| This Country is not democratic 10:28 - Dec 7 with 4456 views | Kropotkin123 |
and I do not recognise the forthcoming election results. They are rigged in favour of increasing the majority's share over the minority.
Last election it took roughly 40k people to vote in one conservative MP. Whereas it took almost 200k to vote in a Liberal democrat MP, 550k to vote in a Green MP and UKIP didn't get a single seat with 600k votes.
Based on a 650 seater house, the Conservatives got 42 MPs more than the population wanted. Labour got 2 MPs more than they deserved. Liberal Democrats got 36 less than they should have, Greens got 10 less than they should have and UKIP should have had 12.
This will be repeated time and again because the main benefactors each time don't want a democratic system. They want the system that maximises their position. |  |
| |  |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:00 - Dec 7 with 786 views | Trequartista |
| This Country is not democratic on 16:53 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
And? |
If you're averaging 40% in every seat, you're going to be breaking through other parties strongholds, and the seats are going to be higher than your percentage vote rather than lower. It is the system, not the particular parties that cause this. |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:02 - Dec 7 with 780 views | Herbivore |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:00 - Dec 7 by Trequartista |
If you're averaging 40% in every seat, you're going to be breaking through other parties strongholds, and the seats are going to be higher than your percentage vote rather than lower. It is the system, not the particular parties that cause this. |
I think you underestimate the impact of gerrymandering and the way that voters are distributed. |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:05 - Dec 7 with 774 views | BloomBlue |
| This Country is not democratic on 13:53 - Dec 7 by WeWereZombies |
Excuse me but Leave votes were only thirty seven and a half percent of the registered electorate. |
But if people didnt vote that is their choice and therefore by default aren't counted |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:26 - Dec 7 with 765 views | Trequartista |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:02 - Dec 7 by Herbivore |
I think you underestimate the impact of gerrymandering and the way that voters are distributed. |
They exist (e.g. Whitton and Castle Hill lumped into in the Central Suffolk constituency gives the Tories more chance in Ipswich), but I think you overestimate them when another party is on 40%.
I doubt we'll ever see the LibDems hitting 40% to prove who is right. | |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:31 - Dec 7 with 755 views | WeWereZombies |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:05 - Dec 7 by BloomBlue |
But if people didnt vote that is their choice and therefore by default aren't counted |
The Leave 'victory' was not convincing and is certainly not the will of the people. only of some of the people. And it has had to be shored up to a disgraceful degree by bought for media. Time to give so called Brexit a rest and see if a valid Leave campaign can be formulated some time in the future.
It is pretty clear that the current formulation is not going to work and is still going to take years before a sensible trade agreement is reached. Anyone who is fed up with hearing about Brexit should vote Lib Dem and hope for them to become the party that has the deciding power after the election, then Article 50 can be revoked and all of the things that should have been attended to over the last three and a half years can be caught up with. |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:34 - Dec 7 with 754 views | GaryCooper |
You have omitted the largest non democratic problem, less than one million Scots elected 35 MP's. |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:39 - Dec 7 with 742 views | GaryCooper |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:31 - Dec 7 by WeWereZombies |
The Leave 'victory' was not convincing and is certainly not the will of the people. only of some of the people. And it has had to be shored up to a disgraceful degree by bought for media. Time to give so called Brexit a rest and see if a valid Leave campaign can be formulated some time in the future.
It is pretty clear that the current formulation is not going to work and is still going to take years before a sensible trade agreement is reached. Anyone who is fed up with hearing about Brexit should vote Lib Dem and hope for them to become the party that has the deciding power after the election, then Article 50 can be revoked and all of the things that should have been attended to over the last three and a half years can be caught up with. |
Yet the remainers on here seem to be solidly behind Labour, now that is just plain daft. | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:45 - Dec 7 with 730 views | Herbivore |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:34 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
You have omitted the largest non democratic problem, less than one million Scots elected 35 MP's. |
*fewer | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| This Country is not democratic on 17:48 - Dec 7 with 726 views | HARRY10 |
That is flawed because it presumes that voting pattern would be replicated on a PR vote. |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:51 - Dec 7 with 723 views | HARRY10 |
| This Country is not democratic on 16:53 - Dec 7 by Clapham_Junction |
Proportional representation has several forms, one of which is open list proportional representation, where you vote for a party and then for the individual candidates on that party's list. Seats are then allocated based on parties' share of the vote and then the number of votes received by each candidate of the parties that won seats. This system is used in several countries.
