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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit 09:38 - Oct 4 with 1724 viewsmonytowbray

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/03/no-deal-brexit-may-make-touring

This would make touring the EU and building a fan base not worth the money (or worse affordable) for underground bands. Would certainly hit the pockets of a few friends of mine who are either touring musicians, van drivers, stage hands and whatever else.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 09:52 - Oct 4 with 1706 viewsSwansea_Blue

This is an example of what losing free movement looks like. It simply takes away opportunities.

There's a whole lot of stuff like this going on that rarely makes the news. We're losing top class EU researchers who are moving to the EU and taking their grants with them because of the prestige attached to some EU research grants. So that's a drain on top talent teaching our young adults and boosting our research standing - and for what exactly?

The whole issue has been dumbed down to a huge degree and a battle is being raged on social media over a few high profile points (that most people know nothing about). Yet loads more is affecting people's lives but we rarely hear about it and don't know the half of it. All the talk on trade and tariffs, for example. But we rarely hear anything about services, which are by far the bigger part of our economy.

There are literally thousands of potential impacts associated with leaving the EU, especially if we just flounce of in an unplanned way. And people still can't explain why leaving is a good idea, other than through vague notions of national superiority.

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(No subject) (n/t) on 10:06 - Oct 4 with 1687 viewsmonytowbray

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 09:52 - Oct 4 by Swansea_Blue

This is an example of what losing free movement looks like. It simply takes away opportunities.

There's a whole lot of stuff like this going on that rarely makes the news. We're losing top class EU researchers who are moving to the EU and taking their grants with them because of the prestige attached to some EU research grants. So that's a drain on top talent teaching our young adults and boosting our research standing - and for what exactly?

The whole issue has been dumbed down to a huge degree and a battle is being raged on social media over a few high profile points (that most people know nothing about). Yet loads more is affecting people's lives but we rarely hear about it and don't know the half of it. All the talk on trade and tariffs, for example. But we rarely hear anything about services, which are by far the bigger part of our economy.

There are literally thousands of potential impacts associated with leaving the EU, especially if we just flounce of in an unplanned way. And people still can't explain why leaving is a good idea, other than through vague notions of national superiority.


My mate recently closed his shop of 20 years. Although the writing was on the wall with online taking over Brexit and the dip in the pound really didn't help things with import costs seeing as margins were fine already.

The damage is already hitting smaller retailers and bigger businesses are making a plan to p1ss off, yet we're continually told it's "PROJECT FEAR". What will happen I think is a lot of the really large companies will say "Yeah, we'll stay and keep jobs here for massive tax breaks and the ability to exploit employees", the Brexiters will play it off as a win and say "told you so" when in reality we're worse off.

3 years we've spent honouring the vote and it's not viable. At what point do you say "we tried but it's not gonna work, sorry"?
[Post edited 4 Oct 2019 10:06]

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(No subject) (n/t) on 10:25 - Oct 4 with 1658 viewsGuthrum

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:06 - Oct 4 by monytowbray

My mate recently closed his shop of 20 years. Although the writing was on the wall with online taking over Brexit and the dip in the pound really didn't help things with import costs seeing as margins were fine already.

The damage is already hitting smaller retailers and bigger businesses are making a plan to p1ss off, yet we're continually told it's "PROJECT FEAR". What will happen I think is a lot of the really large companies will say "Yeah, we'll stay and keep jobs here for massive tax breaks and the ability to exploit employees", the Brexiters will play it off as a win and say "told you so" when in reality we're worse off.

3 years we've spent honouring the vote and it's not viable. At what point do you say "we tried but it's not gonna work, sorry"?
[Post edited 4 Oct 2019 10:06]


Thing is, we haven't actually tried all that hard to get a viable, working deal.

There's been one thing produced (May's Deal) which became extremely convoluted and cumbersome due to the matrix of partisan red lines within which it was devised, thus failed to satisfy enough people to pass. Now we have a half-arsed attempt to rewrite some bits of it based on undeveloped technology and a far too simplistic understanding of the issues.

