| Can we believe anything the Tories say? 12:44 - Nov 5 with 9660 views | BrixtonBlue |
A government plan to create 200,000 new homes in England for first-time buyers has resulted in no homes being built, the National Audit Office has found. Announced in 2014, "starter homes" were meant to be aimed at those under the age of 40 and sold at a 20% discount.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50296672
Why are people even contemplating voting for these barefaced liars? |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:13 - Nov 5 with 2790 views | jeera |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:06 - Nov 5 by BrixtonBlue |
That's pretty unfair Stokers. He hasn't said anything about foreigners. |
Stokie's spot-on.
The attitude of the other poster stank and has only changed tack as he's been pulled up on it.
When someone in position of power lies, it is their fault and responsibility. Hoping your own government isn't another load of two-faced lying pig swill doesn't make one thick. |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:13 - Nov 5 with 2790 views | itfcjoe |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 13:40 - Nov 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
I know how democracy works and one vote shouldn't be worth more than someone else's. It's not about being correct or self-important.
It's about being disappointed that most of us have a logical reason for how we are voting and that counts as much as someone who swallows up whatever lies they are fed. That's the frustrating thing about democracy.
Ideally, we'd all have the tools to make informed decisions. If we then decide differently then fair play, it's down to interpretation and preference. It's just frustrating that one well reasoned, thought out vote can be wiped out by someone who believes whatever a Facebook meme tells them. |
They aren't stupid though, they are people who have interests in other areas and focus their learnings on that in many cases - whether that be a trade, a different job - and they don't have time to worry about politics.
This is a failing of the education system though with regards to critical thinking, but labelling them as stupid is wrong - they may not have hjad the opportunity to learn about certain things. |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:14 - Nov 5 with 2790 views | Herbivore |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 13:35 - Nov 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
How dare you.
There are people in this country that have shockingly low IQ's. Trying to suggest I would substitute them for foreigners, black people, gay people or whatever offensive alternative you want to liken my remarks to is pathetic. You should be ashamed.
The thing is with stupid people is that they are all stupid. You can tar them with the same brush. Unlike foreigners or people of any ethnicity or sexual persuasion who cannot be tarred with any similar, lazy remark about their intelligence, which will clearly vary.
The fact remains if people take the time and effort to try and learn about what political policies will benefit them and society as a whole and how likely the are to be turned into real things rather than just lies or promises to win an election we'd all be better off.
There are plenty of stupid people about. Brexit has proven that. I make no apologies for hating the fact we live in a world where people have voted for Donald Trump to run America and where Boris Johnson is in charge here. It should be unthinkable, but it's reality and that isn't down to the worlds collective thinking and reasoning is it! |
Don't take this the wrong way, but you're coming across as a bit of a dick. |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:14 - Nov 5 with 2786 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:11 - Nov 5 by StokieBlue |
Eh?
I suggest you go back and read what he's written and what I've written. Nowhere did I say he had mentioned foreigners.
You've missed the entire point of all my posts. His posts are awful.
SB [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 14:15]
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Right, sorry, see what you mean. His attitude is similar to the people he's attacking (who distrust foreigners).
I agree his language is a bit strong but I think his overall points are correct. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:16 - Nov 5 with 2772 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:13 - Nov 5 by jeera |
Stokie's spot-on.
The attitude of the other poster stank and has only changed tack as he's been pulled up on it.
When someone in position of power lies, it is their fault and responsibility. Hoping your own government isn't another load of two-faced lying pig swill doesn't make one thick. |
Yeah but if they keep lying and you keep voting for them... | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:20 - Nov 5 with 2756 views | jeera |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:16 - Nov 5 by BrixtonBlue |
Yeah but if they keep lying and you keep voting for them... |
I hate the Tory government, but that's not the point and I'd struggle to vote for them under any circumstances.
Matey's posts were little more than rude and condescending.
The country was built by people who had feck-all education - university as accessible to the general populace is still a new concept.
Frankly came across as jumped-up and narcissistic. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:31 - Nov 5 with 2738 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 13:43 - Nov 5 by StokieBlue |
It's exactly how your post reads - perhaps you should go back and read it. If anyone should be ashamed it's you and given your obviously superior intellect you'll manage to reach that conclusion on your own at some point.
"There are people in this country that have shockingly low IQ's."
What exactly is your point regarding this?
The first paragraph in your previous response implies they probably shouldn't have the vote and then you rant about them basically stating it's all their fault we are in the situation we are in because they are stupid. That's not helpful, in fact that attitude is only going to increase the divide.
