| Equal pay arguement 08:57 - Nov 14 with 3930 views | hampstead_blue |
Interesting topic.
I don't want to see what everyone else is on at my work. It will cause rifts and back stabbing.
Whilst there is discretion and we trust our CEO, he is a proper leader btw, the apple cart is very stable.
If you open this can of worms you'll simply cause infighting.
Open book pay does work in certain places. Army, Government, Civil service, typically Public sector roles.
People have different motivations in that sector.
When you move into different sectors, including charities which is were I now work, it gets political and potentially naughty.
I do feel that pay should be gender neutral. I find paying men more on a gender basis abhorrent.
|  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |  |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:06 - Nov 14 with 3104 views | Guthrum |
Agreed. But if there are employers who insist on continuing the practice, then it becomes very difficult to tackle without direct legislation - which has the risk of being side-stepped (e.g. via bonuses) and which would be too much like interference in private enterprise for a Conservative government to stomach. |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:14 - Nov 14 with 3090 views | sparks |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:06 - Nov 14 by Guthrum |
Agreed. But if there are employers who insist on continuing the practice, then it becomes very difficult to tackle without direct legislation - which has the risk of being side-stepped (e.g. via bonuses) and which would be too much like interference in private enterprise for a Conservative government to stomach. |
Of course, the overall argument about the pay gap has been skewed and is often presented in a less than straightforward way.
There are differences between the choices men and women make. These MAY be partly due to societal conditioning (up for debate in many instances) but leaning on companies does not address those issues at all- it creates unfairness.
It is a fact that more women work part time and it is harder to get on and progress when part time- for obvious reasons. Its also true that job choices are different. A low end female worker might clean or work in tescos. A low end male worker might well be on the bins, or a building site- jobs requiring no more skills, but considerably more physical effort and commanding highe pay as there are fewer able or willing to do the jobs. These are inevitably generalisations- but that must be appropriate when talking about statisitical variances in pay over large numbers.
It is already illegal to pay men and women differently for the same job- as it should be. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:21 - Nov 14 with 3065 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Equal pay is enshrined in law and has been for decades.
Don't confuse the concept of equally pay with the gender pay gap.
There will be differences in some employees salaries for doing similar jobs, but this may be down to experience etc.
Most employers with operate within certain pay bands. |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:24 - Nov 14 with 3053 views | Guthrum |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:14 - Nov 14 by sparks |
Of course, the overall argument about the pay gap has been skewed and is often presented in a less than straightforward way.
There are differences between the choices men and women make. These MAY be partly due to societal conditioning (up for debate in many instances) but leaning on companies does not address those issues at all- it creates unfairness.
It is a fact that more women work part time and it is harder to get on and progress when part time- for obvious reasons. Its also true that job choices are different. A low end female worker might clean or work in tescos. A low end male worker might well be on the bins, or a building site- jobs requiring no more skills, but considerably more physical effort and commanding highe pay as there are fewer able or willing to do the jobs. These are inevitably generalisations- but that must be appropriate when talking about statisitical variances in pay over large numbers.
It is already illegal to pay men and women differently for the same job- as it should be. |
Indeed. | |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:26 - Nov 14 with 3051 views | BloomBlue |
Now its probably because I don't understand it, but what I struggle with on this topic is your salary is surely your personal information?
A year or so ago we had all that GDPR stuff which basically covered 'your data, is your data owned by you'
So if under GDPR your name is PI, your DOB is PI, your NI# is PI why isn't your salary PI? If it is how can it be published without your consent?
I totally agree if 2 people are doing the same job they should be paid the same irrelevant of sex. Although I would add only if both are delivering to the same standard, pay should always be based on performance. |  | | |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:42 - Nov 14 with 3023 views | WD19 |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:26 - Nov 14 by BloomBlue |
Now its probably because I don't understand it, but what I struggle with on this topic is your salary is surely your personal information?
A year or so ago we had all that GDPR stuff which basically covered 'your data, is your data owned by you'
So if under GDPR your name is PI, your DOB is PI, your NI# is PI why isn't your salary PI? If it is how can it be published without your consent?
I totally agree if 2 people are doing the same job they should be paid the same irrelevant of sex. Although I would add only if both are delivering to the same standard, pay should always be based on performance. |
The kool kidz now run companies where people choose their own pay.
Or in some cases where colleagues determine reward based on perceived worth of their colleague. |  | | |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:47 - Nov 14 with 3016 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:26 - Nov 14 by BloomBlue |
Now its probably because I don't understand it, but what I struggle with on this topic is your salary is surely your personal information?