There has been little effort to look at a range of options. Virtually none to get any kind of universal consensus. Unreasonable constraints have been nailed into place.

No wonder we're stuck with something which doesn't work or really satisfy anybody.

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(No subject) (n/t) on 10:47 - Oct 4 with 1624 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:25 - Oct 4 by Guthrum

Thing is, we haven't actually tried all that hard to get a viable, working deal.

There's been one thing produced (May's Deal) which became extremely convoluted and cumbersome due to the matrix of partisan red lines within which it was devised, thus failed to satisfy enough people to pass. Now we have a half-arsed attempt to rewrite some bits of it based on undeveloped technology and a far too simplistic understanding of the issues.

There has been little effort to look at a range of options. Virtually none to get any kind of universal consensus. Unreasonable constraints have been nailed into place.

No wonder we're stuck with something which doesn't work or really satisfy anybody.


Well if people vote for something when they have no idea what team is going to deliver it and how it will be executed, its not surprise it turns out to be a mess!!

All very predictable, and piss poor project management at its most basic level.

In no other sphere would such a big decision be signed off with so little information.

Laughable.

People who voted for Brexit did so with very little information, and are as much to blame as the government.

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(No subject) (n/t) on 10:54 - Oct 4 with 1621 viewsmonytowbray

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:47 - Oct 4 by Marshalls_Mullet

Well if people vote for something when they have no idea what team is going to deliver it and how it will be executed, its not surprise it turns out to be a mess!!

All very predictable, and piss poor project management at its most basic level.

In no other sphere would such a big decision be signed off with so little information.

Laughable.

People who voted for Brexit did so with very little information, and are as much to blame as the government.


If Brexit were a business it would be under by now.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 11:15 - Oct 4 with 1608 viewsitfcjoe

That speech from Priti Patel the other day was disgusting, the way she smirks through it talking about ending Freedom of Movement, and the racists and the xenophobes lap it up not realising it is their rights that are being taken away

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(No subject) (n/t) on 11:29 - Oct 4 with 1590 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:54 - Oct 4 by monytowbray

If Brexit were a business it would be under by now.


It would be Thomas Cook!!

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(No subject) (n/t) on 11:56 - Oct 4 with 1580 viewsChurchman

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:25 - Oct 4 by Guthrum

Thing is, we haven't actually tried all that hard to get a viable, working deal.

There's been one thing produced (May's Deal) which became extremely convoluted and cumbersome due to the matrix of partisan red lines within which it was devised, thus failed to satisfy enough people to pass. Now we have a half-arsed attempt to rewrite some bits of it based on undeveloped technology and a far too simplistic understanding of the issues.

There has been little effort to look at a range of options. Virtually none to get any kind of universal consensus. Unreasonable constraints have been nailed into place.

No wonder we're stuck with something which doesn't work or really satisfy anybody.


As far as NI is concerned, my understanding is that all possible options have been looked at over the past few of years. There is no sensible solution to the Eire / NI border - other than remaining in the EU or committing to the customs union which means there is zero point in leaving the EU.

My views have been expressed in other threads but in terms of negotiation basically, May had no idea what she was doing with this and was doomed to get stiffed from the start. She should have done her homework to establish what the EU was, how it worked, impacted on the UK and what the scenarios might be for leaving before Article 50. Hoping for the best was idiotic and allowed the EU to set the agenda.
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(No subject) (n/t) on 11:59 - Oct 4 with 1569 viewsMarshalls_Mullet

(No subject) (n/t) on 11:56 - Oct 4 by Churchman

As far as NI is concerned, my understanding is that all possible options have been looked at over the past few of years. There is no sensible solution to the Eire / NI border - other than remaining in the EU or committing to the customs union which means there is zero point in leaving the EU.

