| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... 12:56 - Dec 3 with 5437 views | monytowbray |
I beg you to watch this and tell me why you’re still going to do so.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/68553-001
This is a serious request.
Watch it and tell me why you still feel justified in your actions. I am genuinely curious. I want to know what makes 1 in 3 children living that way okay with you. Tell me what makes you happy about the fact the current regime believes the people in this documentary are lazy and have no one to blame but themselves. Tell me these people have the same opportunities everyone in this country have and they’re simply not taking advantage of them because they want the moon on a stick.
Thank you. [Post edited 3 Dec 2019 12:57]
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:09 - Dec 3 with 843 views | footers |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:01 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
So you have deduced from me saying "I don't defend the use of that language" that i would be someone who would go around using that language. Hmmmm. |
You just seem to spend a lot of your time defending that language, so your point seems a little off to me.
If you'd like to post the quotes, in context, along with reasons you don't find them bigoted, then please do :)
If you are so unafraid of such words, maybe you should say them more. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:16 - Dec 3 with 822 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:45 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
I wouldn't say repeatedly. The same 3 phrases have been repeatedly trotted out, is more accurate. If you read more carefully i don't defend the use of the language, nor do i say Mr Johnson is not a racist. I merely pose the question is he racist, just because he has used that language in that context. I'm sure i used what would be deemed racist language when i was younger but i wasn't and will never be racist, in my humble opinion. I don't see why we should shut down the debate. |
Answer: yes. Playing to stereotypes to influence opinion against a group on the basis of their race is definitely racist.
So now we can all move on.
Yes Callis, it’s a shameful state of affairs. We shouldn’t be in this position in the 5th richest country in the world. What’s worse is the total disrespect shown to British citizens by the current government (and their parents in some cases).
Labour made great strides in reducing poverty under Blair, but progress stalled under Brown. But at no point do I remember them blaming the poor for starving, or being made homeless or burning to death in unsafe tenement blocks. What’s even worse worse, is that these views are seen as vote winners. What does that say about society? |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:18 - Dec 3 with 817 views | Trequartista |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:45 - Dec 3 by monytowbray |
And what is the truth behind Johnson calling PoC “Piccaninnies with watermelon smiles” exactly? BANTZ?
Furthermore, what’s the context behind him refusing to apologise for it?
Am I missing something here? [Post edited 3 Dec 2019 20:47]
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There is a context to the article where those terms are used and it is a caricature of how African people should receive Tony Blair's save the world attitude to them. The context is there, he is not describing people ad hoc, whether you buy that as a defensible to use those terms in that context is another matter. Incidentally I don't but you've already concluded I do just by me raising the topic. You're not the only one who has done that to be fair.
So in asking the question, and pointing out the context, i get a flood of knee-jerk reactions saying i defend the comments, i defend the language, I defend Jognon |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:23 - Dec 3 with 811 views | Herbivore |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:18 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
There is a context to the article where those terms are used and it is a caricature of how African people should receive Tony Blair's save the world attitude to them. The context is there, he is not describing people ad hoc, whether you buy that as a defensible to use those terms in that context is another matter. Incidentally I don't but you've already concluded I do just by me raising the topic. You're not the only one who has done that to be fair.