If you can't see how that's similar to their arguments then I can't help you.
You should be extolling how we can help them become more informed and make better decisions - you've not done that - you just continually call them stupid and point the finger.
SB |
I am saying that SOCIETY has a duty of care to people who aren't quite as bright as the rest of us, to be factual, truthful and have integrity in matters of national and societal importance.
It's funny how there is, rightly, a duty of care to look after people who can't look after themselves and for those who are not able bodied.
Yet there is no responsibility to fairly inform people who are intellectually challenged that they may be signing their own death warrants by voting for a certain political party.
How are these people ever going to learn when they make no effort to and we give them no platform to? |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:34 - Nov 5 with 2734 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:11 - Nov 5 by StokieBlue |
Eh?
I suggest you go back and read what he's written and what I've written. Nowhere did I say he had mentioned foreigners.
You've missed the entire point of all my posts. His posts are awful.
SB [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 14:15]
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So I can't suggest people are awful or thick or stupid but you get to act all high and mighty by determining my posts are awful?
Isn't it interesting that my vote can't count more than anyone elses, but here apparently your opinion is better than mine.
You can't have it both ways.
Checkmate. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:35 - Nov 5 with 2730 views | SpruceMoose |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:34 - Nov 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
So I can't suggest people are awful or thick or stupid but you get to act all high and mighty by determining my posts are awful?
Isn't it interesting that my vote can't count more than anyone elses, but here apparently your opinion is better than mine.
You can't have it both ways.
Checkmate. |
Oh Gawd. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:36 - Nov 5 with 2726 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 13:46 - Nov 5 by itfcjoe |
I think the lack of critical thinking is the key point here, not something that is really taught until university.
Have you seen this in the States, imagine it is similar here if you were to do it re Brexit and around social classes:
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Thanks Joe.
Genuinely terrifying.
That's my point. The lack of critical thinking.
The fact that Trump only wins with white people without a college education is extremely telling!
Within the white group then, the educated vote against Trump and the uneducated vote for him. Seems to be extremely similar to the position with Johnson, with the small percentage of the wealthy elite no doubt backing him too, despite being educated. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:36 - Nov 5 with 2726 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 13:46 - Nov 5 by itfcjoe |
I think the lack of critical thinking is the key point here, not something that is really taught until university.
Have you seen this in the States, imagine it is similar here if you were to do it re Brexit and around social classes:
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Critical thinking is absolutely something the education system needs to teach better however I think there are other factors too which lead to a split like that
Mainly that those without higher education will in the main be the poorer members of society, and therefore more likely to be disenfranchised etc with the current situation. They also tend to be more impacted by topics like immigration, to choose an obvious topic. Hence people in those brackets will tend to swing towards things like Trump and Brexit, because why vote for the status quo when presented with something different?
It’s incredibly easy to look down on people and assume they’re thick and that views have been formed on lies, however the reality is that their experiences and position in the social ladder will be huge factors. Facebook propaganda only serves to accentuate those views rather than form them IMO |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:40 - Nov 5 with 2719 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:36 - Nov 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
Thanks Joe.
Genuinely terrifying.
That's my point. The lack of critical thinking.
The fact that Trump only wins with white people without a college education is extremely telling!
Within the white group then, the educated vote against Trump and the uneducated vote for him. Seems to be extremely similar to the position with Johnson, with the small percentage of the wealthy elite no doubt backing him too, despite being educated. |
What’s wrong with white people who haven’t had a college education?
Perhaps you should think more around why those people might vote for Trump
Clue: it’s not just because they’re thick and/or racist | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:42 - Nov 5 with 2708 views | usm |
Dolly, Dolly, Dolly....
They're politicians, they all lie, I assumed you'd understood that by now. God help you if they ever tell the truth. |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:47 - Nov 5 with 2686 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:40 - Nov 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
What’s wrong with white people who haven’t had a college education?
Perhaps you should think more around why those people might vote for Trump
Clue: it’s not just because they’re thick and/or racist |
White, uneducated Americans are essentially the largest demographic of poor people in the US are they not?
There are obviously some very poor black, Hispanic and other minority communities, but the white, uneducated people struggling to get by are absolutely ripe for being sold the US dream and told that it's the fault of all the other poor people, of a different ethnicity, taking their jobs, opportunities and so on.