My views have been expressed in other threads but in terms of negotiation basically, May had no idea what she was doing with this and was doomed to get stiffed from the start. She should have done her homework to establish what the EU was, how it worked, impacted on the UK and what the scenarios might be for leaving before Article 50. Hoping for the best was idiotic and allowed the EU to set the agenda.


Its difficult to deal with NI and ROI, they have a history of dragging squabbles out for centuries, this is no different.

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(No subject) (n/t) on 12:01 - Oct 4 with 1569 viewsMattinLondon

(No subject) (n/t) on 10:47 - Oct 4 by Marshalls_Mullet

Well if people vote for something when they have no idea what team is going to deliver it and how it will be executed, its not surprise it turns out to be a mess!!

All very predictable, and piss poor project management at its most basic level.

In no other sphere would such a big decision be signed off with so little information.

Laughable.

People who voted for Brexit did so with very little information, and are as much to blame as the government.


No, no, no. It’ll never be the Brexiteers fault - how can 17 million people be wrong? They will never take responsibility for it and it’ll always be someone elses fault.
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(No subject) (n/t) on 12:24 - Oct 4 with 1548 viewsBlueBadger

(No subject) (n/t) on 12:01 - Oct 4 by MattinLondon

No, no, no. It’ll never be the Brexiteers fault - how can 17 million people be wrong? They will never take responsibility for it and it’ll always be someone elses fault.


Which is why they voted 'leave' in the first place - it wasn't THEIR fault that we'd had years of crippling austerity, ongoing privatisation of vital services and ongoing narrowing of focus of education services towards numbers rather than knowledge and skills, it was the fault of the bloke running the Polish deli down the road.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 12:45 - Oct 4 with 1512 viewsDubtractor

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 11:15 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

That speech from Priti Patel the other day was disgusting, the way she smirks through it talking about ending Freedom of Movement, and the racists and the xenophobes lap it up not realising it is their rights that are being taken away


Yep. I was actually seething as I watched that.

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(No subject) (n/t) on 13:11 - Oct 4 with 1487 viewsGuthrum

(No subject) (n/t) on 11:56 - Oct 4 by Churchman

As far as NI is concerned, my understanding is that all possible options have been looked at over the past few of years. There is no sensible solution to the Eire / NI border - other than remaining in the EU or committing to the customs union which means there is zero point in leaving the EU.

My views have been expressed in other threads but in terms of negotiation basically, May had no idea what she was doing with this and was doomed to get stiffed from the start. She should have done her homework to establish what the EU was, how it worked, impacted on the UK and what the scenarios might be for leaving before Article 50. Hoping for the best was idiotic and allowed the EU to set the agenda.


As you say, these things should have been properly considered. But they haven't been - until it's too late.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 13:25 - Oct 4 with 1475 viewsSteve_M

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 11:15 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

That speech from Priti Patel the other day was disgusting, the way she smirks through it talking about ending Freedom of Movement, and the racists and the xenophobes lap it up not realising it is their rights that are being taken away


If they get away with this, then the Human Rights Act will be the next thing on the agenda - indeed it has been for people like Patel and Raab for a long time. Smirking speeches to rapturous applause at the Tory conference as more rights are removed from the population.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 13:35 - Oct 4 with 1465 viewsBigManBlue

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 11:15 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

That speech from Priti Patel the other day was disgusting, the way she smirks through it talking about ending Freedom of Movement, and the racists and the xenophobes lap it up not realising it is their rights that are being taken away


Glad you feel that way too, I thought it was really abhorrent. Especially combined with the "We're coming for you..." rhetoric, which wouldn't sound out of place in somewhere like Orban's party. Seeing people in power talk that way makes the country seem an incredibly unfriendly place, especially having a significant other from the EU.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2019 14:21]

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:07 - Oct 4 with 1440 viewsitfcjoe

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 13:35 - Oct 4 by BigManBlue

Glad you feel that way too, I thought it was really abhorrent. Especially combined with the "We're coming for you..." rhetoric, which wouldn't sound out of place in somewhere like Orban's party. Seeing people in power talk that way makes the country seem an incredibly unfriendly place, especially having a significant other from the EU.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2019 14:21]


I'm not an immigrant, and can't think like one - but how can she look her parents in the eye? She is literally pulling the ladder up behind her.

