| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? 15:13 - Oct 7 with 16365 views | BrixtonBlue |
Presumably if you were able to measure the brainwaves of babies in the womb, you'd see that they are conscious of their surroundings, and this develops over time and through parental, peer and societal influences.
But at what point am I thinking/conscious?
And why am *I* having this consciousness? Why did *I* (whatever *I* is) come to be inside this particular human that you all know and love?
I'm a bit busy today so I'll be back later to see how you're doing. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 13:19 - Oct 12 with 2159 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 13:09 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
Although if the comparison of the time humans have been in existence compared with the age of the Earth being like a fingernail clipping off a body, and Earth being a relative newcomer to the Universe, makes the Johnny come lately (no offence meant to anyone called Johnny) nature of Abrahamic religions a bit lame in this context.
And, for that matter, the Bible is just a rewrite of Greek philosophy leaving out the bits that some Middle Eastern tribes were uncomfortable with. |
The bible is a rewrite of lots of other old stuff as well, and clearly takes its ideas from the old concepts of blood sacrifice. Staggering that people still buy into that and can't see it. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:04 - Oct 12 with 2136 views | tabletopjoe |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 12:47 - Oct 12 by sparks |
Perhaps flip that on its head. If he wanted us to "find him" why would he hide? |
You sound terrible at hide and seek |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:48 - Oct 12 with 2115 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 10:41 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
"...there would be nothing to stop things just fizzling out anyway."
This gets back to my point of how come reproduction? It's a pretty weird thing when you think about it - I mean plants dropping seeds, or drooping branches into the ground which then form new plants etc, I can understand - but 2 animals mating? How & from where did the drive for that come from? (don't worry, I don't expect you personally to be able to answer! just leaving it hanging out there). |
You can't look at the evolution of mating in that way. Mating didn't just arise - there were hundreds of intermediary steps which happened, each of them producing a method of reproduction closer and closer to the optima.
Sexual mating is thus the end of a long line of tweaks and has been maintained and used by many animals because it's the most efficient way that evolution found. Direct transfer of the genetic sequence without too much loss is efficient hence it's abundant.
SB [Post edited 12 Oct 2019 15:05]
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 16:08 - Oct 12 with 2104 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 14:48 - Oct 12 by StokieBlue |
You can't look at the evolution of mating in that way. Mating didn't just arise - there were hundreds of intermediary steps which happened, each of them producing a method of reproduction closer and closer to the optima.
Sexual mating is thus the end of a long line of tweaks and has been maintained and used by many animals because it's the most efficient way that evolution found. Direct transfer of the genetic sequence without too much loss is efficient hence it's abundant.
SB [Post edited 12 Oct 2019 15:05]
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I think your explanation rather loses sight of 'accidental' mutations that, nevertheless, provide a better fit to existing conditions or a solution to changed conditions that would otherwise result in the extinction of a species. Whether there is an optimal solution to existence may be the wrong question if the conditions of existence are forever changing. Or there may be underlying physical laws that determine an 'end game' in which no sentient being survives. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 16:51 - Oct 12 with 2093 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 16:08 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
I think your explanation rather loses sight of 'accidental' mutations that, nevertheless, provide a better fit to existing conditions or a solution to changed conditions that would otherwise result in the extinction of a species. Whether there is an optimal solution to existence may be the wrong question if the conditions of existence are forever changing. Or there may be underlying physical laws that determine an 'end game' in which no sentient being survives. |
For whatever reason, your post reminds me of this film, which I sat through at least some of in a cinema sometime in the 1970s, but can't remember anything about! Anyone else see it?
https://www.criterion.com/films/824-wr-mysteries-of-the-organism#targetText=His% |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 16:56 - Oct 12 with 2090 views | WeWereZombies |
I think I saw it, I certainly read the book - which gave me a headache and when I mentioned this to a social worker friend he said 'Well, don't read books like that then'. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:15 - Oct 12 with 2080 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 16:08 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
I think your explanation rather loses sight of 'accidental' mutations that, nevertheless, provide a better fit to existing conditions or a solution to changed conditions that would otherwise result in the extinction of a species. Whether there is an optimal solution to existence may be the wrong question if the conditions of existence are forever changing. Or there may be underlying physical laws that determine an 'end game' in which no sentient being survives. |
I don't think it does. The small tweaks along the way to the current optimal solution are caused by random mutation. I thought that was pretty much given in what I said given it's the driver for evolutionary change.