A year or so ago we had all that GDPR stuff which basically covered 'your data, is your data owned by you'
So if under GDPR your name is PI, your DOB is PI, your NI# is PI why isn't your salary PI? If it is how can it be published without your consent?
I totally agree if 2 people are doing the same job they should be paid the same irrelevant of sex. Although I would add only if both are delivering to the same standard, pay should always be based on performance. |
I've worked for a FTSE 100 company where they didn't have published pay scales you had no idea what your co workers, regardless of gender, were earning.
They could be very naughty, I was earning more than the person I nominally reported to. Many a time I was told don't tell anyone what you percentage increase was. |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:58 - Nov 14 with 2999 views | WD19 |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:47 - Nov 14 by Pinewoodblue |
I've worked for a FTSE 100 company where they didn't have published pay scales you had no idea what your co workers, regardless of gender, were earning.
They could be very naughty, I was earning more than the person I nominally reported to. Many a time I was told don't tell anyone what you percentage increase was. |
I employ people on more money than me, I consider that relatively normal if it is a skill that is in short supply and I need it.
People get far too hung up on what others earn.
I have got a 'live' situation at the moment where I saved someone from performance managed exit by moving them into a role that better suited. As a consequence they earn a bit more than they should for the role they now do.......and within 6 months they are moaning that they "don't think they are valued enough and should be paid more" (because they have heard that one other person (in a company of 1500+) gets about 5% more than them for doing a considerably more technically complex role). | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Equal pay arguement on 10:03 - Nov 14 with 2990 views | hampstead_blue |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:26 - Nov 14 by BloomBlue |
Now its probably because I don't understand it, but what I struggle with on this topic is your salary is surely your personal information?
A year or so ago we had all that GDPR stuff which basically covered 'your data, is your data owned by you'
So if under GDPR your name is PI, your DOB is PI, your NI# is PI why isn't your salary PI? If it is how can it be published without your consent?
I totally agree if 2 people are doing the same job they should be paid the same irrelevant of sex. Although I would add only if both are delivering to the same standard, pay should always be based on performance. |
Agreed.
I think I tied two topics into one.
1) Releasing the knowledge of who get's paid what.
2) Gender equality in pay.
Someone said it is illegal to discriminate and the Tesco ladies went to court. I agree totally about that.
The main thrust was down to a female Labour candidate on the Today program telling us we should all know what everyone else gets paid.
That is wrong and right. My point alludes to the public sector having 'known' salaries. It works there.
Were it doesn't and won't work is in charities and the private sector. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:04 - Nov 14 with 2984 views | sparks |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:58 - Nov 14 by WD19 |
I employ people on more money than me, I consider that relatively normal if it is a skill that is in short supply and I need it.
People get far too hung up on what others earn.
I have got a 'live' situation at the moment where I saved someone from performance managed exit by moving them into a role that better suited. As a consequence they earn a bit more than they should for the role they now do.......and within 6 months they are moaning that they "don't think they are valued enough and should be paid more" (because they have heard that one other person (in a company of 1500+) gets about 5% more than them for doing a considerably more technically complex role). |
One interesting argument is the idea that part time workers should be paid the same- and that the tendency for that not always to happen discrimnates against women. I have some sympathy for that view which, on the surface, may well be correct.
There are many instances though, where a part time worker inevitably will find it harder to progress for entirely reasonable reasons.
If you have a big client and are deciding which employee is going to be their main contact - do you pick the employee who is there daily, working late until 6.30 and always available when the client wants something, or do you pick the part timer (who is equally competent) who finishes at 2.30 each day to collect children etc, and generally isnt contactable thereafter?
It ties in to the other common beef about part time workers. Full timers often work longer than contracted hours. Part timers do so far less often.- I suspect- theres no point being part time if you come in on your days off, or leave at the same time as everyone else! | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:05 - Nov 14 with 2985 views | sparks |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:03 - Nov 14 by hampstead_blue |
Agreed.
I think I tied two topics into one.
1) Releasing the knowledge of who get's paid what.
2) Gender equality in pay.
Someone said it is illegal to discriminate and the Tesco ladies went to court. I agree totally about that.
The main thrust was down to a female Labour candidate on the Today program telling us we should all know what everyone else gets paid.
That is wrong and right. My point alludes to the public sector having 'known' salaries. It works there.
Were it doesn't and won't work is in charities and the private sector. |
Is that the tesco checkout people who could choose to work in the warehouse, but preferred tills- and then said it was sexist that they didnt get paid the same as the warehouse folks (who chose warehouse over tills...)?
