| If you were an MP from any persuasion 12:00 - Oct 19 with 3945 views | Bluefish |
Would you vote for the deal today and why?
I am as staunch remainer as you can find but I think at this point I would have to vote in favour of the deal. I would then campaign in the next GE on a mandate to reverse it. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:00 - Oct 19 with 1562 views | Herbivore |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 15:41 - Oct 19 by m14_blue |
The deal isn't good, no form of Brexit could be, the whole thing is utter madness.
However, we are where we are and there isn't a way out that doesn't harm the UK. A second referendum would be absolutely poisonous and I'm not sure the division would ever heal, even a remain win would just give oxygen to scum like Farage.
A general election would just give Johnson even more power, it's the perfect sh1tstorm.
I'd give anything to turn the clock back to before the referendum and stop this whole act of national suicide but we can't.
Sign the deal and let's try and make the best of it. |
I can't agree with that take on it. The country is already divided, it's naive to think that passing the WA at all costs and moving to the next phase of Brexit will do anything to heal the divisions. The economic fallout of leaving won't do much to ease unrest either. A second referendum wouldn't be without issue but at least it'd be based on two concrete options rather than an abstract idea versus a concrete option. If leave wins then the Remain side doesn't have much option other than to quieten down and regroup. If remain wins then we stay and at least the country is only socially in tatters rather than socially and economically. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:36 - Oct 19 with 1545 views | m14_blue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:00 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
I can't agree with that take on it. The country is already divided, it's naive to think that passing the WA at all costs and moving to the next phase of Brexit will do anything to heal the divisions. The economic fallout of leaving won't do much to ease unrest either. A second referendum wouldn't be without issue but at least it'd be based on two concrete options rather than an abstract idea versus a concrete option. If leave wins then the Remain side doesn't have much option other than to quieten down and regroup. If remain wins then we stay and at least the country is only socially in tatters rather than socially and economically. |
Yep, that's fair enough. I understand your position completely and agree with much of it.
I just can't see a second referendum, particularly when, whatever the result, we will almost certainly have a Tory majority, creating any unity or clarity.
The EU also seem to have given up on us remaining and I think it's in everyone's interests to try and at least make it orderly.
There will be a reckoning for the liars and charlatans who have brought us to this position, but I don't think it will come in the near future. |  | | |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:45 - Oct 19 with 1529 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:36 - Oct 19 by m14_blue |
Yep, that's fair enough. I understand your position completely and agree with much of it.
I just can't see a second referendum, particularly when, whatever the result, we will almost certainly have a Tory majority, creating any unity or clarity.
The EU also seem to have given up on us remaining and I think it's in everyone's interests to try and at least make it orderly.
There will be a reckoning for the liars and charlatans who have brought us to this position, but I don't think it will come in the near future. |
I don't think a Tory majority is a certainty at all.
Even with a GE, it's a time for compromise and stepping back from binary decisions. And certainly No deal vs Revoke which a lot of the debate has fallen into. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:49 - Oct 19 with 1529 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:36 - Oct 19 by m14_blue |
Yep, that's fair enough. I understand your position completely and agree with much of it.
I just can't see a second referendum, particularly when, whatever the result, we will almost certainly have a Tory majority, creating any unity or clarity.
The EU also seem to have given up on us remaining and I think it's in everyone's interests to try and at least make it orderly.
There will be a reckoning for the liars and charlatans who have brought us to this position, but I don't think it will come in the near future. |
It's a shame that the Magna Carta principle of 'Justice delayed is justice denied' is so often overridden, regarding your last sentence if those liars and charlatans had been brought to book before 2016 was out we would all have had a happier and more prosperous last three years. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:52 - Oct 19 with 1523 views | J2BLUE |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 15:50 - Oct 19 by Pinewoodblue |
I like your logic. It must be a flawed poll as I don't agree. You have to.subscribe to see the full article. The choices were:-
Leave with deal 30%
Leave no deal 20%
Remain 42%
The other 8% presumably are brain dead.