Didn't they run a newsagents? Same with Sajid Javid and his Dad who was a bus driver - they are examples of the tolerance of the country, and of what can be achieved but don't seem to see it.

A bus driver and a newsagent proprietor wouldn't hit the immigration points targets, they wouldn't be seen as the 'best and the brightest'. I just cannot square their circle of how they end up with this view.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:17 - Oct 4 with 1431 viewsDubtractor

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 13:25 - Oct 4 by Steve_M

If they get away with this, then the Human Rights Act will be the next thing on the agenda - indeed it has been for people like Patel and Raab for a long time. Smirking speeches to rapturous applause at the Tory conference as more rights are removed from the population.



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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:21 - Oct 4 with 1420 viewsSpruceMoose

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:07 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

I'm not an immigrant, and can't think like one - but how can she look her parents in the eye? She is literally pulling the ladder up behind her.

Didn't they run a newsagents? Same with Sajid Javid and his Dad who was a bus driver - they are examples of the tolerance of the country, and of what can be achieved but don't seem to see it.

A bus driver and a newsagent proprietor wouldn't hit the immigration points targets, they wouldn't be seen as the 'best and the brightest'. I just cannot square their circle of how they end up with this view.


It's not that uncommon sadly. I've said this on here before but we live in a majority Hispanic neighbourhood, and you would not believe the level of support for Trump.

The feeling I get is that they are worried other immigrants make them look bad so try to distance themselves, and that certain nationalities look down on others from within their continent in the same way that many UK residents look down on the likes of poles and Romanians.

What they don't seem to realise though is that none of that matters to the racist Trump loving bloke firing his machine gun at a brown person in the supermarket.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:30 - Oct 4 with 1399 viewsBigManBlue

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:07 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

I'm not an immigrant, and can't think like one - but how can she look her parents in the eye? She is literally pulling the ladder up behind her.

Didn't they run a newsagents? Same with Sajid Javid and his Dad who was a bus driver - they are examples of the tolerance of the country, and of what can be achieved but don't seem to see it.

A bus driver and a newsagent proprietor wouldn't hit the immigration points targets, they wouldn't be seen as the 'best and the brightest'. I just cannot square their circle of how they end up with this view.


The hypocrisy is staggering really, and you make an excellent point. I also can't get behind the idea that only people who earn a lot of money are worth letting into society, though I'm sure it'll play well with the hardcore Tory crowd.

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:31 - Oct 4 with 1400 viewsitfcjoe

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:21 - Oct 4 by SpruceMoose

It's not that uncommon sadly. I've said this on here before but we live in a majority Hispanic neighbourhood, and you would not believe the level of support for Trump.

The feeling I get is that they are worried other immigrants make them look bad so try to distance themselves, and that certain nationalities look down on others from within their continent in the same way that many UK residents look down on the likes of poles and Romanians.

What they don't seem to realise though is that none of that matters to the racist Trump loving bloke firing his machine gun at a brown person in the supermarket.


"No, not you - you are a good immigrant/gay/black - not like the other sort"

Because that will really matter when they are first up against the wall

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Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 15:05 - Oct 4 with 1374 viewsPlums

Good read in relation to art and sports clubs with No Deal Brexit on 14:07 - Oct 4 by itfcjoe

I'm not an immigrant, and can't think like one - but how can she look her parents in the eye? She is literally pulling the ladder up behind her.

Didn't they run a newsagents? Same with Sajid Javid and his Dad who was a bus driver - they are examples of the tolerance of the country, and of what can be achieved but don't seem to see it.

A bus driver and a newsagent proprietor wouldn't hit the immigration points targets, they wouldn't be seen as the 'best and the brightest'. I just cannot square their circle of how they end up with this view.


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