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Dolly Ponders 13:40 - Oct 17 with 4138 viewsBrixtonBlue

I've been pondering again.

Religious folk believe that God created the universe. Fine. Those of you who are atheists, therefore, must surely believe the possibility that there are (or have been) lots of universes?

My thinking is this - we know a universe can come into being from, essentially, nothing. Because we're in one. And within that universe there is never just one of something. There are at least 2,500 species of moth in the UK alone, for example.

So it seems unlikely that only one universe would have developed. If it can happen as easily as it seems to have - and with no outside influence as you atheists believe - then it should have happened countless times? And presumably evolution would have happened in a similar way in all of these times?

I know the multi-verse theory isn't particularly new, but would you agree that if you don't believe God created one universe then it's highly like there are many, many universes (we just can't see/get to them because we're in this one)? When compared to all other events that are able to happen due to the laws of nature/physics etc. it's surely very very unlikely a universe would only come about just one time ever?

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Dolly Ponders on 20:18 - Oct 17 with 582 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 20:03 - Oct 17 by sparks

Actually you really did. And have been. If not in so many words.


Nope. I'm pretty sure I've been asking if people believe in multiple universes. Nowhere have I said, or even hinted at, the question of why we have them.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:19 - Oct 17 with 575 viewssparks

Dolly Ponders on 20:13 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

Alright fella, no need to get rude. This is a lighthearted debate!

I must admit I had you wrong - I always thought you were adamant there is no God.

As for the black swan fallacy - I don't think that's quite right. Ok, there could be one of something that we haven't discovered yet, but everything else we know of has multiples... so it's not too big a logical leap to say that there could be multiple universes. Or even that it's likely, no?

The whole thrust of my OP was that you're more likely to go for multiple universes if you're non-religious.


I dont believe there is a god, because there is not a shred of good evidence for it. I don't claim to know the opposite. Though I would be pretty close to going that far in terms of some specific god claims.

The fallacy remains.

I havent seen it- therefore it doesnt exist.

Given that the universe is something we dont understand, and we can only observe one of- it doesnt make much sense to infer, with absolutely no information at all prior to "planck-time", anything.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:21 - Oct 17 with 568 viewssparks

Dolly Ponders on 20:18 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

Nope. I'm pretty sure I've been asking if people believe in multiple universes. Nowhere have I said, or even hinted at, the question of why we have them.


By asking this "But where did the point of singularity come from? Surely if you go back far enough there is a point where there is nothing, before the point of singularity came into being? "

you essentially did ask what i suggest. We cant see beyond a moment after the start of expansion. We dont know what was before. Or even if "before" makes sense, given that on current understanding, time and space expanded at the same time and are inexorably linked.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:25 - Oct 17 with 564 viewsDurovigutum

Why couldn't God have created multiple universes? If you had the ability to create a universe, and could create another, wouldn't you?
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Dolly Ponders on 20:29 - Oct 17 with 552 viewssparks

Dolly Ponders on 20:25 - Oct 17 by Durovigutum

Why couldn't God have created multiple universes? If you had the ability to create a universe, and could create another, wouldn't you?


If he had any sense he'd have moved on and invented a new one without apples in it.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:30 - Oct 17 with 550 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 20:21 - Oct 17 by sparks

By asking this "But where did the point of singularity come from? Surely if you go back far enough there is a point where there is nothing, before the point of singularity came into being? "

you essentially did ask what i suggest. We cant see beyond a moment after the start of expansion. We dont know what was before. Or even if "before" makes sense, given that on current understanding, time and space expanded at the same time and are inexorably linked.


That was just in reply to Kropotkin on one specific point (when he claimed it didn't come from nothing). I asked where the singularity came from. I didn't ask why.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:32 - Oct 17 with 548 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 20:25 - Oct 17 by Durovigutum

Why couldn't God have created multiple universes? If you had the ability to create a universe, and could create another, wouldn't you?


He could, of course. But religious people, as far as I'm aware, tend to talk as if he only created this one. I'm not aware of any religious texts that make claims for multiple universes.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:38 - Oct 17 with 544 viewsgordon

Not seen the number of moth species in the UK used as a proof for a multi-verse theory before.

Not sure quite what you mean by 'within that universe there is never just one of something' - pretty sure we only know of one Ipswich Town Football Club, for example.
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Dolly Ponders on 20:48 - Oct 17 with 536 viewsWeWereZombies

Dolly Ponders on 20:38 - Oct 17 by gordon

Not seen the number of moth species in the UK used as a proof for a multi-verse theory before.

Not sure quite what you mean by 'within that universe there is never just one of something' - pretty sure we only know of one Ipswich Town Football Club, for example.


You are not following the Town in an alternate Universe where they have just won the Champions League for the fifteenth year in a row then?

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Dolly Ponders on 20:56 - Oct 17 with 530 viewssparks

Dolly Ponders on 20:30 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

That was just in reply to Kropotkin on one specific point (when he claimed it didn't come from nothing). I asked where the singularity came from. I didn't ask why.


The two things seem to me to go absolutely hand in hand.