So in asking the question, and pointing out the context, i get a flood of knee-jerk reactions saying i defend the comments, i defend the language, I defend Jognon |
That's not really fully accurate. Whilst the article it's from is about Blair, he's describing how the Queen is greeted when she visits Africa. You're adding context that doesn't really exist in order to defend him. I'm not sure why. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:24 - Dec 3 with 810 views | Trequartista |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:08 - Dec 3 by wkj |
Is defending those who use it really all that different? I don't think it really is. |
A fair point, but considering i haven't defended Johnson either, the point is moot. I merely asked "is that really racist". Maybe i think the answer is yes. The blizzard of knee-jerk reactions have already decided i think no. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:30 - Dec 3 with 804 views | Trequartista |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:23 - Dec 3 by Herbivore |
That's not really fully accurate. Whilst the article it's from is about Blair, he's describing how the Queen is greeted when she visits Africa. You're adding context that doesn't really exist in order to defend him. I'm not sure why. |
I'm not defending him, i'm saying there is a context there, that is being conveniently ignored even if I haven't got the details fully accurate (the queen makes more sense). I have even said that i don't think the context is enough to defend the use of the words, but go ahead make up things that i have said anyway. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:48 - Dec 3 with 798 views | Herbivore |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:30 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
I'm not defending him, i'm saying there is a context there, that is being conveniently ignored even if I haven't got the details fully accurate (the queen makes more sense). I have even said that i don't think the context is enough to defend the use of the words, but go ahead make up things that i have said anyway. |
But you are defending him. You're trying to suggest that context may mitigate his possible intention if not the words themselves. No context explains his choice of words in that article, he could easily have said the queen is always greeted by lots of people enthusiastically waving flags. Why use racist language to describe them? Why would that language even enter your mind when writing the article if you don't hold something of the corresponding attitude? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, mate. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:55 - Dec 3 with 787 views | Trequartista |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:48 - Dec 3 by Herbivore |
But you are defending him. You're trying to suggest that context may mitigate his possible intention if not the words themselves. No context explains his choice of words in that article, he could easily have said the queen is always greeted by lots of people enthusiastically waving flags. Why use racist language to describe them? Why would that language even enter your mind when writing the article if you don't hold something of the corresponding attitude? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, mate. |
I have said elsewhere that I don't think the context is enough to excuse the words in that example so no i am not defending him, I am merely pointing out that the context must be considered before making a judgement, not conveniently removed. I remember Frankie Boyle going to court to defend his use of the n-word because it was in the context of a joke. Would you question why that language even entered his mind? Would you defend him? (I suspect you do without even asking). I would because of the context. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:15 - Dec 3 with 773 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 19:30 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm a lifelong right of centre Tory voter but even I concede that the pendulum has swung too far to the right and this current incarnation of the Tory government is completely morally bankrupt and not deserving of votes from decent people.
The country needs a complete change of direction and if somebody like Kier Starmer or Hillary Benn was the leader of the opposition they would even have my vote.
But regardless of some of the aims of Corbyn to create a fairer society, his support of all manner of vile terror groups, his associations with antisemites, blood libelers and holocaust deniers, his lack of will to tackle the antisemtism crisis in the Labour party and his record of backing all things "anti west" precludes me from voting Labour.
The idea of people like John McDonnell, Jeremy Corbyn, Andy Murray, Seumus Milne, Diane Abbott, Len McCluskey and those lesser-known trots working with them getting anywhere near to grabbing control of Ten Downing Street, the Treasury, the Home Office, the Ministry of Defence, of Culture, of the Environment, MI6, MI5 and every other part of government and administration that you care to think about fills me with absolute dread. |
You’ve now apparently got 20/20 vision on the problems in this country despite enabling them and supporting them for decades. While still reserving your venom for those who said you were wrong all the time.
Do me a lemon. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:18 - Dec 3 with 766 views | footers |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:15 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont |
You’ve now apparently got 20/20 vision on the problems in this country despite enabling them and supporting them for decades. While still reserving your venom for those who said you were wrong all the time.
Do me a lemon. |
Selective amnesia is one hell of a drug.
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:26 - Dec 3 with 760 views | monytowbray |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:57 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
I didn't give any opinion, i was questioning your responses to others, and you have thus far not addressed this. It's all there in black and white.
The context of those terms in an written article, was how, in Johnson's opinion, Tony Blair saw these people. Before the cavalry come charging back in with their arrows, I am not defending Johnson, or the language used, I am making a point of an example where context can be ignored or claimed depending on whether it is convenient for the argument being made. |
Because asking someone to watch something and then provide their opinion is unreasonable?
I imagine if you linked me to something and I said I’m not going to look at it but still engage with said opinion you’d have a bloody field day. [Post edited 3 Dec 2019 22:29]
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:26 - Dec 3 with 760 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:08 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m not voting Tory either. |
Good for you but your response was on a thread for how anyone can defend voting Tory and your response finished with the paragraph that the idea of Corbyn getting anywhere close to power fills you with dread.