This mistaken assumption seems to come up almost every time PR is discussed. |
That system is not underrstood by those clammouring for PR. Their view is that PR will fix all ills, and they can go back to deluding themselves that as long as they vote how they are told all will be well.
It is the lack of engagement, not the system. | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:53 - Dec 7 with 721 views | Darth_Koont |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:39 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
Yet the remainers on here seem to be solidly behind Labour, now that is just plain daft. |
It's not daft if they're ultimately the only realistic option for Remain via a second referendum.
Voting for the LibDems in a Labour/Conservative or SNP/Conservative marginal is certainly plain daft. As is voting Labour where other parties have the only realistic chance of stopping a Tory MP. |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:55 - Dec 7 with 718 views | HARRY10 |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:39 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
Yet the remainers on here seem to be solidly behind Labour, now that is just plain daft. |
or rather proves my point that voters will simply coalece around either side of the political divide | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:02 - Dec 7 with 706 views | SonOfSpock |
This is one of the reasons that I have become a member of the SDP. One of their main policies is adoption of PR as well as being centrist.
Ironically, they can't start the process until they get MPs elected under FPTP.. |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:08 - Dec 7 with 697 views | GaryCooper |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:53 - Dec 7 by Darth_Koont |
It's not daft if they're ultimately the only realistic option for Remain via a second referendum.
Voting for the LibDems in a Labour/Conservative or SNP/Conservative marginal is certainly plain daft. As is voting Labour where other parties have the only realistic chance of stopping a Tory MP. |
Rubbish, vote Liberal to revoke article 50, JC is a firm leaver. | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:08 - Dec 7 with 696 views | BloomBlue |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:31 - Dec 7 by WeWereZombies |
The Leave 'victory' was not convincing and is certainly not the will of the people. only of some of the people. And it has had to be shored up to a disgraceful degree by bought for media. Time to give so called Brexit a rest and see if a valid Leave campaign can be formulated some time in the future.
It is pretty clear that the current formulation is not going to work and is still going to take years before a sensible trade agreement is reached. Anyone who is fed up with hearing about Brexit should vote Lib Dem and hope for them to become the party that has the deciding power after the election, then Article 50 can be revoked and all of the things that should have been attended to over the last three and a half years can be caught up with. |
But revoking article 50 would destroy this country as you would split this country in half | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:08 - Dec 7 with 697 views | BlueForYou |
If we has PR then every Parliament would be just like the hung Parliament of the last two years with the same frustrations & worse as we have endured already! |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:15 - Dec 7 with 686 views | Darth_Koont |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:08 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
Rubbish, vote Liberal to revoke article 50, JC is a firm leaver. |
Churchman ... can you advise here?
For the sake of the discussion, I think you're talking plop. The LibDems can't win, except in a couple of dozen seats max. So Article 50 just won't be revoked straight off. | |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:33 - Dec 7 with 676 views | HARRY10 |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:08 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
Rubbish, vote Liberal to revoke article 50, JC is a firm leaver. |
"Rubbish, vote Liberal to revoke article 50, JC is a firm leaver. "
so what, he is one vote among many and the presumption here is that voters stating that they are going to vote Labour are doing so purely on the basis of brexit | | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 19:31 - Dec 7 with 658 views | bournemouthblue |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:39 - Dec 7 by GaryCooper |
Yet the remainers on here seem to be solidly behind Labour, now that is just plain daft. |
It's the most sensible options towards remain
Unless you're in a Constituency where the Lib Dems are a genuine contender, it is undeniably a wasted vote |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 20:35 - Dec 7 with 633 views | Pinewoodblue |
| This Country is not democratic on 19:31 - Dec 7 by bournemouthblue |
It's the most sensible options towards remain
Unless you're in a Constituency where the Lib Dems are a genuine contender, it is undeniably a wasted vote |
f you are uncomfortable with the policies/ personnel of the two major parties and you feel that what the LibDems stand for waht you believe in then a vote isn't wasted. Well at least no more than say voting Labour is South Suffolk or Conservative in Islington.