The Times chose to headline on the fact it was 50% leave 42% remain |
No, my logic is that it seems more and more are wanting to remain so i'm suspicious when a poll like this appears. I want to know who they asked and where they asked them. I don't think you can just add those together either. Big difference. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:53 - Oct 19 with 1521 views | m14_blue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:45 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
I don't think a Tory majority is a certainty at all.
Even with a GE, it's a time for compromise and stepping back from binary decisions. And certainly No deal vs Revoke which a lot of the debate has fallen into. |
Agree totally with your second paragraph, and that's what this deal is.
No one is going to get exactly what they want from this mess, particularly not us remainers.
I do understand that the Scottish have more reason than most to be annoyed though and would entirely understand if this is the final straw for you lot to break free from Westminster and the little Englanders that form the majority down here. | | | |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:59 - Oct 19 with 1511 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:52 - Oct 19 by J2BLUE |
No, my logic is that it seems more and more are wanting to remain so i'm suspicious when a poll like this appears. I want to know who they asked and where they asked them. I don't think you can just add those together either. Big difference. |
The sample size is also relevant, it if was just fifty people then it is not too relevant.
Somewhat more reliable than the Murdoch influenced Times is the latest from Sir John Curtice:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50043549
But it is a difficult one to call, and a bit complex, so less likely to make it into the tabloids. | |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 17:08 - Oct 19 with 1501 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:53 - Oct 19 by m14_blue |
Agree totally with your second paragraph, and that's what this deal is.
No one is going to get exactly what they want from this mess, particularly not us remainers.
I do understand that the Scottish have more reason than most to be annoyed though and would entirely understand if this is the final straw for you lot to break free from Westminster and the little Englanders that form the majority down here. |
Well, an independence referendum is going to happen, whether it's official or "Catalan".
The past few years of Brexit has just confirmed what many in Scotland already thought about Westminster party politics and the general level of incompetence/self-interest.
But it's all hugely depressing. For Scotland and also the UK - both of which deserve far better from their politicians and associated media. We're all just people who want the politicians we vote for to care about us more than they care about themselves or their parties.
And I think when Conservative party fückwads said they'd rather have Brexit than keep the Union together, the die was cast. | |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 18:53 - Oct 19 with 1470 views | BlueBadger |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 14:31 - Oct 19 by J2BLUE |
Got any details of that poll? I would imagine it was flawed. |
Fancy that, a Brexiteer unable to read something and analyse it properly. |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 19:00 - Oct 19 with 1468 views | Pinewoodblue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 17:08 - Oct 19 by Darth_Koont |
Well, an independence referendum is going to happen, whether it's official or "Catalan".
The past few years of Brexit has just confirmed what many in Scotland already thought about Westminster party politics and the general level of incompetence/self-interest.
But it's all hugely depressing. For Scotland and also the UK - both of which deserve far better from their politicians and associated media. We're all just people who want the politicians we vote for to care about us more than they care about themselves or their parties.
And I think when Conservative party fückwads said they'd rather have Brexit than keep the Union together, the die was cast. |
Since. the days of Cameron several Scottish friends have referred to Westminster as Westmonster, and since Boris was appointed as Westmobster.
It is easy to understand Scots frustrations but aren't we all frustrated with things dragging on.
Brexit, refusal to push a vote of no confidence, failure to approve a General Election MP's are just playing games with each other. Didn't they, a few weeks ago force through a meaningful vote then, today, block one.
Boris will submit his letter seeking a further delay but will then refuse to enter into meaningful discussions anyone's guess iF a delay will be granted.
The temptation for one or more of the 27 to say enough is enough just go must be very high.
Scotland will hold an independence with, or without, the approval of Westminster..
Meanwhile a win at Accrington sees us 4 points clear with a game still in hand. No reason to b3 frustrated there. COYB |  |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 19:44 - Oct 19 with 1434 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 16:52 - Oct 19 by J2BLUE |
No, my logic is that it seems more and more are wanting to remain so i'm suspicious when a poll like this appears. I want to know who they asked and where they asked them. I don't think you can just add those together either. Big difference. |
and the answer is that they have clearly taken 3 different options, added together 2 of them and made it a binary result. 50% leave vs 42% remain. If that is voters taken from a leave-supporting paper's readership as well it makes it even weaker an argument.