I didn't say there was an optimal solution, I said it's the current optimal solution. As with a genetic algorithm in computing, the solution can get stuck in local maxima rather than global maxima and thus the solution can be sub-optimal.
None of the above means it's strange that animals developed sexual based mating though which was the original misconception I was attempting to correct.
SB | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:18 - Oct 12 with 2083 views | Bluesky |
You are. Therefore you can't be. |  | | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:50 - Oct 12 with 2069 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:15 - Oct 12 by StokieBlue |
I don't think it does. The small tweaks along the way to the current optimal solution are caused by random mutation. I thought that was pretty much given in what I said given it's the driver for evolutionary change.
I didn't say there was an optimal solution, I said it's the current optimal solution. As with a genetic algorithm in computing, the solution can get stuck in local maxima rather than global maxima and thus the solution can be sub-optimal.
None of the above means it's strange that animals developed sexual based mating though which was the original misconception I was attempting to correct.
SB |
But we do not have a 'current optimal solution', we cannot even state where we are with enough certainty to suggest that we are imperfect - because that would require a judgement based on incomplete information.
The sad conclusion is that if you work through the Second Law of Thermodynamics you arrive at a point in the future where everything still exists but in a more atomised state (or even sub-atomic state) with everything ever further away from everything else. In a Universe getting ever colder...well that is it for the material world. So the only hope is immaterial. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:00 - Oct 12 with 2066 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:50 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
But we do not have a 'current optimal solution', we cannot even state where we are with enough certainty to suggest that we are imperfect - because that would require a judgement based on incomplete information.
The sad conclusion is that if you work through the Second Law of Thermodynamics you arrive at a point in the future where everything still exists but in a more atomised state (or even sub-atomic state) with everything ever further away from everything else. In a Universe getting ever colder...well that is it for the material world. So the only hope is immaterial. |
The use of the word "solution" suggests some sort of plan, agency or destination. Its not helpful, imo, to smuggle that idea in...
Not at all sure what your references to thermodynamics have to do with it. It only applies to a closed system. [Post edited 12 Oct 2019 18:01]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:02 - Oct 12 with 2062 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:18 - Oct 12 by Bluesky |
You are. Therefore you can't be. |
But if there is a thought then there is a thinking thing hence the cogito. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:23 - Oct 12 with 2053 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:50 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
But we do not have a 'current optimal solution', we cannot even state where we are with enough certainty to suggest that we are imperfect - because that would require a judgement based on incomplete information.
The sad conclusion is that if you work through the Second Law of Thermodynamics you arrive at a point in the future where everything still exists but in a more atomised state (or even sub-atomic state) with everything ever further away from everything else. In a Universe getting ever colder...well that is it for the material world. So the only hope is immaterial. |
I'm sorry but that's doesn't make sense. You're not using thermodynamics in the correct context and are somehow trying to meld it with philosophy.
I'm not even sure what the main point you're trying to make is.
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:24 - Oct 12 with 2052 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 17:15 - Oct 12 by StokieBlue |
I don't think it does. The small tweaks along the way to the current optimal solution are caused by random mutation. I thought that was pretty much given in what I said given it's the driver for evolutionary change.
I didn't say there was an optimal solution, I said it's the current optimal solution. As with a genetic algorithm in computing, the solution can get stuck in local maxima rather than global maxima and thus the solution can be sub-optimal.
None of the above means it's strange that animals developed sexual based mating though which was the original misconception I was attempting to correct.
SB |
Come on CIL - what is wrong with that post that it deserves your down-vote without any retort.
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:55 - Oct 12 with 2048 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:23 - Oct 12 by StokieBlue |
I'm sorry but that's doesn't make sense. You're not using thermodynamics in the correct context and are somehow trying to meld it with philosophy.
I'm not even sure what the main point you're trying to make is.
SB |
Its a fairly obvious and well worn one, I thought you would be familiar with it. If the material Universe is destined for heat death then what is the point of anything? Yes, entropy survives, but what type of existence is that?