I never saw the outcome of that- but I struggled with their argument... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:09 - Nov 14 with 2966 views | noggin |
Over here, everybody's earnings and tax contributions are released publicly, annually. Doesn't seem to cause any ill feeling as far as I have seen. [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 10:09]
|  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:12 - Nov 14 with 2955 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Doesn't work very well in football does ito r Toto would get the same as Raheem?
And the women currently chuntering to get a few more hundred thousand a year to read their autocues at the BBC for two hours a day don't mind getting their jobs because, by and large they are eye candy to sit next to an ugly bloke. |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:24 - Nov 14 with 2917 views | sparks |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:12 - Nov 14 by ElephantintheRoom |
Doesn't work very well in football does ito r Toto would get the same as Raheem?
And the women currently chuntering to get a few more hundred thousand a year to read their autocues at the BBC for two hours a day don't mind getting their jobs because, by and large they are eye candy to sit next to an ugly bloke. |
You appear to have strayed off message. Will your momentum paymasters take appropriate action? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:32 - Nov 14 with 2880 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Equal pay arguement on 09:14 - Nov 14 by sparks |
Of course, the overall argument about the pay gap has been skewed and is often presented in a less than straightforward way.
There are differences between the choices men and women make. These MAY be partly due to societal conditioning (up for debate in many instances) but leaning on companies does not address those issues at all- it creates unfairness.
It is a fact that more women work part time and it is harder to get on and progress when part time- for obvious reasons. Its also true that job choices are different. A low end female worker might clean or work in tescos. A low end male worker might well be on the bins, or a building site- jobs requiring no more skills, but considerably more physical effort and commanding highe pay as there are fewer able or willing to do the jobs. These are inevitably generalisations- but that must be appropriate when talking about statisitical variances in pay over large numbers.
It is already illegal to pay men and women differently for the same job- as it should be. |
Agree completely with all but the last sentence:
"It is already illegal to pay men and women differently for the same job- as it should be."
As it should be? Yes, people should start on the same amount, but I'd say it's impossible to maintain that in many jobs. Imagine you and I are doing the same job. We're both very good at what we do and replacements aren't easy to find.
Come annual performance review time, you say you want out because you've found a better offer from somewhere else. Your boss is keen to keep you. Does he let you go? Does he make you and me the same to keep you? Or does he just give you the 10% increase he needs to pay to keep you and gives me the 2% inflation linked increase? [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 10:34]
|  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:33 - Nov 14 with 2878 views | WD19 |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:04 - Nov 14 by sparks |
One interesting argument is the idea that part time workers should be paid the same- and that the tendency for that not always to happen discrimnates against women. I have some sympathy for that view which, on the surface, may well be correct.
There are many instances though, where a part time worker inevitably will find it harder to progress for entirely reasonable reasons.
If you have a big client and are deciding which employee is going to be their main contact - do you pick the employee who is there daily, working late until 6.30 and always available when the client wants something, or do you pick the part timer (who is equally competent) who finishes at 2.30 each day to collect children etc, and generally isnt contactable thereafter?
It ties in to the other common beef about part time workers. Full timers often work longer than contracted hours. Part timers do so far less often.- I suspect- theres no point being part time if you come in on your days off, or leave at the same time as everyone else! |
In nearly every instance I can think of, part time workers (which skew female) in my company get more (pro rata), not less than their colleagues. In effect, they are getting paid a premium because you get access to their skill, but don't have to pay them a full time wage.
But gender pay gap stuff doesn't do pro-rata does it (?) its only interested in absolute. | | | |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:49 - Nov 14 with 2830 views | homer_123 |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:32 - Nov 14 by caught-in-limbo |
Agree completely with all but the last sentence:
"It is already illegal to pay men and women differently for the same job- as it should be."
As it should be? Yes, people should start on the same amount, but I'd say it's impossible to maintain that in many jobs. Imagine you and I are doing the same job. We're both very good at what we do and replacements aren't easy to find.
Come annual performance review time, you say you want out because you've found a better offer from somewhere else. Your boss is keen to keep you. Does he let you go? Does he make you and me the same to keep you? Or does he just give you the 10% increase he needs to pay to keep you and gives me the 2% inflation linked increase? [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 10:34]
|
Moreover, what if you are technically both competent at your job but your colleague goes the extra mile, takes on extra responsibilities etc etc should you both get paid the same? |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:10 - Nov 14 with 2798 views | sparks |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:49 - Nov 14 by homer_123 |
Moreover, what if you are technically both competent at your job but your colleague goes the extra mile, takes on extra responsibilities etc etc should you both get paid the same? |
At that point- you are not doing the same job. But clearly this is problematic when it comes to immposing some sort of rigid checks and structure. You quickly disincentivise those that go the extra.
