| free broadband for all 22:08 - Nov 14 with 12705 views | lowhouseblue |
nationalising bt and we all get free broad band. cool.
come on labour, add sky to the list so that we get free sky sports as well - what's the point of having the free broadband otherwise.
yeah free stuff. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| free broadband for all on 23:01 - Nov 14 with 3752 views | Clapham_Junction |
| free broadband for all on 22:51 - Nov 14 by StokieBlue |
That's not really the point though is it? Perhaps they don't want their infrastructure taken from them without recourse, especially as McDonnell has said compensation to shareholders in all these purchases won't be at market rate.
I just think this is more complex than nationalisation of utilities or trains because there is still privately owned competition rather than monopolies. It's just a bit of a slippery slope in my opinion - it could literally lead anywhere - privatisation of Sainsbury's then undercutting of the prices of other supermarkets using tax revenue driving them out of business.
A silly example but illustrates the point.
SB [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 22:53]
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I wasn't trying to make any point about this. I was just talking about this from the theoretical viewpoint of whether having broadband as a taxpayer funded monopoly would be better than the current market situation rather than how that change is achieved.
I don't think nationalising a utility and one that is effectively already a monopoly in many places is a slippery slope towards nationalising supermarkets. The two aren't comparable at all IMO. |  | | |
| free broadband for all on 23:06 - Nov 14 with 3737 views | lowhouseblue |
| free broadband for all on 22:59 - Nov 14 by Ryorry |
It did make BBC1 10pm news.
I just don't get it tho, seems very odd & actually minor in terms of what people want, which is putting most of what's available into the NHS/social care for vulnerable people in the community (children, elderly, disabled) + other essential sevices such as police, fire etc.
BT doesn't reach rural communities like ours yet, but no-one really objects to paying £20 monthly (or £25 for a higher speed) for a LAN broadband network operated by an excellent independent. What they do object to is not being able to get an appointment with their GP for 5 (five ) weeks unless it's so urgent that they have to ring up at 7.59am to try and beat the queue for a same-day real crisis type health issue. |
i agree absolutely. i think it will worry more people than it attracts.
it feels like the labour campaign is all over the place - a lack of message discipline and key policy still not decided. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| free broadband for all on 23:07 - Nov 14 with 3730 views | StokieBlue |
| free broadband for all on 23:01 - Nov 14 by Clapham_Junction |
I wasn't trying to make any point about this. I was just talking about this from the theoretical viewpoint of whether having broadband as a taxpayer funded monopoly would be better than the current market situation rather than how that change is achieved.
I don't think nationalising a utility and one that is effectively already a monopoly in many places is a slippery slope towards nationalising supermarkets. The two aren't comparable at all IMO. |
I didn't equate them and I didn't say it was going to happen - it was a silly example to make a point about how nationalising something in an industry that isn't already a monopoly is likely to drive everyone else out of the market.
It's not a monopoly in broadband though - Virgin owns it's own infrastructure and is a direct competitor. It would literally be bankrupted by this move because the nationalised BT won't be charging - that's impossible to compete against.
I'm not specifically against nationalising BT - I just think it's more complex than the other utilities they want to nationalise as they will be monopolies with no private competitors - that won't be the case with British Broadband.
SB [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 23:10]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| free broadband for all on 23:29 - Nov 14 with 3690 views | StokieBlue |
| free broadband for all on 23:17 - Nov 14 by Clapham_Junction |
As I said, if this were to happen it would make sense to take over Virgin's network as well and absorb its into the system as (a) Virgin's existence would be pointless and (b) having two separate networks is an inefficient use of infrastructure.
In the vast majority of the UK, the BT network is a monopoly - the map below is where the Virgin network is restricted to.
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I guess we just differ here. I don't think it's particular right than a company that has never been state owned and haven't made mistakes (they aren't in need of a rescue package like some other companies) should be seized with in the manner you are suggesting or driven out of business due to a government monopoly.
If a private company abused a position of power like that it would be against EU anti-competition laws.
I don't particularly care for Virgin either - it's more the precedence it sets.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| free broadband for all on 23:53 - Nov 14 with 3669 views | jeera |
| free broadband for all on 23:29 - Nov 14 by StokieBlue |
I guess we just differ here. I don't think it's particular right than a company that has never been state owned and haven't made mistakes (they aren't in need of a rescue package like some other companies) should be seized with in the manner you are suggesting or driven out of business due to a government monopoly.