My point is that the current regime is far more dreadful and yet many seem to accept it and yet are horrified by the idea of Corbyn. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:26 - Dec 3 with 760 views | monytowbray |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:59 - Dec 3 by J2BLUE |
On one issue where you know the only answer decent people will have is to agree with you? As I said, this isn't a question on an exam paper. It's one issue within a much wider debate. |
So basically you’re annoyed that I might have a point? LOL. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:28 - Dec 3 with 759 views | Herbivore |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 21:55 - Dec 3 by Trequartista |
I have said elsewhere that I don't think the context is enough to excuse the words in that example so no i am not defending him, I am merely pointing out that the context must be considered before making a judgement, not conveniently removed. I remember Frankie Boyle going to court to defend his use of the n-word because it was in the context of a joke. Would you question why that language even entered his mind? Would you defend him? (I suspect you do without even asking). I would because of the context. |
I've considered the context and Boris Johnson is definitely a racist. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:32 - Dec 3 with 743 views | monytowbray |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:28 - Dec 3 by Herbivore |
I've considered the context and Boris Johnson is definitely a racist. |
If he keeps digging he might get lucky and come out at the other side the world when it’s probably easier to shout “Does anyone have a ladder please?” | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:34 - Dec 3 with 733 views | J2BLUE |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:26 - Dec 3 by monytowbray |
So basically you’re annoyed that I might have a point? LOL. |
No, i've voted Labour and agree with your general point. I just find it ridiculous to use this tactic because it proves nothing and is just a waste of time. IMO. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:46 - Dec 3 with 718 views | monytowbray |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:34 - Dec 3 by J2BLUE |
No, i've voted Labour and agree with your general point. I just find it ridiculous to use this tactic because it proves nothing and is just a waste of time. IMO. |
I’m not trying to prove anything. I asked a question. If anyone doesn’t like the fact it’s not an easy one to answer as it makes them question their own values or moral compass that’s their cross to carry. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:46 - Dec 3 with 717 views | Gogs |
With you all the way on this one Callis. Be interesting to see how many sensible answers you can get. |  | | |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:52 - Dec 3 with 710 views | monytowbray |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 22:46 - Dec 3 by Gogs |
With you all the way on this one Callis. Be interesting to see how many sensible answers you can get. |
So far not one has started with “I watched it and...” so we’re still at zero. | |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 06:38 - Dec 4 with 639 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 20:40 - Dec 3 by monytowbray |
I think “look at this evidence and tell me why you disagree” is a perfectly valid point to make. What’s weirder and more unhealthy is people who refuse to base their opinions on evidence. |
That video isn’t the only evidence though. In fact by your logic someone would have had to have consumed every single piece of evidence available before holding an opinion on who to vote for, which is impossible
J2 is right, it’s completely unreasonable to demand people spend an hour of their time watching something of their choosing and base their views solely on that |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 10:27 - Dec 4 with 592 views | ZedRodgers |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 19:30 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm a lifelong right of centre Tory voter but even I concede that the pendulum has swung too far to the right and this current incarnation of the Tory government is completely morally bankrupt and not deserving of votes from decent people.
The country needs a complete change of direction and if somebody like Kier Starmer or Hillary Benn was the leader of the opposition they would even have my vote.
But regardless of some of the aims of Corbyn to create a fairer society, his support of all manner of vile terror groups, his associations with antisemites, blood libelers and holocaust deniers, his lack of will to tackle the antisemtism crisis in the Labour party and his record of backing all things "anti west" precludes me from voting Labour.
The idea of people like John McDonnell, Jeremy Corbyn, Andy Murray, Seumus Milne, Diane Abbott, Len McCluskey and those lesser-known trots working with them getting anywhere near to grabbing control of Ten Downing Street, the Treasury, the Home Office, the Ministry of Defence, of Culture, of the Environment, MI6, MI5 and every other part of government and administration that you care to think about fills me with absolute dread. |
Quite confusing to hear you admit you were wrong whilst lambasting the people who have been consistently making this point. They were the very people resisting the swing of the pendulum you've been throwing your weight behind this entire time.