What percentage of each of the 2 different leave options would prefer the other option to remain? Once that is factored in who wins? Taken as the 3 separate options remain were clear winners (by 12%).
EDIT: Even if 5% of the 20% who favour no deal prefer remain to the Johnson option, that would be 47% remain vs a maximum 45% leave. [Post edited 19 Oct 2019 19:58]
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:09 - Oct 19 with 1420 views | bluejacko |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 19:44 - Oct 19 by Nthsuffolkblue |
and the answer is that they have clearly taken 3 different options, added together 2 of them and made it a binary result. 50% leave vs 42% remain. If that is voters taken from a leave-supporting paper's readership as well it makes it even weaker an argument.
What percentage of each of the 2 different leave options would prefer the other option to remain? Once that is factored in who wins? Taken as the 3 separate options remain were clear winners (by 12%).
EDIT: Even if 5% of the 20% who favour no deal prefer remain to the Johnson option, that would be 47% remain vs a maximum 45% leave. [Post edited 19 Oct 2019 19:58]
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As with the Eero elections percentages can be made to say what you like!
IF there is a second referendum just what percentage would be required to satisfy anybody?
After all if a vote in the HOC can be accepted with a difference of one vote why was the 52% to 48% not accepted. [Post edited 19 Oct 2019 20:21]
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:20 - Oct 19 with 1409 views | bluejacko |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 19:00 - Oct 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Since. the days of Cameron several Scottish friends have referred to Westminster as Westmonster, and since Boris was appointed as Westmobster.
It is easy to understand Scots frustrations but aren't we all frustrated with things dragging on.
Brexit, refusal to push a vote of no confidence, failure to approve a General Election MP's are just playing games with each other. Didn't they, a few weeks ago force through a meaningful vote then, today, block one.
Boris will submit his letter seeking a further delay but will then refuse to enter into meaningful discussions anyone's guess iF a delay will be granted.
The temptation for one or more of the 27 to say enough is enough just go must be very high.
Scotland will hold an independence with, or without, the approval of Westminster..
Meanwhile a win at Accrington sees us 4 points clear with a game still in hand. No reason to b3 frustrated there. COYB |
Independence for the Scottish ship building industry would be an absolute disaster!
At the moment the Clyde and Rosyth are scheduled to build 15 type 26/31 frigates if independence happens all that work will come south of the border as no foreign country can build UK warships!
Faslane would probably end up being the equivalent of a Sovereign Base Area like we have in Cyprus. Still if that’s what wee krankie wants, good luck.
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:51 - Oct 19 with 1390 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:09 - Oct 19 by bluejacko |
As with the Eero elections percentages can be made to say what you like!
IF there is a second referendum just what percentage would be required to satisfy anybody?
After all if a vote in the HOC can be accepted with a difference of one vote why was the 52% to 48% not accepted. [Post edited 19 Oct 2019 20:21]
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Who says the 52% to 48% wasn't accepted (except perhaps by Cameron who called the referendum in the first place)? Article 50 was enacted, a deal was thrashed out and the ERG said it wasn't good enough. Another attempt at the deal has been agreed and still won't satisfy sufficient leavers. It is now time to confirm what the electorate want - Johnson's deal or to remain … or Johnson's deal vs staying in the customs union vs no deal vs remain. However, it is put it is clear that none of the possible options has the current support of the electorate.
Why should we have a Labour government now because in 2005 that was the result of the general election? If there has been a clear change in public opinion why is the advisory referendum of 3+ years ago so sacrosanct? What is it that leavers fear so much about a confirmatory referendum that JRM suggested even before the first one was taken? | |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:56 - Oct 19 with 1385 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:20 - Oct 19 by bluejacko |
Independence for the Scottish ship building industry would be an absolute disaster!
At the moment the Clyde and Rosyth are scheduled to build 15 type 26/31 frigates if independence happens all that work will come south of the border as no foreign country can build UK warships!
Faslane would probably end up being the equivalent of a Sovereign Base Area like we have in Cyprus. Still if that’s what wee krankie wants, good luck.
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What makes you think Scottish independence would see the contracts move?
