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Corbyn on Brexit 08:35 - Nov 21 with 3043 viewsuefacup81

Unless I've missed something, why is it so vitally important that he come down on one side or other of the argument? From what I've read in recent days, Ted Heath refused to 'pick a side' at the time of the 1973 referendum, and the world didn't end.

Given that the Labour policy is to renegotiate the deal so that it allows the UK to remain within the Free Trade area, and then put it to a referendum with the other option being to remain within the EU, surely it makes sense for Labour to remain neutral if their stance is for the people to decide?

I'd much rather see a Labour government essentially saying "here are the two options, and here are the facts surrounding both. Now go away, have a read and a think, and draw your own conclusions", as opposed to having them champion just one side of the coin.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 08:39 - Nov 21 with 1629 viewsGlasgowBlue

We didn’t have a referendum to join in 1973. We had a leave v remain referendum in 1975.

Ted Heath campaigned for remain.

Btw Ted Heath wasn’t leader of HMO when we had the referendum, Thatcher was and she campaigned for remain.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2019 8:43]

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Corbyn on Brexit on 08:42 - Nov 21 with 1607 viewsWeWereZombies

I suppose so, especially given Swinson's brave stance (which now seems to have been undermined by Ed Davey losing his nerve and talking about options in a hung Parliament) and Johnson's craven vote chasing in the other direction. However most newspapers and broadcasters seem intent on polarising the issues and by not taking an easy to appreciate position Corbyn leaves himself open to having everyone else's prejudices foisted upon him.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 08:46 - Nov 21 with 1582 viewsBent_double

You're absoutely right, I mentioned this in a thread about the debate the other day.

It's weird, almost childish, how people demand to know which 'side' he is on - the important, and clear message is that the Labour party would give the people two clear options if they come to power: a deal to leave, or remain. After that it's down to individuals to vote for whatever they want to happen.

It would be the same for BJ or any other of the party leaders - I personally don't care how they would vote if there was another referendum, just that they are capable of getting the job done one way or the other.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 08:49 - Nov 21 with 1570 viewsDarth_Koont

It's also a bad way to promote it as an approach at achieving some form of compromise (and a step back from the binary cliff face we've reached of Revoke or Hard/No deal Brexit).

Saying which way you'd already vote on a new deal, sight unseen, rather defeats the intended purpose of compromise, open-mindedness and giving people a free and fair choice in a second referendum.
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Corbyn on Brexit on 08:55 - Nov 21 with 1543 viewsGuthrum

Because when you have an issue that people have become fanatically polarised about, any hint of compromise or nuance is seen as weakness.

In revolutions, the moderates get shot by both sides.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:10 - Nov 21 with 1508 viewshampstead_blue

Assuming he wins (god help us)......he will then lead the government in re-negotiating a deal.

If he is a remainer then there is a huge conflict of interest. He clearly would find it impossible to be part of the negotiations.We've seen what happens when remainers negotiate, we get the framework of the deal we have now.

I think he needs to be clear.
If he is a remainer then the future negotiations will be compromised and he would have duped voters to get into power.

I think he is for remain. If he came out that way he would lose the Labour leave vote in a heartbeat. He cannot come out truthfully as it will hand the next 5 years to BJ.

He's stuck in a hole but I think needs to be honest.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:11 - Nov 21 with 1499 viewsDanTheMan

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:10 - Nov 21 by hampstead_blue

Assuming he wins (god help us)......he will then lead the government in re-negotiating a deal.

If he is a remainer then there is a huge conflict of interest. He clearly would find it impossible to be part of the negotiations.We've seen what happens when remainers negotiate, we get the framework of the deal we have now.

I think he needs to be clear.
If he is a remainer then the future negotiations will be compromised and he would have duped voters to get into power.

I think he is for remain. If he came out that way he would lose the Labour leave vote in a heartbeat. He cannot come out truthfully as it will hand the next 5 years to BJ.

He's stuck in a hole but I think needs to be honest.


"If he is a remainer then there is a huge conflict of interest. He clearly would find it impossible to be part of the negotiations."

I mean that demonstrably false given Theresa May also campaigned to remain and still negotiated a deal.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:15 - Nov 21 with 1481 viewsGuthrum

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:10 - Nov 21 by hampstead_blue

Assuming he wins (god help us)......he will then lead the government in re-negotiating a deal.

If he is a remainer then there is a huge conflict of interest. He clearly would find it impossible to be part of the negotiations.We've seen what happens when remainers negotiate, we get the framework of the deal we have now.

I think he needs to be clear.
If he is a remainer then the future negotiations will be compromised and he would have duped voters to get into power.

I think he is for remain. If he came out that way he would lose the Labour leave vote in a heartbeat. He cannot come out truthfully as it will hand the next 5 years to BJ.

He's stuck in a hole but I think needs to be honest.


Except that Corbyn is not personally a Remainer and never has been. He is of the (Bennite) school that the EU is of benefit to international capitalists, not the workers, so is a bad thing.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:22 - Nov 21 with 1439 viewsDarth_Koont

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:15 - Nov 21 by Guthrum

Except that Corbyn is not personally a Remainer and never has been. He is of the (Bennite) school that the EU is of benefit to international capitalists, not the workers, so is a bad thing.