It might also feed into the pay gap again- because women who choose to be p/t or have parental responsibilities which they prioritise may be less likely to go the extra mile. And, in our society, it is still the case that women are more likely to be adopting those roles than men. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:18 - Nov 14 with 2785 views | homer_123 |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:10 - Nov 14 by sparks |
At that point- you are not doing the same job. But clearly this is problematic when it comes to immposing some sort of rigid checks and structure. You quickly disincentivise those that go the extra.
It might also feed into the pay gap again- because women who choose to be p/t or have parental responsibilities which they prioritise may be less likely to go the extra mile. And, in our society, it is still the case that women are more likely to be adopting those roles than men. |
Then you are into realms of extremely vaired job descriptions to allow you to pay different wages to different people that do fundamentally the same job.
It's easier to do that (tweak a job description) than to evidence and justify the alternative. | |
| |
| lollerama on 11:21 - Nov 14 with 2776 views | Dyland |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:12 - Nov 14 by ElephantintheRoom |
Doesn't work very well in football does ito r Toto would get the same as Raheem?
And the women currently chuntering to get a few more hundred thousand a year to read their autocues at the BBC for two hours a day don't mind getting their jobs because, by and large they are eye candy to sit next to an ugly bloke. |
 |  |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:25 - Nov 14 with 2770 views | hampstead_blue |
| Equal pay arguement on 10:05 - Nov 14 by sparks |
Is that the tesco checkout people who could choose to work in the warehouse, but preferred tills- and then said it was sexist that they didnt get paid the same as the warehouse folks (who chose warehouse over tills...)?
I never saw the outcome of that- but I struggled with their argument... |
I was alluding to that.
If my memory serves me right the checkout staff wanted the same as the warehouse staff.
If they are in the same pay band then fine.
As a kid I worked on a till at Gateway and then the Coop in Halstead. It was fun but you can get some right frosty hags sometimes.
In the warehouse, where I also worked at the same places, it was actually easier. More relaxed and you could nip out by the bins for a shifty fag.
I'd put them on a par as dealing with the public when you've got a hangover/migraine/menopause/crappy day is awful. At least out the back you can have a good old whinge and be grumpy.
I know my oppo gets less than me but that's down to experience and expertise in the role. He was also an Army helicopter pilot so is a tad good at that, but we're not flying in this role......Charlie Don't Surf!!!!!! | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:36 - Nov 14 with 2756 views | homer_123 |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:25 - Nov 14 by hampstead_blue |
I was alluding to that.
If my memory serves me right the checkout staff wanted the same as the warehouse staff.
If they are in the same pay band then fine.
As a kid I worked on a till at Gateway and then the Coop in Halstead. It was fun but you can get some right frosty hags sometimes.
In the warehouse, where I also worked at the same places, it was actually easier. More relaxed and you could nip out by the bins for a shifty fag.
I'd put them on a par as dealing with the public when you've got a hangover/migraine/menopause/crappy day is awful. At least out the back you can have a good old whinge and be grumpy.
I know my oppo gets less than me but that's down to experience and expertise in the role. He was also an Army helicopter pilot so is a tad good at that, but we're not flying in this role......Charlie Don't Surf!!!!!! |
Herein lies the problem.
"...experience and expertise in the role."
Strictly speaking, if you are both employed to do that role, then you should be paid the same nowadays. | |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 12:06 - Nov 14 with 2726 views | tabletopjoe |
One interesting point is that the more egalitarian the country is, such as in Scandinavia where women enjoy one of the highest maternity leave and pay packages, the wider the salary gap is between men and women. |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
| |
| Equal pay arguement on 13:15 - Nov 14 with 2600 views | saxon |
| Equal pay arguement on 11:18 - Nov 14 by homer_123 |
Then you are into realms of extremely vaired job descriptions to allow you to pay different wages to different people that do fundamentally the same job.
It's easier to do that (tweak a job description) than to evidence and justify the alternative. |
"Then you are into realms of extremely vaired job descriptions to allow you to pay different wages to different people that do fundamentally the same job.
It's easier to do that (tweak a job description) than to evidence and justify the alternative."
Or you can just offer them different terms. So paid overtime/on-call, and more holiday for your male staff, but not the female ones in the same role. You justify by saying terms are an individual negotiation, not admitting that your starting offer will vary. (Also works on the probability that women are assumed less likely to drive a hard bargain and negotiate up).
Even the gender pay gap reporting can be manipulated - so you put your Female SysAdmin (a technical role) into "administration" for reporting (which makes your female average there go up, and gives you an excuse to only offer pay rises to the male staff to close that gap!) rather than IT technical where it shows up as a gender pay gap when you only have one female who is then evidently lower paid than the male staff. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