If you want to guarantee your vote stands a good chance of making a difference mover to a swing constiuency, such as Ipswich. |  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 22:39 - Dec 7 with 612 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This Country is not democratic on 16:12 - Dec 7 by Trequartista |
FPTP is still a democratic system, it's just not the democratic system you (or I) prefer. Both have advantages and disadvantages, you've just listed the disadvantages of the system you don't like. |
FPTP is a bit like the old union block vote, which the Tories said was anti-democratic and so forced a one man, one vote policy on the unions (which I agree with by the way)... [Post edited 7 Dec 2019 22:40]
|  |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 22:49 - Dec 7 with 607 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This Country is not democratic on 17:51 - Dec 7 by HARRY10 |
That system is not underrstood by those clammouring for PR. Their view is that PR will fix all ills, and they can go back to deluding themselves that as long as they vote how they are told all will be well.
It is the lack of engagement, not the system. |
The lack of engagement occurs because the votes of the people who do not vote for the winning candidate do not count for anything going forward - if 40% of a constituency vote and the remaining 60% is shared amongst other candidates, does that mean the Tory is the candidate most people want?
In my view every vote should have some representation in Parliament - that is not the case now, and one of the main reasons why voters are disengaged. | |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 22:51 - Dec 7 with 603 views | Churchman |
| This Country is not democratic on 18:15 - Dec 7 by Darth_Koont |
Churchman ... can you advise here?
For the sake of the discussion, I think you're talking plop. The LibDems can't win, except in a couple of dozen seats max. So Article 50 just won't be revoked straight off. |
Haha, if only I was bright enough to advise here, DK! Doh
I actually don’t think the point is rubbish. If by voting Labour and the candidate wins/ they get elected, offer a second referendum and Remain wins then the tactic works.
I think that the principle of tactical voting though is one of the reasons I am in favour of a form of proportional representation. For example, I live in the 6th safest Tory seat in the country. My sister lives in the 6th safest Labour seat. Our votes are wasted. She is left leaning but dislikes momentum/JC, I am very much left or right of centre depending on mood. The Liberals are hopeless, so neither of us have a vote that carries any value. Would I tactically vote? It’s possible but is it right? My belief is that first past the post feels outmoded and perhaps PR would force parties to work with each other.
Is FPP democratic? Yes to an extent. Is America democratic? Yep, more so than the UK in my view, but has produced a berk like Trump. No system is perfect, but can be improved, changed, reformed as it has been particularly since Cromwell and co 1640s.
Regarding Article 50, I wish Mrs May had had the nerve to revoke it this time last year. The potential negative impact of no deal/any deal was fully known by then, as was the impact of her ‘deal’. Not in the least bit realistic given politics, I know. |  | | |
| This Country is not democratic on 22:53 - Dec 7 with 602 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This Country is not democratic on 13:44 - Dec 7 by BloomBlue |
The only time any vote has resulted in a greater than 50% is the EU vote, which is why not leaving is undemocratic |
Unless it was a dead heat, any binary vote like the EU ref would have resulted in a larger than 50% vote for one of the options.... | |
| |
| This Country is not democratic on 22:56 - Dec 7 with 602 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| This Country is not democratic on 13:09 - Dec 7 by HARRY10 |
Nop. I have to disagree.
It is that lack of engagement that leads them to ill informed ideas that tell them the above. It is always someone else's fault.
It is the EU, the judiciary who are supposedly the enemies of the people, or the house of Lords.
However I have yet to meet anyone who bleats out this guff who has the slightest idea of what any of those do.
That their views are not heard is a myth. They are heard and dismissed as the idiotic bleats of the ill informed. |
You are rapidly becoming TWTD's expert in the use of the non sequitur.... | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