It's no different to what has been sold to British families struggling here, with the whole rhetoric of the Polish, Romanians and Bulgarians taking our jobs and claiming benefits.
Certain politicians will always target the largest groups of disgruntled, disenfranchised, easily manipulated people which sadly will be the uneducated natives of that land and distract them to the real problems by making anyone different the enemy. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:48 - Nov 5 with 2687 views | WD19 |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:42 - Nov 5 by usm |
Dolly, Dolly, Dolly....
They're politicians, they all lie, I assumed you'd understood that by now. God help you if they ever tell the truth. |
To be fair to Dolly, everyone knows that the only ones that lie are the ones on the other side to what you believe in. |  | | |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:49 - Nov 5 with 2676 views | usm |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:11 - Nov 5 by BrixtonBlue |
Whatabouterry.
Also, times change and opinions with them. There's no opinion needed changing about the need for affordable homes. |
Ahh gotcha, so Tory lies are bad and labour lies are not quite so bad, I see.
And some opinions change, but others don't, again I getcha now.
BTW there is affordable housing in the UK. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:50 - Nov 5 with 2672 views | SpruceMoose |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:36 - Nov 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Critical thinking is absolutely something the education system needs to teach better however I think there are other factors too which lead to a split like that
Mainly that those without higher education will in the main be the poorer members of society, and therefore more likely to be disenfranchised etc with the current situation. They also tend to be more impacted by topics like immigration, to choose an obvious topic. Hence people in those brackets will tend to swing towards things like Trump and Brexit, because why vote for the status quo when presented with something different?
It’s incredibly easy to look down on people and assume they’re thick and that views have been formed on lies, however the reality is that their experiences and position in the social ladder will be huge factors. Facebook propaganda only serves to accentuate those views rather than form them IMO |
An interesting question to ponder is, why do such a large number of people never work out that despite voting for right wing candidates over many decades, and having those right wing candidates win repeatedly in many states in the US and many constituencies in the UK, do their experiences and position in the social ladder never improve?
They aren't being presented with a genuine alternative to the status quo by the likes of Trump and Farage, they're being presented with the exact same stuff that has made their lives tough, and the only thing that changes is who they are told to blame when they inevitably get shafted - be it foreigners, immigrants, gays, women, brown folk, or city dwellers.
At what point can we expect someone who is repeatedly fooled, conned and lied to, to stop saying 'well, how was I supposed to know!?' | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:51 - Nov 5 with 2663 views | StokieBlue |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:31 - Nov 5 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
I am saying that SOCIETY has a duty of care to people who aren't quite as bright as the rest of us, to be factual, truthful and have integrity in matters of national and societal importance.
It's funny how there is, rightly, a duty of care to look after people who can't look after themselves and for those who are not able bodied.
Yet there is no responsibility to fairly inform people who are intellectually challenged that they may be signing their own death warrants by voting for a certain political party.
How are these people ever going to learn when they make no effort to and we give them no platform to? |
That is nothing like what you were saying. You're attempting to change the narrative because you've been called on what were frankly, quite nasty views.
To use your analogy, you're attempting to castle out of check.
Hopefully you've taken it on board and moved on.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:52 - Nov 5 with 2655 views | SpruceMoose |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:40 - Nov 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
What’s wrong with white people who haven’t had a college education?
Perhaps you should think more around why those people might vote for Trump
Clue: it’s not just because they’re thick and/or racist |
Them being thick and racist is a reality is at the core of it all.
The real question is why are they thick and racist, and who does it suit to keep them that way?
Perhaps you should think more around which institutional power structures benefit from this situation. Within the US specifically, start with religion, the NRA and the GOP and go from there. [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 14:54]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:00 - Nov 5 with 2625 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:50 - Nov 5 by SpruceMoose |
An interesting question to ponder is, why do such a large number of people never work out that despite voting for right wing candidates over many decades, and having those right wing candidates win repeatedly in many states in the US and many constituencies in the UK, do their experiences and position in the social ladder never improve?
They aren't being presented with a genuine alternative to the status quo by the likes of Trump and Farage, they're being presented with the exact same stuff that has made their lives tough, and the only thing that changes is who they are told to blame when they inevitably get shafted - be it foreigners, immigrants, gays, women, brown folk, or city dwellers.