If a private company abused a position of power like that it would be against EU anti-competition laws.
I don't particularly care for Virgin either - it's more the precedence it sets.
SB |
But there may be other options to run in conjunction; with staged profit caps and a gradual buy-out?
I won't pretend to have any answers but perhaps it wouldn't have to be so aggressive as a seized assets approach. [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 23:54]
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| free broadband for all on 23:58 - Nov 14 with 3664 views | Clapham_Junction |
| free broadband for all on 23:29 - Nov 14 by StokieBlue |
I guess we just differ here. I don't think it's particular right than a company that has never been state owned and haven't made mistakes (they aren't in need of a rescue package like some other companies) should be seized with in the manner you are suggesting or driven out of business due to a government monopoly.
If a private company abused a position of power like that it would be against EU anti-competition laws.
I don't particularly care for Virgin either - it's more the precedence it sets.
SB |
I haven't suggested how they should be seized. I don't understand why you seem so determined to put words into my mouth about this. | | | |
| free broadband for all on 00:01 - Nov 15 with 3656 views | jeera |
| free broadband for all on 23:58 - Nov 14 by Clapham_Junction |
I haven't suggested how they should be seized. I don't understand why you seem so determined to put words into my mouth about this. |
Well I think it should be achieved at gunpoint but realise I may be alone in this. | |
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| free broadband for all on 00:03 - Nov 15 with 3650 views | TractorWood |
| free broadband for all on 22:12 - Nov 14 by Dubtractor |
I posted this the other day, feel like it should be reposted.
"And whilst I am a Labour voter, prob my biggest frustration with the current lot is that they are trying to offer literally everything possible from a left wing utopia perspective. It makes it too easy for people to criticise them for reckless spending.
There are lots of things that need sorting, and need sorting really quickly. Re nationalising utilities or rail for example are not in that category for me, much as I feel that they should never have been privatised to enable foreign companies to run all our utilities and railways!" |
Agree. Totally unappealing scatter gun of reckless spending and non-urgent policies.
The two main parties offer to either destroy the country through neglect and shameless prioritisation of the wealthy establishment or reckless spending that's guaranteed to bankrupt the country. |  |
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| free broadband for all on 00:09 - Nov 15 with 3640 views | jeera |
| free broadband for all on 00:03 - Nov 15 by TractorWood |
Agree. Totally unappealing scatter gun of reckless spending and non-urgent policies.
The two main parties offer to either destroy the country through neglect and shameless prioritisation of the wealthy establishment or reckless spending that's guaranteed to bankrupt the country. |
But surely how that's worded...
I mean, we're not talking of revolution and the overnight seizing and nationalizing of what may become publicly owned services.
It is a long-term plan which is supposed to offer equality and accessibility to all.
I'm not suggesting it's even possible, but it should be recognised if that is the overall aim rather than pretend it's some coup. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 0:09]
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| free broadband for all on 05:18 - Nov 15 with 3583 views | Ryorry |
| free broadband for all on 00:09 - Nov 15 by jeera |
But surely how that's worded...
I mean, we're not talking of revolution and the overnight seizing and nationalizing of what may become publicly owned services.
It is a long-term plan which is supposed to offer equality and accessibility to all.
I'm not suggesting it's even possible, but it should be recognised if that is the overall aim rather than pretend it's some coup. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 0:09]
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There already is "equality and accessibility to all" - as far as I'm aware, every single library in the country offers at least half an hour daily free internet access to all, including the hardware, and usually free training in how to use it as well. Plus further hours at very low cost. Not to mention free wifi in places such as internet cafes, hospitals, etc etc.
Offering it by nationalising BT is surely fraught with horrendous inbuilt difficulties - what about all the different levels of packages people already have for phone+internet+TV? who is going to provide the computers or phones for those people who don't already have the hardware? Quite apart from BT's incompetence - personally, I'd rather pay £20 monthly to a reliable independent than have BT's appalling unreliability & dreadful customer service for free (I've been a phone customer of theirs for more years than I care to remember).
And in all the GEs there've been since the invention of the net, I've yet to hear one person say, when asked about what their priorities are when it comes to putting their X on the ballot paper at the polling station - "free internet access". |  |
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| free broadband for all on 06:58 - Nov 15 with 3548 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| free broadband for all on 00:03 - Nov 15 by TractorWood |
Agree. Totally unappealing scatter gun of reckless spending and non-urgent policies.