If I were a cosmologist then I might start to explore solutions that went beyond four dimensions (but I am with Sparks, for once, in the criticism that to regard there being a solution is to put the matter (sic) under consideration into the wrong framework). However, my degree is in Philosophy so I can only use that tool box for now. I know I am unusual amongst current philosophers in not fully embracing monism and in dismissing epiphenomenalism but my curiosity gets tickled by questions like what preceded (if that is the right time frame to regard it in) the Big Bang? If thoughts are immaterial how can they move material things like electrical signals? | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:02 - Oct 12 with 2044 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:55 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
Its a fairly obvious and well worn one, I thought you would be familiar with it. If the material Universe is destined for heat death then what is the point of anything? Yes, entropy survives, but what type of existence is that?
If I were a cosmologist then I might start to explore solutions that went beyond four dimensions (but I am with Sparks, for once, in the criticism that to regard there being a solution is to put the matter (sic) under consideration into the wrong framework). However, my degree is in Philosophy so I can only use that tool box for now. I know I am unusual amongst current philosophers in not fully embracing monism and in dismissing epiphenomenalism but my curiosity gets tickled by questions like what preceded (if that is the right time frame to regard it in) the Big Bang? If thoughts are immaterial how can they move material things like electrical signals? |
The flaw with the first para is the assumption it smuggles in- that there is or should be a "point".
We have no idea or reason to believe that there is. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:33 - Oct 12 with 2032 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:02 - Oct 12 by sparks |
The flaw with the first para is the assumption it smuggles in- that there is or should be a "point".
We have no idea or reason to believe that there is. |
This is interesting, what I am saying is that in material terms there is no point, but if you want to play Customs Officer and look for some smuggling then go ahead...
A point, or a purpose, or a solution - however you term it in a teleological manner - only seems to arise (or emerge if we want to use the term in vogue) as a result of thought processes. Now these may be evidenced by electrical impulses in the brain but the content (or symbolical value of cell states, networked meaning or whatever) appears to be immaterial. Annoyingly this is what gives matter some value. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:46 - Oct 12 with 2026 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:33 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
This is interesting, what I am saying is that in material terms there is no point, but if you want to play Customs Officer and look for some smuggling then go ahead...
A point, or a purpose, or a solution - however you term it in a teleological manner - only seems to arise (or emerge if we want to use the term in vogue) as a result of thought processes. Now these may be evidenced by electrical impulses in the brain but the content (or symbolical value of cell states, networked meaning or whatever) appears to be immaterial. Annoyingly this is what gives matter some value. |
Its about begging the question, and terminology.
You expressed it as if the starting point was that one would expect "a point". Agree with the first sentence of your second para. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:49 - Oct 12 with 2021 views | StokieBlue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 18:55 - Oct 12 by WeWereZombies |
Its a fairly obvious and well worn one, I thought you would be familiar with it. If the material Universe is destined for heat death then what is the point of anything? Yes, entropy survives, but what type of existence is that?
If I were a cosmologist then I might start to explore solutions that went beyond four dimensions (but I am with Sparks, for once, in the criticism that to regard there being a solution is to put the matter (sic) under consideration into the wrong framework). However, my degree is in Philosophy so I can only use that tool box for now. I know I am unusual amongst current philosophers in not fully embracing monism and in dismissing epiphenomenalism but my curiosity gets tickled by questions like what preceded (if that is the right time frame to regard it in) the Big Bang? If thoughts are immaterial how can they move material things like electrical signals? |
You are mixing two subjects that don't need to be mixed. I can understand it given your degree but your fundamental misconception is that there has to be a point. There doesn't have to be - the universe exists within it's own laws and we are a produce for those laws. It would still exist if we weren't here so why associate a point to us or it?
"If thoughts are immaterial how can they move material things like electrical signals?"
Why are thoughts immaterial? They are chemical processes. You are assigning mysticism where there doesn't need to be any.
Why can't there not be a point and why can't we just be a product of specific laws which govern the development of the universe and of life? You are trying to intertwine an evidence based view with a philosophical view when there doesn't need to be a mixing.