At what point can we expect someone who is repeatedly fooled, conned and lied to, to stop saying 'well, how was I supposed to know!?' |
I’d be interested to know who all these right wing MP’s are - as aside from UKIP winning a couple of seats I have no idea who you’re referring to. And no, the odd Brexiteer Tory doesn’t really count
Not that I disagree that voting for things like Brexit or Trump are likely to improve things for the poor. I just think it’s easy to see why a change is attractive - if you’re struggling then having people better off than you telling you that Brexit will make the UK poorer is irrelevant, as you’re already poor as it is
As I’ve said before, a much better question to ask is why are more and more people voting for these things, and why don’t some people work out that the more they call these people thick/racist the more votes they seem to get? But I know we don’t see eye to eye on that point so probably best left there | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:00 - Nov 5 with 2624 views | footers |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:52 - Nov 5 by SpruceMoose |
Them being thick and racist is a reality is at the core of it all.
The real question is why are they thick and racist, and who does it suit to keep them that way?
Perhaps you should think more around which institutional power structures benefit from this situation. Within the US specifically, start with religion, the NRA and the GOP and go from there. [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 14:54]
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And don't forget the NFL. |  |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:03 - Nov 5 with 2615 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:52 - Nov 5 by SpruceMoose |
Them being thick and racist is a reality is at the core of it all.
The real question is why are they thick and racist, and who does it suit to keep them that way?
Perhaps you should think more around which institutional power structures benefit from this situation. Within the US specifically, start with religion, the NRA and the GOP and go from there. [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 14:54]
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It’s really not though
17m+ people in the UK aren’t foreigner-hating racist simpletons. Same for 63m Americans
I’ll happily concede I know less about all of the motivations on the latter one, my comments are more based around the situation in the UK and Brexit although from afar there look to be a lot of parallels in the US | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:12 - Nov 5 with 2602 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 14:49 - Nov 5 by usm |
Ahh gotcha, so Tory lies are bad and labour lies are not quite so bad, I see.
And some opinions change, but others don't, again I getcha now.
BTW there is affordable housing in the UK. |
There is, but that's not the point.
That's like saying there are plenty of people who don't use foodbanks so we're all ok. | |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:19 - Nov 5 with 2586 views | SpruceMoose |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:00 - Nov 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I’d be interested to know who all these right wing MP’s are - as aside from UKIP winning a couple of seats I have no idea who you’re referring to. And no, the odd Brexiteer Tory doesn’t really count
Not that I disagree that voting for things like Brexit or Trump are likely to improve things for the poor. I just think it’s easy to see why a change is attractive - if you’re struggling then having people better off than you telling you that Brexit will make the UK poorer is irrelevant, as you’re already poor as it is
As I’ve said before, a much better question to ask is why are more and more people voting for these things, and why don’t some people work out that the more they call these people thick/racist the more votes they seem to get? But I know we don’t see eye to eye on that point so probably best left there |
Genuine question, do you know many of the people you're talking about? I can only directly discuss the people I know - the half of my family who are Midwestern, farming, guns and religion types, and the other quarter who are Brexity types. I'd be curious who you have spoken to in order to come to your conclusions.
The reason many of my own family are thick and racist is not because people like me think they are and from time to time challenge them on their hateful and ridiculous rhetoric. I only think they are thick and racist because of the behaviours they have displayed over many years and the actions they have taken throughout their lives and continue to take.
This isn't a passing fad for any of them. Now, how they got to be that way is a different question. The people they vote for, their religious community, their isolation from people unlike themselves all made them that way. And they made them that way so they can continue to enjoy power without actually helping them.
But my question to you is, if we don't call out racism and stupidity, if we give it a pass by saying they are the way they are because of other people, do you think that helps the racist and stupid people become less racist and stupid? Or does it just let them go about their racism and stupidity in peace without being made to feel uncomfortable? [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 15:25]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:22 - Nov 5 with 2578 views | SpruceMoose |
| Can we believe anything the Tories say? on 15:03 - Nov 5 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It’s really not though
17m+ people in the UK aren’t foreigner-hating racist simpletons. Same for 63m Americans
I’ll happily concede I know less about all of the motivations on the latter one, my comments are more based around the situation in the UK and Brexit although from afar there look to be a lot of parallels in the US |
I agree that there are parallels.
A large group of disenfranchised people vote against their own interests because they have been told that the wrong group of people are to blame for their lives being pretty awful. I don't think we disagree about that.
I just don't agree that the people pointing out their behaviour are to blame for making them way. The people who made them that way, and who are still benefiting from being that way, are they people they are still voting for. [Post edited 5 Nov 2019 15:23]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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