The two main parties offer to either destroy the country through neglect and shameless prioritisation of the wealthy establishment or reckless spending that's guaranteed to bankrupt the country. |
Yes, I remember the furore when Blair and co were handing out free money to every family having a child and then more on subsequent birthdays.....oh! |  |
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| free broadband for all on 07:28 - Nov 15 with 3517 views | BackToRussia |
| free broadband for all on 05:18 - Nov 15 by Ryorry |
There already is "equality and accessibility to all" - as far as I'm aware, every single library in the country offers at least half an hour daily free internet access to all, including the hardware, and usually free training in how to use it as well. Plus further hours at very low cost. Not to mention free wifi in places such as internet cafes, hospitals, etc etc.
Offering it by nationalising BT is surely fraught with horrendous inbuilt difficulties - what about all the different levels of packages people already have for phone+internet+TV? who is going to provide the computers or phones for those people who don't already have the hardware? Quite apart from BT's incompetence - personally, I'd rather pay £20 monthly to a reliable independent than have BT's appalling unreliability & dreadful customer service for free (I've been a phone customer of theirs for more years than I care to remember).
And in all the GEs there've been since the invention of the net, I've yet to hear one person say, when asked about what their priorities are when it comes to putting their X on the ballot paper at the polling station - "free internet access". |
Yeah, there will be a bit more in the manifesto than a blank page with "free Internet" on it. Why are you wilfully ignoring other policies they have announced? |  |
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| free broadband for all on 07:51 - Nov 15 with 3503 views | StokieBlue |
| free broadband for all on 23:53 - Nov 14 by jeera |
But there may be other options to run in conjunction; with staged profit caps and a gradual buy-out?
I won't pretend to have any answers but perhaps it wouldn't have to be so aggressive as a seized assets approach. [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 23:54]
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How can anything which is run as a business compete with something that is run on a subsidised basis offering a totally free service?
If they don't take the seize the assets then Virgin go bankrupt anyway - it's essentially the government forcing a company that hasn't done anything to cease to exist.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| free broadband for all on 07:55 - Nov 15 with 3501 views | StokieBlue |
| free broadband for all on 23:58 - Nov 14 by Clapham_Junction |
I haven't suggested how they should be seized. I don't understand why you seem so determined to put words into my mouth about this. |
I don't think I've put words into your mouth and apologies if you feel that way but you seem to be dismissing my concerns as "tough luck".
You have suggested a couple of times that Virgin should have it's assets seized as well given they are a pointless entity after this. I have issues with this given my previous answers. I don't like the idea of seizing assets from companies or people who haven't done anything wrong.
You've previously given backing for McDonnells approach to asset purchases (ie. below market rate and in debt) and thus it seems unlikely any purchase of Virgin would be different - that is his model.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| free broadband for all on 08:01 - Nov 15 with 3494 views | Dubtractor |
| free broadband for all on 07:28 - Nov 15 by BackToRussia |
Yeah, there will be a bit more in the manifesto than a blank page with "free Internet" on it. Why are you wilfully ignoring other policies they have announced? |
My frustration is that there is a lit of good stuff, but the more "nice things" that keep getting thrown into the mix, the more it gets diluted.
Get our NHS, local government support services etc properly funded. Make sure that our society leaves no one behind. Don't bother with things like free broadband which aren't needed.
Maybe revisit the idea of nationalising loads of stuff in 5 years if it's all going to plan. |  |
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| free broadband for all on 08:05 - Nov 15 with 3488 views | WD19 |
| free broadband for all on 08:01 - Nov 15 by Dubtractor |
My frustration is that there is a lit of good stuff, but the more "nice things" that keep getting thrown into the mix, the more it gets diluted.
Get our NHS, local government support services etc properly funded. Make sure that our society leaves no one behind. Don't bother with things like free broadband which aren't needed.
Maybe revisit the idea of nationalising loads of stuff in 5 years if it's all going to plan. |
Exactly this. Yesterday they were talking about the NHS and the fact that there was no money available to fund a 4 day week and it would need to be funded by ‘efficiency gains’.
