach.
I would imagine that the limited sound bites that Boris and Co keep repeating will have an emotional appeal to enough of the electorate. |  | | |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:32 - Sep 5 with 2994 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:20 - Sep 5 by GeoffSentence |
Does it work like that? I'm not at all familiar with parliamentary procedure but I thought that under FTPA the government then had 14 days to pass a motion of confidence. |
Yeah he has 14 days but that is borrowed time. Corbyn doesn’t have the confidence of his own MPs let alone the hoc. Clarke or Harman would command the confidence and Clarke has been a vocal rebel and voice of reason so would be the ideal choice to hold the fort until the two men parties sort their sh1t out and go to the country. [Post edited 5 Sep 2019 15:49]
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:46 - Sep 5 with 2925 views | Guthrum |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:32 - Sep 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah he has 14 days but that is borrowed time. Corbyn doesn’t have the confidence of his own MPs let alone the hoc. Clarke or Harman would command the confidence and Clarke has been a vocal rebel and voice of reason so would be the ideal choice to hold the fort until the two men parties sort their sh1t out and go to the country. [Post edited 5 Sep 2019 15:49]
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Unfortunately, like Johnson, Corbyn thinks he can win a General Election (or, at the very least, build a governing coalition afterwards). He's not prepared to give up his chance of getting the keys to No. 10 just yet.
Even despite any National Government beind supposedly temporary, I presume Corbyn fears the Conservatives might replace Johnson with someone better before a GE at its end - or that his own party might replace him. | |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:53 - Sep 5 with 2897 views | WD19 |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:09 - Sep 5 by m14_blue |
Yep, I was critical of Corbyn and Labour for putting party before country when they voted against May's deal, now they finally seem to be putting country before party.
Good on them. |
I'll have one of whatever you are drinking!
As others have said, if anyone was truly putting country ahead of party there are many other routes open that none are taking. |  | | |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:58 - Sep 5 with 2873 views | m14_blue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:53 - Sep 5 by WD19 |
I'll have one of whatever you are drinking!
As others have said, if anyone was truly putting country ahead of party there are many other routes open that none are taking. |
Ok, fair point. If he was really putting country first he would step aside and let someone vaguely competent lead Labour to a landslide election victory.
Baby steps though, at least he didn't jump straight for an election even if it meant no deal. | | | |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 16:05 - Sep 5 with 2846 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:04 - Sep 5 by J2BLUE |
Boris has has had an absolute shocker. He seems genuinely stunned that his ridiculous plan isn't working. Politics is fascinating but at times it is just plain stupid. Javid was parroting the line that Corbyn has been demanding an election and now he's running away from one because he's refusing to willingly walk into the trap. I have to agree with Soubry and say Corbyn looks like he is putting the national interest ahead of his own. |
I have to say, I really dont like Corbyn...
...but I am with him on this one. |  |
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| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 16:27 - Sep 5 with 2782 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Interesting revelation from Tobias Elwood on 15:46 - Sep 5 by Guthrum |
Unfortunately, like Johnson, Corbyn thinks he can win a General Election (or, at the very least, build a governing coalition afterwards). He's not prepared to give up his chance of getting the keys to No. 10 just yet.
Even despite any National Government beind supposedly temporary, I presume Corbyn fears the Conservatives might replace Johnson with someone better before a GE at its end - or that his own party might replace him. |
Word is Corbyn and Milne wanted to vote for an election but McDonnell and Starmer put a stop to it. | |
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