SB | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:08 - Oct 12 with 2013 views | Ryorry |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:46 - Oct 12 by sparks |
Its about begging the question, and terminology.
You expressed it as if the starting point was that one would expect "a point". Agree with the first sentence of your second para. |
You seem to be saying that evolution is simply a system that just *is*. That's obviously not enough for some of us. Why should that system of living things continuing through reproduction exist, and not an alternative system of things being a one-off & then just fizzling out?
And if your answer to that is, "that's just how it is", I'm sorry but that's not enough - doesn't answer anything really. | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:14 - Oct 12 with 2009 views | eireblue |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:08 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
You seem to be saying that evolution is simply a system that just *is*. That's obviously not enough for some of us. Why should that system of living things continuing through reproduction exist, and not an alternative system of things being a one-off & then just fizzling out?
And if your answer to that is, "that's just how it is", I'm sorry but that's not enough - doesn't answer anything really. |
Trees falling in forests, on uninhabited islands.
They make a sound.
Doesn’t mean a human is around to hear it.
Evolution is simply a process. |  | | |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:31 - Oct 12 with 2000 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 19:49 - Oct 12 by StokieBlue |
You are mixing two subjects that don't need to be mixed. I can understand it given your degree but your fundamental misconception is that there has to be a point. There doesn't have to be - the universe exists within it's own laws and we are a produce for those laws. It would still exist if we weren't here so why associate a point to us or it?
"If thoughts are immaterial how can they move material things like electrical signals?"
Why are thoughts immaterial? They are chemical processes. You are assigning mysticism where there doesn't need to be any.
Why can't there not be a point and why can't we just be a product of specific laws which govern the development of the universe and of life? You are trying to intertwine an evidence based view with a philosophical view when there doesn't need to be a mixing.
SB |
The chemical processes are the indications of thoughts but not the content of the thoughts themselves (think of this in terms of hardware and software if that makes it easier). Chemical processes and electrical impulses are meaningless without representation, although I am arguing that the material world is meaningless and without a point (even though you and Sparks seem to think that I am arguing the opposite - bit of resistance to the rather terrifying thought that nothing matters, understandable). | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:31 - Oct 12 with 2000 views | jeera |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:14 - Oct 12 by eireblue |
Trees falling in forests, on uninhabited islands.
They make a sound.
Doesn’t mean a human is around to hear it.
Evolution is simply a process. |
This is it.
People seem to think we deserve answers, but we don't. We really, really don't.
"There has to be something". I've heard this so many times.
No, there doesn't. There really doesn't. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:39 - Oct 12 with 1994 views | WeWereZombies |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:31 - Oct 12 by jeera |
This is it.
People seem to think we deserve answers, but we don't. We really, really don't.
"There has to be something". I've heard this so many times.
No, there doesn't. There really doesn't. |
What if we don't deserve answers but some omnipotent sadistic bastid has decided we are going to get them anyway, and when we do they are going to cause our bowels to empty on the spot?
Before we have even had the chance to drop our keks
The sadistic omnipotent bastid
I'm going to think up something even more frightening to shout back at him for when he tries it on me so that he is the one to involuntarily dump.
But as he is omnipotent all that means is that his dump will engulf us all.
He really has got it all worked out.
(Still want the omnipotent bastid to be a woman, Ryorry?) | |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:48 - Oct 12 with 1985 views | Herbivore |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:08 - Oct 12 by Ryorry |
You seem to be saying that evolution is simply a system that just *is*. That's obviously not enough for some of us. Why should that system of living things continuing through reproduction exist, and not an alternative system of things being a one-off & then just fizzling out?
And if your answer to that is, "that's just how it is", I'm sorry but that's not enough - doesn't answer anything really. |
You're making the mistake of thinking you/we are something special that warrants some greater explanation than that we just happen to exist. |  |
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| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 21:04 - Oct 12 with 1975 views | sparks |
| Another one for the science bods - where does my consciousness come from? on 20:48 - Oct 12 by Herbivore |
You're making the mistake of thinking you/we are something special that warrants some greater explanation than that we just happen to exist. |
Quite. The universe doesnt care if its not enough. There is no evidence or foundation for anything else currently. The time to believe something, is when there is some evidence for it. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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