Now today they are talking about spending £100bn (Estimated) on this. |  | | |
| free broadband for all on 08:11 - Nov 15 with 3480 views | RRB |
No chance. Saw in one article that it could cost up to 100bn. |  | | |
| free broadband for all on 08:11 - Nov 15 with 3480 views | BackToRussia |
| free broadband for all on 08:01 - Nov 15 by Dubtractor |
My frustration is that there is a lit of good stuff, but the more "nice things" that keep getting thrown into the mix, the more it gets diluted.
Get our NHS, local government support services etc properly funded. Make sure that our society leaves no one behind. Don't bother with things like free broadband which aren't needed.
Maybe revisit the idea of nationalising loads of stuff in 5 years if it's all going to plan. |
I dunno about you, but our broadband bill is about 80 quid. Would be a saving of a grand a year.
I'm not sure I quite get the argument that good things can dilute other things.
The broadband thing is scheduled for 2030 isn't it? | |
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| free broadband for all on 08:12 - Nov 15 with 3478 views | lowhouseblue |
| free broadband for all on 08:05 - Nov 15 by WD19 |
Exactly this. Yesterday they were talking about the NHS and the fact that there was no money available to fund a 4 day week and it would need to be funded by ‘efficiency gains’.
Now today they are talking about spending £100bn (Estimated) on this. |
according to bevan the language of priorities is the religion of socialism! where as this lot can't prioritise anything - it's all bundled together at a cost of hundreds and hundreds of billions and all the important stuff is just lost in the mix.
they seem to be re-fighting the 1983 election - and of course that ended well. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| free broadband for all on 08:13 - Nov 15 with 3470 views | lowhouseblue |
| free broadband for all on 08:11 - Nov 15 by BackToRussia |
I dunno about you, but our broadband bill is about 80 quid. Would be a saving of a grand a year.
I'm not sure I quite get the argument that good things can dilute other things.
The broadband thing is scheduled for 2030 isn't it? |
so that's an additional £1,000 per household in tax that needs to be raised (in addition to all the other taxes) in order to give everyone free broadband. cool. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| free broadband for all on 08:14 - Nov 15 with 3464 views | BackToRussia |
| free broadband for all on 08:13 - Nov 15 by lowhouseblue |
so that's an additional £1,000 per household in tax that needs to be raised (in addition to all the other taxes) in order to give everyone free broadband. cool. |
You seem to have a real problem with taxation. What's the problem? Many people do not pay nearly enough tax. | |
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| free broadband for all on 08:16 - Nov 15 with 3454 views | hampstead_blue |
| free broadband for all on 22:27 - Nov 14 by StokieBlue |
Surely this would fall foul of some EU rules?
Virgin have spent loads laying their own infrastructure and to have that suddenly usurped by a free service for all (essentially this would bankrupt them) must carry some issues.
I am still against McDonnell deciding the price for these purchases and then funding them in government bonds. I know you don't think that will have repercussions for external investment in the UK but if your investment can be suddenly seized and you are compensated in assets rather than cash I think it could put a lot of companies off.
SB |
Repatriation of assets is a very risky policy.
I realise they are offering a price 'to be determined by parliament' but it is effectively a repatriation.
Foreign countries and investors will think incredibly carefully before investing in the UK.
We will soon become a very high tax nation with only the state willing to invest. Race to the bottom.
In addition to that problem, investors will once again suffer. BT shares are held across the majority of pension funds. The dividends are critical.
JM replacing shares with debt is a bad trade. He has just said on R4 that HE think investors don't want equities and says that debt is better. He has some brass neck.
Lethal. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| free broadband for all on 08:16 - Nov 15 with 3454 views | lowhouseblue |
| free broadband for all on 08:14 - Nov 15 by BackToRussia |
You seem to have a real problem with taxation. What's the problem? Many people do not pay nearly enough tax. |
and you seem to think that taxation is a bottomless pit that will give you endless free stuff.
you can only spend tax revenue once. which do you really want a properly funded nhs or free broadband? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| free broadband for all on 08:19 - Nov 15 with 3446 views | BackToRussia |
| free broadband for all on 08:16 - Nov 15 by lowhouseblue |
and you seem to think that taxation is a bottomless pit that will give you endless free stuff.
you can only spend tax revenue once. which do you really want a properly funded nhs or free broadband? |
I'll take both thank you.
I presume you're looking at a spreadsheet of the government spending and tax takes and working it all out and know better than me that we can't afford both, or maybe you're just presenting an ideological false dilemma. | |
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