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Dolly Ponders on 20:56 - Oct 17 with 529 viewsfooters

Dolly Ponders on 20:48 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

You are not following the Town in an alternate Universe where they have just won the Champions League for the fifteenth year in a row then?


I have. But then again I'm on my tenth spliff of the day.

These Dollers threads remind me of being at festivals with severely drugged-up peeps. "Hey man, imagine if you had, like, upper and lowercase numbers... it would be, like, a totally whole new maths."

Quite sweet in a way.


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Dolly Ponders on 21:19 - Oct 17 with 516 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 20:56 - Oct 17 by sparks

The two things seem to me to go absolutely hand in hand.


That's your own interpretation, not what is actually written or implied.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:20 - Oct 17 with 514 viewsWeWereZombies

Dolly Ponders on 20:56 - Oct 17 by footers

I have. But then again I'm on my tenth spliff of the day.

These Dollers threads remind me of being at festivals with severely drugged-up peeps. "Hey man, imagine if you had, like, upper and lowercase numbers... it would be, like, a totally whole new maths."

Quite sweet in a way.



I have refrained from bringing Daniel Dennett into these threads for that very reason.

And now I have gone and ballsed it all up.

So, anyway, the multiple drafts theory of consciousness, thoughts?

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Dolly Ponders on 21:20 - Oct 17 with 514 viewssparks

Dolly Ponders on 21:19 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

That's your own interpretation, not what is actually written or implied.


Not really. The question of what came before (or if "before" is remotely meaningful) is completely tied up with how / why there is something ratehr than nothing. If we knew one, we'd probably have a good shot at the other.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:20 - Oct 17 with 512 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 20:38 - Oct 17 by gordon

Not seen the number of moth species in the UK used as a proof for a multi-verse theory before.

Not sure quite what you mean by 'within that universe there is never just one of something' - pretty sure we only know of one Ipswich Town Football Club, for example.


I kind of meant things that have developed naturally.

But if you want to include man-made things, there are lots of football clubs...

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Dolly Ponders on 21:26 - Oct 17 with 507 viewseireblue

Dolly Ponders on 21:20 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

I kind of meant things that have developed naturally.

But if you want to include man-made things, there are lots of football clubs...


I suppose we should ring up the OED and ask them to remove the word unique.
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Dolly Ponders on 21:28 - Oct 17 with 502 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 21:20 - Oct 17 by sparks

Not really. The question of what came before (or if "before" is remotely meaningful) is completely tied up with how / why there is something ratehr than nothing. If we knew one, we'd probably have a good shot at the other.


That's as maybe, but I still didn't ask the why.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:29 - Oct 17 with 500 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 21:26 - Oct 17 by eireblue

I suppose we should ring up the OED and ask them to remove the word unique.


Can you name one thing that there is only one of?

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Dolly Ponders on 21:33 - Oct 17 with 493 viewsWeWereZombies

Dolly Ponders on 21:29 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

Can you name one thing that there is only one of?


I think you could name any human being to satisfy that enquiry, but if you want to specifically keep it to one then I would put forward Edna O'Brien as the most unique entity possible.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:35 - Oct 17 with 492 viewsStokieBlue

Dolly Ponders on 18:26 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

I'll have a read of that later. What I meant is the universe obeys its own laws - it is allowed to occur within those laws (the same laws that govern evolution). Not sure I explained that all that well, but essentially the connection is that they all obey the same laws. Therefore if 'coming into existence' is allowed, then you'd think it has happened multiple times (and thus evolution has happened multiple times). Just like multiple versions of moths occur, so the universe can occur multiple times if it can occur once.


That's a still a false usage of the two theories.

There was only one moth which mutated into many varieties. There were not many moths starting from the same place. In the multiverse theory all the universe are independent and don't evolve from each other.

You could be thinking of the many worlds interpretation where event possible event is played out but I'm not a huge fan of that.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:36 - Oct 17 with 492 viewsStokieBlue

Dolly Ponders on 18:36 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

Who knows? Maybe that already happened and we are the product of it!


In which case there would be no difference between God and evolved man.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Dolly Ponders on 21:38 - Oct 17 with 490 viewsRyorry

If there were a god, this thread would never have appeared.

The end.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:45 - Oct 17 with 484 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 21:33 - Oct 17 by WeWereZombies

I think you could name any human being to satisfy that enquiry, but if you want to specifically keep it to one then I would put forward Edna O'Brien as the most unique entity possible.


But there are lots of humans. 'Humans' is a thing there are plenty of. NEXT!

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Dolly Ponders on 21:47 - Oct 17 with 478 viewsBrixtonBlue

Dolly Ponders on 21:35 - Oct 17 by StokieBlue

That's a still a false usage of the two theories.

There was only one moth which mutated into many varieties. There were not many moths starting from the same place. In the multiverse theory all the universe are independent and don't evolve from each other.

You could be thinking of the many worlds interpretation where event possible event is played out but I'm not a huge fan of that.

SB


This is a good point actually. You've got me there.

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Dolly Ponders on 21:52 - Oct 17 with 472 viewsHerbivore

Dolly Ponders on 21:29 - Oct 17 by BrixtonBlue

Can you name one thing that there is only one of?


Me.

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