I wonder if he's softened greatly on that. Given how the past decade has shown that workers, citizens and the environment need EU protection against the pretty extreme neoliberal forces that are in power. And even if there's a more progressive change of government, they will continue to hover around waiting for any future Conservative government.

The right wing of the Conservative party and its driving force seems to be a bit of a death cult.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2019 9:23]
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:23 - Nov 21 with 1435 viewsC_HealyIsAPleasure

Because

1) Brexit is quite obviously a significant topic and one large numbers of the country feel quite strongly about one way or another. Therefore it isn’t unreasonable to expect a potential leader of the country to be able to confirm where they stand on it

2) More importantly, and whether you agree with the above or not, the neutral position is killing Labour politically, losing voters who feel strongly on both sides of the coin to the Lib Dems and Tories/Brexit Party, depending on their preference

I’ve noted before that Labour are demanded whichever way they fall on this, however I can’t help but feel the sit on the fence approach is the worst of all worlds

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:26 - Nov 21 with 1419 viewsBasuco

Agree 100%, Boris has not started yet on negotiations regarding free movement, working within EU zone (us), import/export tariffs and much more. He has not got a deal that will be rubber stamped in January, the next government will negotiating all this for the next 7 - 10 years or so. By stating that Labour will see exactly what the actual deal is and then putting it back to the electorate. If the UK crash out with no deal and we could then find huge price increases on many day to day goods, we could find things are cheaper and better, but at the moment we have no idea and nor does Boris.
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:31 - Nov 21 with 1380 viewsGlasgowBlue

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:22 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont

I wonder if he's softened greatly on that. Given how the past decade has shown that workers, citizens and the environment need EU protection against the pretty extreme neoliberal forces that are in power. And even if there's a more progressive change of government, they will continue to hover around waiting for any future Conservative government.

The right wing of the Conservative party and its driving force seems to be a bit of a death cult.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2019 9:23]


Corbyn is playing the Remainers for mugs again. There is no way he can negotiate a deal with the EU, sign it, then say "this deal I've secured is rubbish, don't support it". If in government, Labour's formal position will have to be Leave.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:34 - Nov 21 with 1368 viewsJon_456

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:23 - Nov 21 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

Because

1) Brexit is quite obviously a significant topic and one large numbers of the country feel quite strongly about one way or another. Therefore it isn’t unreasonable to expect a potential leader of the country to be able to confirm where they stand on it

2) More importantly, and whether you agree with the above or not, the neutral position is killing Labour politically, losing voters who feel strongly on both sides of the coin to the Lib Dems and Tories/Brexit Party, depending on their preference

I’ve noted before that Labour are demanded whichever way they fall on this, however I can’t help but feel the sit on the fence approach is the worst of all worlds


Exactly that.

Because I probably won’t vote labour, to me it’s not important to know what side he’s on. But people have very strong views on Brexit one way or another and so it’s only going to harm labour by not addressing this issue.

If I wanted to remain I’d vote Lib Dem and if I wanted to leave I’d vote tories. If your main issue for this election is Brexit (whether you’re remain/leave), why would you vote labour when you don’t know what the outcome would be?
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:44 - Nov 21 with 1309 viewsLankHenners

It shouldn’t matter at all what he personally thinks but people have got themselves so stirred up about a lack of personal position that it’s, wrongly, become a big issue which is harming his support.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:46 - Nov 21 with 1303 views26_Paz

Do you not find it strange that a man who wants to be Prime Minster point blank refuses to fully reveal his stance on the most important political decision of the generation?
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:49 - Nov 21 with 1289 viewsGuthrum

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:22 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont

I wonder if he's softened greatly on that. Given how the past decade has shown that workers, citizens and the environment need EU protection against the pretty extreme neoliberal forces that are in power. And even if there's a more progressive change of government, they will continue to hover around waiting for any future Conservative government.

The right wing of the Conservative party and its driving force seems to be a bit of a death cult.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2019 9:23]


Because you can do all of that better yourself, without the capitalist elements. Which is why he wants to pick and choose certain bits for the future relationship with the EU and not others.

Possibly he would prefer to establish a new international workers organisation. Corbyn is something of a Trotskyite - in the literal, not the perjorative sense.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:51 - Nov 21 with 1276 viewsPinewoodblue

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:31 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

Corbyn is playing the Remainers for mugs again. There is no way he can negotiate a deal with the EU, sign it, then say "this deal I've secured is rubbish, don't support it". If in government, Labour's formal position will have to be Leave.


Corbyn is in a similar position to Cameron he won't get anywhere with the EU. He will not come back with anything worth putting to the people so will have to support remain.