How many contracts do we favour placing with UK businesses over the best bid currently? Where in the rest of the UK would they be built?
More interestingly, would all the Scots living south of the border be "sent home" and likewise for the other UK nationals living north of it?
It is depressing how isolationist so much of the whole UK is. | |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 07:53 - Oct 20 with 1347 views | bluejacko |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 20:56 - Oct 19 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What makes you think Scottish independence would see the contracts move?
How many contracts do we favour placing with UK businesses over the best bid currently? Where in the rest of the UK would they be built?
More interestingly, would all the Scots living south of the border be "sent home" and likewise for the other UK nationals living north of it?
It is depressing how isolationist so much of the whole UK is. |
The contracts will be moved the UK does not allow warships to be built outside of the UK due to national security issues etc. Where they will be assembled is a good question but as they are built in a modular form by yards across the UK I am sure they can be put together by a yard with enough space. Camel Laird etc would love the work.
Why would anybody who has made here or Scotland their home be sent ‘home’?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/naval-shipbuilding-continue-clyde-scotland-left- [Post edited 20 Oct 2019 8:18]
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 14:26 - Oct 20 with 1308 views | WeWereZombies |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 07:53 - Oct 20 by bluejacko |
The contracts will be moved the UK does not allow warships to be built outside of the UK due to national security issues etc. Where they will be assembled is a good question but as they are built in a modular form by yards across the UK I am sure they can be put together by a yard with enough space. Camel Laird etc would love the work.
Why would anybody who has made here or Scotland their home be sent ‘home’?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/naval-shipbuilding-continue-clyde-scotland-left- [Post edited 20 Oct 2019 8:18]
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I find that a bit of a strange article given that in the 2014 referendum two things that would subsist afterwards should the Yes vote win were the Queen as sovereign and a unified defence force across the British Isles apart from the Republic of Ireland. I am not arguing with the technical findings, the writer is clearly up on things much more than I am, but that this aspect of the referendum was not considered.
I know there were No voters who feared that sovereignty was just a sop and that another procedure would come along and remove it in the not too distant future if the Ayes had it, but still that is not what the proposal said.
And any future IndyRef is, I suspect, going to be even more watered down than the SuperDevoMax that was put on the table five years ago. Concessions will be made to win votes (although whether they will go as far as guaranteeing some sort of long term future for Faslane I doubt). Another thing that the article didn't face up to was the enormity of the national waters an independent Scotland would claim, you don't patrol that with a couple of trawlers and a canoe. Especially when Russian warships come a'patrolling. The continuance of Royal Navy work around Scotland would be a given. | |
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| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 14:43 - Oct 20 with 1304 views | The_Last_Baron |
| If you were an MP from any persuasion on 12:39 - Oct 19 by hampstead_blue |
A few thoughts in time order, (I think)
Take the deal
My spinal fusion on Nov 6th is a total success and I can walk properly and run again, Marathon De Sable for my 50th birthday
General election
Lib Dems make ground from Tories and Labour, Con small majority.
JC sent to the back benches to continue his love affair with the bad guys
Boris to get us a good permanent deal as his small majority will keep it that way
Trump to be sent to jail and share a cell with Doreen the 20 stone dame of D Wing.
Democrats win and balance out the far right in the US getting us a better trade deal.
ITFC win L1 with a record points total |
Reject the deal. It's a poor deal
Good luck with your spinal fusion, may everything go well and you run the marathon.
Yes to a general election. Much of this mob in parliament are a disgrace.
Lib Dems will win more MPs that they've currently got, that's highly lightly. Who knows who will get a majority if anyone, Johnson has proved himself to be a liar.
Corbyn should retire from public life and take McDonnell with him.
I don't think there is a good permanent deal to be negotiated with the EU. It's either remain as we are of leave on WTO terms. I'm a supporter of telling the EU to get stuffed.
Trump won't be sent to jail and there's more chance of him winning the 2020 election than losing it. Democrats have spent the last two years obsessed with getting Trump impeached as opposed to reorganising and addressing the reasons why Clinton lost.
ITFC will finish top 2 but will not get near 100 points, I reckon 93 |  |
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