I may only have a distant Jewish relation in my family and it wouldn't be right for me to speak on behalf of minority communities, but in my opinion, the words of David Graeber here are much more coherent than your inane insinuations that Corbyn supports blood libel and the denial of the Holocaust.
You relentlessly accuse Labour of being more of a threat to Jewish people than the far right. Maybe one day you'll have to admit to being wrong about that too? [Post edited 4 Dec 2019 11:04]
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 11:39 - Dec 4 with 555 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 10:27 - Dec 4 by ZedRodgers |
Quite confusing to hear you admit you were wrong whilst lambasting the people who have been consistently making this point. They were the very people resisting the swing of the pendulum you've been throwing your weight behind this entire time.
I may only have a distant Jewish relation in my family and it wouldn't be right for me to speak on behalf of minority communities, but in my opinion, the words of David Graeber here are much more coherent than your inane insinuations that Corbyn supports blood libel and the denial of the Holocaust.
You relentlessly accuse Labour of being more of a threat to Jewish people than the far right. Maybe one day you'll have to admit to being wrong about that too? [Post edited 4 Dec 2019 11:04]
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Glassers' recent record isn't great when it comes to voting, having left the political party he voted for and changed his opinion on Brexit, that he also voted for.
The video, BTW, is excellent. Well said that guy. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 08:28 - Dec 5 with 473 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 10:27 - Dec 4 by ZedRodgers |
Quite confusing to hear you admit you were wrong whilst lambasting the people who have been consistently making this point. They were the very people resisting the swing of the pendulum you've been throwing your weight behind this entire time.
I may only have a distant Jewish relation in my family and it wouldn't be right for me to speak on behalf of minority communities, but in my opinion, the words of David Graeber here are much more coherent than your inane insinuations that Corbyn supports blood libel and the denial of the Holocaust.
You relentlessly accuse Labour of being more of a threat to Jewish people than the far right. Maybe one day you'll have to admit to being wrong about that too? [Post edited 4 Dec 2019 11:04]
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You’re right zed. It wouldn't be right for you to speak on behalf of the British Jewish community. That would be the job of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
And the Chief Rabbi
Your engagement in tokenism is every bit as objectionable as those people who hold up Trump supporters from ethnic minority backgrounds in order to defend a trump from charges of racism. I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who pointed out how tokenism is a form of racism.
She’s right. Tokenism is a careful cherry-picking of an underrepresented group to give the appearance that the group overall supports your cause. When applied to African Americans, tokenism is racist. When applied to Jews as tokens, it is a form of anti-Semitism. |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 08:44 - Dec 5 with 462 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 08:28 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue |
You’re right zed. It wouldn't be right for you to speak on behalf of the British Jewish community. That would be the job of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
And the Chief Rabbi
Your engagement in tokenism is every bit as objectionable as those people who hold up Trump supporters from ethnic minority backgrounds in order to defend a trump from charges of racism. I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who pointed out how tokenism is a form of racism.
She’s right. Tokenism is a careful cherry-picking of an underrepresented group to give the appearance that the group overall supports your cause. When applied to African Americans, tokenism is racist. When applied to Jews as tokens, it is a form of anti-Semitism. |
No leaders....f@ck'em!! |  |
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| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 11:09 - Dec 5 with 439 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Tories of TWTD or those refusing to tactically vote this election.... on 08:28 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue |
You’re right zed. It wouldn't be right for you to speak on behalf of the British Jewish community. That would be the job of the Board of Deputies of British Jews
And the Chief Rabbi
Your engagement in tokenism is every bit as objectionable as those people who hold up Trump supporters from ethnic minority backgrounds in order to defend a trump from charges of racism. I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who pointed out how tokenism is a form of racism.
She’s right. Tokenism is a careful cherry-picking of an underrepresented group to give the appearance that the group overall supports your cause. When applied to African Americans, tokenism is racist. When applied to Jews as tokens, it is a form of anti-Semitism. |
Is this the same Chief Rabbi who considers Boris Johnson as a close friend? | |
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