This would split the party.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:51 - Nov 21 with 1273 viewsDarth_Koont

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:23 - Nov 21 by C_HealyIsAPleasure

Because

1) Brexit is quite obviously a significant topic and one large numbers of the country feel quite strongly about one way or another. Therefore it isn’t unreasonable to expect a potential leader of the country to be able to confirm where they stand on it

2) More importantly, and whether you agree with the above or not, the neutral position is killing Labour politically, losing voters who feel strongly on both sides of the coin to the Lib Dems and Tories/Brexit Party, depending on their preference

I’ve noted before that Labour are demanded whichever way they fall on this, however I can’t help but feel the sit on the fence approach is the worst of all worlds


Because this approach to Brexit is giving people a fair and realistic choice. Rather than the country being trapped into discussing extremes.

As the sponsor of that approach and negotiator, it defeats the purpose to say you've already decided what you're going to back. In any case we know that a number of Labour MPs and members want Brexit and that's why the compromise approach is needed, as much as it gives both sides of the public a common way forward.

Really not sure what people are struggling to get here. As we know there are no simple answers to Brexit and the state we've gotten ourselves into. Pretending there are easy answers (and now one easy answer depending on which side you're on!) has been the problem from the start of this. The politicians have just been playing politics with us.
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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:56 - Nov 21 with 1254 viewshampstead_blue

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:11 - Nov 21 by DanTheMan

"If he is a remainer then there is a huge conflict of interest. He clearly would find it impossible to be part of the negotiations."

I mean that demonstrably false given Theresa May also campaigned to remain and still negotiated a deal.


"I mean that demonstrably false given Theresa May also campaigned to remain and still negotiated a deal."

Actually that is my point. May was conflicted and compromised from the start. Her team were also remainers.

Corbyn I fear is now more a remainer, but it's really hard to call. Because he is so non-commital you can never tell. That's poor leadership.
He is also campaigning on a platform where people don't know what he will do. Disingenuous.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:56 - Nov 21 with 1254 viewsElephantintheRoom

Corbyn on Brexit on 08:39 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

We didn’t have a referendum to join in 1973. We had a leave v remain referendum in 1975.

Ted Heath campaigned for remain.

Btw Ted Heath wasn’t leader of HMO when we had the referendum, Thatcher was and she campaigned for remain.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2019 8:43]


As I remember, Labour were in power in 1975 and the referendum was based on what it was like being in the EU (which we then knew) v what it was like NOT being in the EU (which we also knew). Labour was as badly split at the time as it is now - but that is irrelevant if you are asking 'the people' to make a decision. As the UK was very much the poor relation of Europe back than it was an easy decision to make.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 09:56 - Nov 21 with 1253 viewsDarth_Koont

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:49 - Nov 21 by Guthrum

Because you can do all of that better yourself, without the capitalist elements. Which is why he wants to pick and choose certain bits for the future relationship with the EU and not others.

Possibly he would prefer to establish a new international workers organisation. Corbyn is something of a Trotskyite - in the literal, not the perjorative sense.


Maybe ... my point remains that the long-term protection is the key here. We have a very large and powerful minority of committed deregulators in this country that are never far from power.

The last decade and particularly the last few years of swivel-eyed lunacy in the UK and the US should have shifted a few perceptions.
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Corbyn on Brexit on 10:01 - Nov 21 with 1229 viewsPinewoodblue

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:46 - Nov 21 by 26_Paz

Do you not find it strange that a man who wants to be Prime Minster point blank refuses to fully reveal his stance on the most important political decision of the generation?


Not really he has already gone on record saying he finds the prospect of being PM daunting.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 10:02 - Nov 21 with 1222 viewsDarth_Koont

Corbyn on Brexit on 09:31 - Nov 21 by GlasgowBlue

Corbyn is playing the Remainers for mugs again. There is no way he can negotiate a deal with the EU, sign it, then say "this deal I've secured is rubbish, don't support it". If in government, Labour's formal position will have to be Leave.


I see you've been looking into your clay ball of prophesy again.

Are you mentally incapable of understanding how you can look for the best deal but then decide in the end it's not worth "buying"?

Or just being an obtuse political fanboy?
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Corbyn on Brexit on 10:07 - Nov 21 with 1198 viewsPinewoodblue

Corbyn on Brexit on 10:02 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont

I see you've been looking into your clay ball of prophesy again.

Are you mentally incapable of understanding how you can look for the best deal but then decide in the end it's not worth "buying"?

Or just being an obtuse political fanboy?


Think you need to pull back a bit. You need to remember you are only expressing an opinion, not fàcts.

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Corbyn on Brexit on 10:15 - Nov 21 with 1179 viewsNo9

The policy to joiun Europe was set out in the tory manifesto for the 1970 GE-
This is the wording in the manifesto:-
"If we can negotiate the right terms, we believe that it would be in the long-term interest of the British people for Britain to join the European Economic Community, and that it would make a major contribution to both the prosperity and the security of our country. The opportunities are immense. Economic growth and a higher standard of living would result from having a larger market."

Harold Wilson was pushed into a Referendum largley by the Liberals who held a Mock Referendum in what is now the Waveney constituency

Harold Wilson mainly kept of of the debates and campaigns for the referendum which is probably what Mr Corbyn should have done but, our politicians are leanign more to presidential style elections.
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